Mark Foote

Or as Arlo Guthrie sang, "if you didn't know about that one, well, then what else don't you know" (Presidential Rag). There's at least one sermon where Gautama disparages women. He claimed "stroking the sun and moon with the hand" as one of six miracles. A. K. Warder says that the first schism came about because the various orders couldn't agree on one of six points. They agreed on five out of six--for example, that Gautama's omniscience was limited to matters of the dharma, he was not omniscient about everything--that was one of the points of contention. The point they couldn't agree on was whether or not an arhant could be seduced by a succubus in his sleep. In other words, whether an enlightened man could have a wet dream. I sometimes ponder how that got worked around into how the "great path" was superior because the mahayanists were willing to suffer along with everyone else until everybody was enlightened. You know, have wet dreams, and such. And it's true, that in Gautama's teaching, only the arhants really cut off sensual desire and the other hindrances at the root. Everybody else had to keep working at it, because the hindrances would continue to grow--no spiritual Round-up. I personally owe Gautama an overwhelming debt, for his teachings about concentration and about his way of living, the mindfulness that constituted his way of living "most of the time, especially in the rainy season". I don't really find the past lives/future lives and the social and moral prescriptions, the four elements and all, that useful. The Bodhisattva vow is actually more useful to me, I'll have to give the Mahayanists credit on that. Oh, and on that transmission of the teaching to Kasayapa, the story of Gautama holding up a flower and Kasayapa wordlessly receiving the teaching. That story is cited to justify transmission outside of scripture in the Zen tradition. Well, there was a mandarava flower given to Kasayapa by a wondering ascetic, who informed Kasayapa that Gautama had died (the mandarava trees had started blooming out of season). Kasayapa proceeded to the town where Gautama lay on the funeral pyre, and I guess he must have collected Gautama's robe and bowl at that time. That story is in the paranibbana sutta--wordless transmission, indeed!

You miss my point. I believe that what you said, and if that's what your teacher said then what your teacher said, misrepresents the teaching in the first four Nikayas. That is why I have asked you to defend what you said, from Gautama's sermons in the four Nikayas, not from Buddhaghosa. Again, you misrepresent the teaching: Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)? Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. [And in the same way] as to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. (Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108) "Do now what it is time for you to do", as somebody once said.

You're saying that I simply have to accept what you say, or what your teacher has said, end of subject. Aren't we on Dao Bums to debate, to question, to provide what experience and resources we have to one another? Sometimes we lean on an understanding, we lean on a path and a teacher, I get that. Just seems odd, if that's the case, that you would be here at all. As I said somewhere, ChiDragon, the real alchemy to me is in according with my own nature--that is true immortality to me, and it's immortality that is the object of the internal alchemy, is it not? Gautama taught that zest ceases in the third concentration, while the feeling of ease continues: (One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ (Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147) That’s a recommendation of the third concentration, especially for long periods. Nevertheless, I find that the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention. As I wrote in my last post: When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration. Shunryu Suzuki said: To enjoy our life– complicated life, difficult life– without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco) I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom. ("To Enjoy Our Life")

Too bad, about that lack of citation. I'm removing my "like", ha ha! Then again, even if they had provided a citation: Nature 12 December 2023 More than 10,000 research papers were retracted in 2023 — a new record The number of articles being retracted rose sharply this year. Integrity experts say that this is only the tip of the iceberg. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-03974-8

Cite translations that accord with the Pali Text Society renditions, and we're good. You are here on Dao Bums to better your own understanding, are you not? You can disregard the quote from Koun Franz in my last post, doesn't change the rest. I only quoted him because I like his explanation of "one-pointedness", as the mind that moves away from the head. I think it's easier to find the "one-pointed" mind in the moments before falling asleep--I describe that in "Waking Up and Falling Sleep". Can you quote passages in the first four Nikayas, as sources for these statements? Or, are they your experience, or your teacher's experience? So far as I know, the concentrations that involve the extension of metta, mudita, and karuna are the further concentrations, and although Gautama doesn't explicitly say that the fourth concentration is a prerequisite to the further concentrations, he usually lists them after the fourth concentration. About those extensions, I have written: The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”: [One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I p 48) The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”. (The Early Record) I'm familiar with action of the body that depends on the extension of the mind of friendliness throughout the room and to the other side of the wall, but that's about it.

Gautama's experience of the stoppage of breath: So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears. When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body. Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain. But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind… (MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299) I'm saying if you haven't experienced the fourth jhana, you don't have the "fifth limb" of concentration (the "survey-sign") at your disposal in the first concentration. I see that you are trying to match up somebody's teachings with your experience. Why not Gautama's?

That moment when "the breath will momentarily stop"--that's the moment when necessity can place attention, such that the breath does not stop: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. So far as I know, the "survey-sign" follows the fourth concentration. Certainly, Gautama referred to it as the "fifth limb" of concentration. Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134) I'm not saying that the "survey-sign" can't be invoked in the first concentration. The fifteenth element of the mindfulness that Gautama described as his way of living was: "Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out." (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward) That cessation may or may not be "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" (or in plain English, "the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation")--the cessation which marks the fourth concentration. Makes sense to me that Gautama would practice to the fourth concentration and the sign of the concentration, then utilize the sign of the concentration to experience the cessation of the fourth concentration as appropriate in daily living. There's no concentration without one-pointedness: Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN V 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added) Here's Zen teacher Koun Franz's description of "one-pointedness of mind", although he doesn't identify it as such. He, too, talks about broadening the visual field: Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. ... I was taught we should be constantly aware of our eyes when we sit. Specifically, we should be aware of how we narrow and widen the aperture, how our field of vision gets narrower and narrower as our mind gets narrower and narrower. When you see that clearly, you also see how easily you can just open it up; the degree to which we open it up is the degree to which we’re here. (No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/) For me, the practice is more like: “… (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease.” (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused. If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease. ("To Enjoy Our Life")

“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.” “How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn’t have come here.” (Alice and The Cheshire Cat, from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll)

There's certainly a lot of lore out there, and you're right to consider most of it a waste of time (IMHO). I'm not ready to dismiss miracles altogether, though, and even if Olaf Blanke has demonstrated an ability to produce out-of-body sensations in test subjects by mechanical means, I'm not entirely sure that people haven't seen things that couldn't be seen from their physical location. I believe that it's possible for things outside the boundaries of the senses to effect the placement of my attention, and in some cases for activity to manifest from that location. When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. (Dogen, "Genjo Koan", tr Tanahashi)

Ow!--cut it out, Nungali, I know that's you!

Munroe would probably beg to differ with you, at least as far as the realm in which he pinched the person's buttocks. That's exactly what he was trying to verify, was his dream-like experience of floating and traveling and being at someone's house an experience of the real world, or of something else? He satisfied himself that it was this world, with that experiment. I think there are others that make the same claim, though I don't know that for sure. I myself have never been tempted to experiment with "lucid dreaming", with trying to separate some aspect of myself from the physical body and travel around.

Know your question was not directed to me, ChiDragon, but I can't resist. I'm not saying that cultivation isn't important, but I am saying that no amount of cultivation amounts to the jumping off required to realize activity purely out of the placement of attention from moment to moment. ...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”...

Rude! I was riffing off the Google translation of Taoist Text's Chinese excerpt. Was that excerpt not about alchemy? What I outlined is just according with my own nature, which is really the immortality that the alchemy is all about, IMHO. Here's Wikipedia on "The Golden Flower" (my emphasis): The Secret of the Golden Flower (Chinese: 太乙金華宗旨; pinyin: Tàiyǐ Jīnhuá Zōngzhǐ) is a Chinese Taoist book on neidan (inner alchemy) meditation, which also mixes Buddhist teachings with some Confucian thoughts. It was written by means of the spirit-writing (fuji) technique, through two groups, in 1688 and 1692. Here's a lovely illustration from "The Golden Flower"--now I would say this is an illustration of what I described as "finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments": "We'll just lay there by the juniper, while the moon is bright; and watch them jugs a fillin', in the pale moonlight."

You might find "Far Journeys" by Robert Monroe interesting. Monroe was an insurance salesman in New Jersey, who played around with self-hypnosis, and discovered he could go out of body. He kept journals. He reported experiences in three different planes, and in one of the experiences in this plane, he pinched somebody's bottom hundreds of miles from where he was and verified afterwards that they had a bruise there for no apparent reason. The most interesting thing about Monroe's experiences to me was how he got back into his body. For awhile he had difficulty returning, but he discovered that all he had to do was to become aware of his breathing, and he would be drawn back into his body.

It was "O at a D", if I recall, the O's at a distance. Or was that a funny...

Is you drew yet, soaring? I's passed.

It made sense to me. At least, some of it did!

Tertullian originated new theological concepts and advanced the development of early Church doctrine. He is perhaps most famous for being the first writer in Latin known to use the term trinity (Latin: trinitas). However, some of his teachings, such as the subordination of the Son and Spirit to the Father, were later rejected by the Church. He later apostasized and joined the Montanist sect. (Wikipedia, "Tertullian"). Montanism held views about the basic tenets of Christian theology similar to those of the wider Christian Church, but it was labelled a heresy for its belief in new prophetic figures. The prophetic movement called for a reliance on the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit and a more conservative personal ethic. (Wikipedia, "Montanism")

Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient: If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house. I also partly agree with the post by Nintendao: "If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed." Gautama spoke of a "station of consciousness": That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) My approach: Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move. I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me. (Waking Up and Falling Asleep) That's similar to the approach in lucid dreaming--a presence of mind must be retained in the moments before falling asleep, but unlike lucid dreaming, the idea here is to discover the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath, and retain a presence of mind with that placement as the placement shifts and moves. The necessity may be in the movement of breath itself, or with regard to support for the structure of the spine in the movement of breath. Actually, the necessity may even be coming from perceptions of things beyond the conscious boundaries of the senses, but that's another topic. On "the elixir will be knotted"--I recently outlined "the scales" of my practice, on my site--note that the attention placed by necessity in the movement of breath has a singular location, a "one-pointedness": ... the scales are: looking for a grip where attention takes place in the body, as “one-pointedness” turns and engenders a counter-turn (without losing the freedom of movement of attention); finding ligaments that control reciprocal innervation in the lower body and along the spine through relaxation, and calming the stretch of ligaments; and discovering hands, feet, and teeth together with “one-pointedness” (“bite through here”, as Yuanwu advised; “then we can walk together hand in hand”, as Yuanwu’s teacher Wu Tsu advised). When the necessity of the moment becomes the relaxation of muscles in the lower abdomen and the calming of the stretch of ligaments in the lower body, especially at the sacroiliac joints, there can be a sensation for which "knotted" is a colorful description. As to "It can be said that you never leave the house". Gautama spoke about four initial stages of concentration--I describe the way I experience the first three above, in my description of "scales" (like musical scales). As to the fourth: The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration. Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. Again, a [person], putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, [one] suffuses [one’s] body with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93; bracketed material paraphrases original) “Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. ...The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration... (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) And you never have to leave home, in that "the stage of concentration that lends itself to practice in the moment is dependent on the tendency toward the free placement of attention." My take: "I practice now to experience the free placement of attention as the sole source of activity in the body in the movement of breath, and in my “complicated, difficult” daily life, I look for the mindfulness that allows me to touch on that freedom" (“To Enjoy Our Life”).

For me, the first of the four truths precipitates the others. That is to say, Gautama did not always drink beer, but when he did, he drank "Four Truths" brand. When suffering is present, the other three of the four truths are equally valid and apply (when suffering is not present, no need to drink "Four Truths" brand).

Round and round, just now a bobbin without a yarn good thing I can't sew

Hi, Keith108, The thread you're looking for is "Haiku Unchained", that's here: I think Stigweard has passed away, but he left us his instructions for his "Haiku Chained" thread, in the first post: Stigweard The Janitor The Dao Bums 3,939 posts Posted January 11, 2008 Use the last line of the preceding haiku as the first line of yours. The structure is three lines: 5 syllables 7 syllables 5 syllables so there you have it. As is customary on the thread here, I will attempt a patch. not worth the penny flowers by the roadside, bright coots and ducks in reeds coots and ducks in reeds unseasonable warmth, here white snow has melted White snow has melted Moss and lichens revealed Round and round, just now _/|\_

Not-CT-but-rather-MF-sez: Gautama did speak of monks longing for the states of further-men, for the states of concentration, as a form of suffering.

Daniel, here's Gautama's description of the final attainment in his concentration, "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving"--check out the "disturbance that remains": …[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152) Six sensory fields, including the mind. The absence of the three cankers, no mention of any inner essence, no mention of any "doer" of action (action of speech, of the body in inhaling and exhaling, of the mind in feeling and perceiving). No actor that stands apart, no essence underlying. The thing itself. (I always forget that a particular combination of characters, left bracket s right bracket, will cause the Dao Bums mini-editor to score through all succeeding text, sorry about that in the initial post.)

I liked your post, Cobie, even though I couldn't read it. I've grown accustomed to your absences, at least I know you're present on the conversation!