Mark Foote

unite yin and yang fire and water, inverted who's to say what's real!

Gautama described his way of living as four arisings of mindfulness, sixteen thoughts initial and sustained, inhaling and exhaling. There were four connected with the mind, and I like I. B. Horner's translation for them: One trains oneself , thinking: ‘I will breathe in… breathe out experiencing thought… rejoicing in thought… concentrating thought… freeing thought.’ (MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III p 124) F. L. Woodward translates that last part as: Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276) In my experience, it's not possible to "free thought", or to "detach the mind", without first accepting and even "rejoicing" in thought.

best don't be that sure it will come around again that spot in the sun

A favorite, o brother by another mother, though I prefer the Weavers' rendition. Checking the history via Wikipedia: Alan Lomax published a completely different version, that he heard from a sailor called J.M. Hunt in 1935 We're sailing down the river from Liverpool[4] Heave away Santy Anno Around Cape Horn to Frisco Bay Along the plains of Mexico The Weavers made that: ... Around Cape Horn to Frisco Bay We're bound for Californio.

Now, where did it go? I can't say that I don't know how to use my mind

Old Europe, come home out the door without a hat you'll catch your death of

I would say the teachings attributed to Gautama in the first four Nikayas are an incomplete system toward the ending of suffering, when suffering arises. A complete system would be full of contradictions, as many of the later teachings are.

More like:

I would agree with that. The trick is, there's also a correlation between relaxation and stretch in the ligaments, more or less throughout the body but particularly in the lower body and along the spine. For a long time, I assumed that the ligaments could initiate activity in agonist/antagonist muscle groups. Western science only admits of the ability of the ligaments to influence muscular activity-- Here’s a summary of a study that confirms that some of the activity of the lower body is “regulated” by the iliosacral ligaments: This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability. (Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049 https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/) (Appendix–“For a Friend”, Revisited) In my experience, the stretch of ligaments seems to be a part of reciprocal innervation in paired muscle groups. Here's John Upledger's description of his experience lying on salt water in an isolation tank:: At some point my body began to make fish-like movements, as though my pelvis and legs were the lower part of a fish moving its tail from side to side. This movement was nice and easy. The neurophysiologist in me related these movements to an expression of what we call ‘reciprocal innervation’. The principle here is that, when your trunk is bent to the side in one direction past a certain threshold, the muscles on the other side of the trunk contract. In doing so, the nerve impulses are diverted from the side to which you are bent, and those muscles relax. Your trunk now bends in the opposite direction until that side-bending threshold is passed. The nerve impulses are then diverted again to the opposite side, causing muscle contraction and side bending in that direction. (“Your Inner Physician and You: Craniosacral Therapy and Somatoemotional Release”, John E. Upledger, p. 165) Shunryu Suzuki's description of shikantaza: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Progressive relaxation would be another preparatory practice. That's an important thing to keep in mind, if depth of concentration is said to be correlated with relaxation. Not that it isn't, but you can't get there from here. I haven't heard of Reggie Ray. I would say, jhana is about an evenness of stretch, a progressive evening of stretch. Is there tension in the body?--I would say yes, but at the same time, there's progressive relaxation. True that in Gautama's mindfulness, relaxation came before the calming of mental factors. I take the mental factors to be the senses involved in the perception of the precariousness of posture--a lot of that is listening to the stretch of ligaments. I haven't found the discernment of pain particularly helpful, other than as a caution and an impetus. I don't tend to sit on in pain. Mostly I sit 25's, in a sloppy half-lotus, but if I find a clear presence of mind with one-pointedness I will sit on to 35 or 40. Not doing too many zazenkai's or sesshins, these days (translation: none). Just sitting at home, morning and night.

When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added) Not possible to embody the free placement of attention through the exercise of will, or volition. I would say the embodiment of the free placement of attention is grace in action, and grace apart from action is just a concept.

As you've no doubt heard me write a million times now: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. When necessity places attention, attention takes place as a point, a point that can shift and move. About a decade ago, I wrote: If you do any seated or even standing meditation in the morning, you may see why I’m referring to the practice as “waking up and falling asleep”. In waking up, I am looking to relinquish my activity, and allow the place of mind to generate activity out of the stretch I find myself in. I have a description of the translations of motion in the lotus, yet in the end I am convinced that everything I need to know I learn by being where I am, as I am. I just have to be open to it. (Post: “I tried your practice last night”- humbleone, from “The Dao Bums”)

Gautama's insight into the nature of suffering, which is generally taken to be his enlightenment, apparently followed his attainment of the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving. Here's Gautama's description of his experience of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving": …[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152) Took him six years and two prior teachers to attain that cessation. I don't expect to attain it. For such as me, Gautama did speak of the mindfulness that made up his way of living as "something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides." That mindfulness appears to have been a particular pattern of thought initial and sustained, coupled with the experience of "one-pointedness". Part of that thought initial and sustained was "contemplating cessation I shall breath in; contemplating cessation I shall breathe out"--I would contend that the actual cessation of "doing something" with regard to the body in inhalation and exhalation, "doing something" by habit or volition, was at least an occasional part of his way of living. Shunryu Suzuki described the cessation of "doing something" with regard to the body as "just sitting". I would have to guess that "just sitting" was a regular part of Shunryu Suzuki's practice on the cushion, and that he could invoke the same kind of experience through his mindfulness in daily living.

“So I, … being liable to birth because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to birth, seeking the unborn, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the unborn, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana; being liable to ageing because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to ageing, seeking the unageing, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the unageing, the uttermost security from the bonds; being liable to decay… won the undecaying; …liable to dying… won the undying; … liable to sorrow… won the unsorrowing… ; liable to stain because of self, having known the peril in what is liable to stain, seeking the stainless, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana–won the stainless, the uttermost security from the bonds–nibbana. Knowledge and Vision arose in me: unshakable is freedom for me, this is the last birth, there is not now again-becoming.” (MN I 167, Vol I p 211) Whatever … is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, [a person], thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling … perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future or present… [that person], thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. [For one] knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body. (MN III 18-19, Vol III p 68) As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized. (SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159) These are the secret words which the Living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote. And He said: Whoever finds the explanation of these words will not taste death. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p. 3 log. 1, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

Sorry for the premature entry, there! I'm a fan of Gautama's delineation of the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech, deed, and mind through the induction of successive states of concentration, and of his description of the fourth of the initial concentrations as the cessation of ("determinate thought" in the activity of the body in) inhalation and exhalation. Although he never said as much, the fact that he described the "further" states after he described the four initial states does imply that the cessation of the activity (the action by habit or volition) of the body precedes the cessation of the activity of mind. I left out your description of the union of Shakti/Siva in the central channel, as a prerequisite to the completion you describe in the paragraph above. For me, speaking of a union in the central channel implies the same kind of concern with the body as a prerequisite to mental or spiritual "completion" that Gautama had.

I like Gombrich too, but I agree with you that sometimes he believes he understands the teaching and I'm thinking he's gone off track. I do, however, believe Warder when he says that there's a reason the teachings in the fifth collection were placed there, historically. As I said, I'm happiest with the teachings that do not stress an "actual infinity", and the reason for that is that "actual infinities" give rise to contradictions, and I don't believe they are necessary to describe the critical facts about human nature that Gautama taught. Just for clarification, something I wrote before on the topic, apologies if you've already read it: Here’s a paragraph or two from Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematics: Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity–the number line’s promise of continuing forever–but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object. Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens. The mathematician Poincare sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, actual infinity): There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincare [Les mathematiques et la logique III, Rev. metaphys. morale (1906) p. 316]) I would say that the assumption of the existence of a completed infinite, as in “True Nature”, or “Dao”, or “God”, will result in contradictions, and such an assumption isn’t really required to benefit from the positive and substantive particulars in most of the wisdom teachings of the world.

Ah, very interesting. I have read a few of Corey's blog posts, in the past. I notice he wrote: The idea behind standing still in static positions, for instance with our arms holding an energetic ball around our chest or other positions, is that in order to be able to hold these positions for more than a few minutes, we have to completely relax. So our body has to find harmony, and we need to use our bodies as a unit in order to be able to stand there. Then we are holding our arms in place with our tanden (dantien) rather than the muscles in our arms and legs. Posture by virtue of one-pointedness (not so much the tanden per se) is something I experience more readily in sitting, but I'm working on it when I walk around the block, these days. He makes it sound like an everyday, relaxation kind-of-thing. Which it is, and the emphasis on complete relaxation is a beautiful part of the Chinese martial arts, for sure--nevertheless, for me it's more about the free placement of attention by necessity experienced in the movement of breath: If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness]. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Suzuki offered the analogy here in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor. In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body. The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”... (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

According to the consensus of the schools, the Sutta Pitaka was arranged in five agamas, 'traditions' (the usual term, but the Sthaviravadins more often call them nikayas, 'collections'). ... Ksudraka Agama (outside of the first four agamas there remained a number of texts regarded by all the schools as of inferior importance, either because they were compositions of followers of the Buddha and not the words of the Master himself, or because they were of doubtful authenticity... these were collected in this 'Minor Tradition'). ("Indian Buddhism", A. K. Warder, 2nd ed. p 202) Khuddaka Nikaya, Ksudraka Agama. On Warder: For a number of years, he was an active member of the Pali Text Society, which published his first book, Introduction to Pali, in 1963. He based this popular primer on extracts from the Dīgha Nikāya, and took the then revolutionary step of treating Pali as an independent language, not just a derivative of Sanskrit. His began his academic career at the University of Edinburgh in 1955, but in 1963 moved to the University of Toronto. There, as Chairman of the Department of East Asian Studies, he built up a strong programme in Sanskrit and South Asian studies. He retired in 1990. (WIkipedia) Zen folks particularly like that quote about the unborn. There are places in the first four agamas (nikayas) where the unborn is mentioned, but never quite in the same sweeping context as in that quote from the 5th. I actually take that as an example of the kind of incompleteness in Gautama's teaching that I applaud, that he mostly didn't go for the sweeping infinity as a completed entity, but only spoke of a contrast between the substantial and that which is empty of the substantial (as it were).

I do the standing posture that is part of the abbreviated Tai Chi form I learned. That form is the first part of the longer form that was taught by Cheng Man Ch'ing. I learned the abbreviated version from a student of a student of Cheng's, who taught it free in a local park every Saturday some years ago. I especially do it when I get up in the middle of the night, and don't feel fully awake. The arms angle out from the body about 15-20 degrees, the feet are squared to one another. That's an even-weighted posture, but I find that I begin to experience the left arm-right leg, right arm-left leg alternation of the Tai Chi form as I stand. Sometimes it feels natural to let the arms rise and return, as in the initial part of the form. I often wind up into the form, and sometimes the alternation continues arm to hip one side and then the other, whether I am moving or not. Not the practice you're describing, I realize, but sometimes I will stand five or ten minutes. Very helpful to me at 3am, especially because it loosens my knees, for instances where I go on to sit.

Sometimes I dance with a wider step, like I'm jumping between rocks in a riverbed--does that count?

Can you describe what the practice consisted of?--just curious. Thanks, Vajra Fist!

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability. (Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049 https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/) That would say that ligaments have a role in the activity of nearby muscle groups. Cheng Man Ch'ing related three stages and nine levels in the development of ch'i, centered on the ligaments (I summarize the stages/levels down in the body of my post: A Way of Living) Gautama's analogy for the fourth concentration: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) Gautama also provided a second analogy for the fourth concentration, similar to the first but with cloth around the entire frame: Just …as if a (person) were sitting so wrapt from head to foot in a clean white robe, that there were no spot in (their) entire frame not in contact with the clean white robe—just so… does (a person) sit there, so suffusing even his body with that sense of purification, of translucence, of heart, that there is no spot in his whole frame not suffused therewith. (DN I 76, Pali Text Society Vol I p 86) I would say that's about an evenness in the stretch of ligaments throughout the body, that translates into a sensitivity of the dermatomes over the entire surface of the body. Physicians sometimes run a pin over a specific area on the surface of the skin, to determine whether or not nerve exits between specific vertebrae of the spine are impinged. Definition and charts of the dermatomes: Dermatomes are areas of skin on your body that rely on specific nerve connections on your spine. In this way, dermatomes are much like a map. The nature of that connection means that dermatomes can help a healthcare provider detect and diagnose conditions or problems affecting your spine, spinal cord or spinal nerves. (https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/24379-dermatomes) That's not to say the fascial tissue doesn't have a critical role in the evenness of stretch in ligaments throughout the body. Maybe as your article suggests, proprioception in the deep fascia tissue gets stimulated by the needles, and that proprioception informs the placement of attention, or more exactly the placement of attention through necessity experienced in the movement of breath. The placement of attention through necessity, and a sense of gravity wherever attention is placed, initiate the activity that results in an even stretch of ligaments throughout the body.

To me, that's one of the strong points of Gautama's lectures, in the first four Nikayas: they are incomplete. That's one of the reasons I don't rely on the lectures of his disciples in those Nikayas--the disciples appear in some cases to offer completions, to some of the things Gautama left incomplete, and I don't find their completions sound. Same for some of the lectures attributed to Gautama in the fifth Nikaya. Around the start of the twentieth century, there was an effort to put all of mathematics on an axiomatic basis, similar to Euclid developing all of his geometry from five initial axioms. Euclid succeeded, although he didn't realize that his fifth axiom wasn't really an axiom (through a given point, one and only one straight line parallel to a given line can be drawn--there are two other geometries that can be developed, one with no lines parallel to the given line, and one with an infinite number of lines parallel). The effort to put all of mathematics on an axiomatic basis, starting with some basic axioms of logic, was abandoned after Godel presented his two incompleteness theorems in the early 1930's: Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F which can neither be proved nor disproved in F. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent). (https://plato.stanford.edu/Entries/goedel-incompleteness/) I see the incompleteness in Gautama's teaching as a strength. I know, snowymountains, you were talking about his acceptance of some of the models of reality of his day, but I just thought I'd mention that as far as his dharma teachings, the incompleteness can be considered a strength. A system that is too complete, has inherent contradictions.

I’ve written about my approach: I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep. What's not obvious, there, is that I am taking what I consider to be the actionable elements from Gautama's description of mindfulness (of the mindfulness that made up his way of living). From mindfulness of the body: (One) trains (oneself), thinking, 'I will breathe in tranquillising the activity of body. (One) trains (oneself), thinking, 'I will breathe out tranquillising the activity of body. (MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society Vol III p 124, tr I. B. Horner; parentheticals added) From mindfulness of the feelings: Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe in. Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward) No good explanation have I found of the mental factors in Gautama's lectures. Buddhaghosa I think is way off track. My experience is along these lines: Seated meditation has been described as “straightening the chest and sitting precariously” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, by Cheng Man-Ch’ing, translated by Douglas Wile, pg 21.). Precariousness in posture gives rise to anxiety, yet if calm prevails, precariousness can bring forward the senses behind the feeling of place in awareness. The mental factors that I calm are the senses connected with the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception). From mindfulness of mind: Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward) And from mindfulness of states of mind: Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out. (ibid) The cessation that I contemplate is the cessation of "doing something" with regard to the movement of breath: I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom.

You are basing that on the distinction between initial and further jhanas, or...?

He just couldn't stand to be strange, so he chose to be a tall glass of water instead. Key point: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) "Meditating to relax" comes under the heading of "doing something", so you'd best cut that out. You could end up beating the stuffing out of that cushion (and stuffing the bleating into that tissue, key of C). Seriously, though: sympathies! I hope it was cathartic. (or was the topic a quote from someone else, on another thread?--I missed where the topic came from)