Mark Foote

What are they, then? If I'm parsing stirling correctly, he's pointing to the lack of an abiding self in thought, and even in the consciousness that is aware of thought.

That's very respectful. My attitude toward teachers has been one of caution. Kobun Chino Otogawa once said, "take your time with the lotus". Closest I came was a five day sesshin, but I could only sit 35 in the lotus (the periods were alternately 40 and 30, for the most part). I really apologize to my seat mates, for having to revert to half or Burmese toward the end of the 40's, but I wanted to make my best effort. Maybe I should have attended the L. A. Zen Center, sesshin periods there are 35, last I checked (except for an initial sitting of 50). I guess the point I'm making is that I felt like there were issues I needed to overcome just to sit in the recommended posture for the standard period of time. They were issues that the teachers really didn't address, so I figured I'd have to teach myself (somehow). Come to find out, the teachers I admired, including Kobun, had been sitting since they were old enough to stand--in the lotus! Kobun described wrestling with his brothers at age 5, in the lotus. He said he could get in and out of the lotus without using his hands. At the end of a seven day sesshin, which I only sat two days of, he said he never experienced pain in the lotus. He felt funny telling his students how to approach the pain they had in their legs, since he didn't experience any. For him, that sesshin was the third seven-day sesshin in a row. I sit a sloppy half lotus for 25 minutes now, when I get up and before I go to bed. That's usually long enough to arrive at "just sitting", action by virtue of the sense of place in awareness, from moment to moment. Some of the teachers out there make me wonder, but then again, I think they must practice "just sitting" more easily than I do--they just can't explain how. I can understand: how do you express what it is that you do, when what you do is not "doing something"? Gautama was unique in the clarity of his explanation, though I've had to piece that together out of many volumes. Teaching was the miracle he claimed.

My impression of Kobun Chino Otogawa, whom Shunryu Suzuki brought from Japan to set up the Tassajara monastery down in Big Sur, was that he was constantly demonstrating the teaching in his actions. That I think is in keeping with what Gautama had to say, as reported in the Pali sermons: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294) “When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows. Gautama also spoke of “the activities”. The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition: And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities. (SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4) Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible: And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’. (SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85) He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease: …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146) (A Way of Living) In the fourth "trance", action in deed occasioned by "determinate thought" ceases. That's not the cessation of action of deed, and Kobun was a master of the zazen that gets up and walks around (yes, zazen sometimes gets up and walks around, as he reminded his audience at S. F. Zen Center at the close of a lecture in the '80's). Ok, that's not quite right--Kobun also said "nobody masters zazen". Something in his actions was a constant teaching, that would be more correct. I think that's consistent in Ch'an and Zen. Ixnay on that one. From the account of Gautama's final days: I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. (DN 16 PTS: D ii 72 32; "Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha"; tr sister Vajira & Francis Story) On the other hand, until a person experiences zazen in an action, it's impossible to believe. As I wrote recently (with a quote from Kobun): The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) The teachings in the Pali Canon concern the cessation of habit or volition in action, in states of concentration, and everything that might be expected to surround that. If you succeed as Gautama did in surpassing the foremost teachers of his day, and in arriving at the cessation of "determinate thought" in feeling and perceiving, then you will likely see as he did that there is a chain of causation involved in suffering. Even if you don't arrive at "the cessation of feeling and perceiving", but only at the cessation of "determinate thought" in (the activity of the body in) inhalation and exhalation, you can start to live the way of life that Gautama lived. He recommended it: … if cultivated and made much of, (the “intent concentration”) is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. (SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society V p 285) I think it was that way of living, which Gautama called "the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing" (Woodward's translation) or "the (mindfulness-)development that is mindfulness of inbreathing and outbreathing" (Horner's translation of Anapanasati), that Otogawa and Suzuki practiced: To enjoy our life-- complicated life, difficult life-- without ignoring it, and without being caught by it. Without suffer from it. That is actually what will happen to us after you practice zazen. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)? Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. As to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. (Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society Vol II p 108; Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”, above, rendered by Horner as “body, feelings, mind, and mental states”) When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained (in the four arisings of mindfulness), and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, 1st paragraph parenthetical added)

I would contend that it is possible to act on the basis of things that are beyond the boundaries of the senses. That doesn't mean that things beyond the boundaries of the senses are comprehended, understood, or realized. More like: When the location of awareness is free to shift and move, the centrifugal force around any axis in the place of awareness can find a counterforce along the same axis. ... If the mind of friendliness, of compassion, of sympathetic joy, or of equanimity is extended throughout the four quarters of the world, above and below, then the centrifugal force at the location of awareness and the counterforce can involve things that lie beyond the boundaries of the senses, and change in the balance of force and counterforce can initiate change in the carriage of the body without conscious volition. (Four Points of Ki-Aikido) Dogen wrote "Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent" (“Genjo Koan”, Dogen; tr. Kazuaki Tanahashi). The example he gave was: Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?” “Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.” “What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply. (ibid) I would say that the wind that reaches everywhere actualizes the inconceivable immediately, without any practice occurring, in Mayu’s fanning. That's the feeling, when the location of awareness shifts and moves freely based on necessity experienced in the movement of breath, and change in the balance of force and counterforce at the place of awareness initiates change in the carriage of the body without conscious volition. Very useful, I imagine, in the kind of blindfold exercise they do in Aikido, although my experience was more like avoiding flying bodies on the dance floor at Mabuhay Gardens. You can kind of get an idea of the chaos on the dance floor at Mabuhay Gardens, here--the guy in the blue shirt at :45 gets bent over because someone was shoved into him from behind. You can imagine was it was like in the center of the dance floor:

Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts. (“The Mahamudra: Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche on a 16th century C.E. text by the head of the largest sub-school of the four major Tibetan schools of Buddhism.) Dogen followed in the Chinese tradition when he wrote: Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. (Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, tr Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176) Turn the light to shine on awareness itself, even as awareness shifts and moves. As to the similarity to space: You must strive with all your might to bite through here and cut off conditioned habits of mind. Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality. (Zen Letters, translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, pg 84) "open as empty space"--the natural instinct toward a freedom of awareness, an experience that perhaps underlies the comprehension in an individual's mind.

Here are the elements in mindfulness of the state of mind, at least the elements as Gautama presented them when he spoke of his way of living, "the intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing": (One) makes up one’s mind: Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed) My notes on the same: When I reflect on impermanence, I generally think about death, but Gautama spoke more broadly about the impermanence of any notion of self, and about how grasping after any notion of self is identically suffering. With regard to death, Gautama stated that those who correctly practice “mindfulness of death” apply his teachings “for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food”, or “for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out”. Contemplation on impermanence in any form engenders a dispassion toward “the pleasant, the painful, and the neither-pleasant-nor-painful” of feeling, giving rise to the second element of Gautama’s “mindfulness of mental states”. I take the “cessation” of the third element to be the cessation of volitive action, the action invoked by determinate thought. There are other cessations Gautama cited, each in connection with a particular state of concentration, but they only have significance in the larger context of the cessation of volitive action. The “renunciation” of the fourth element I would say refers to the abandonment of any notion of “I am the doer, mine is the doer” with regard to action of speech, body, or mind. (The Early Record) That first element in mindfulness of the state of mind would perhaps be the observation of impermanence in the identification of self in any of the five groups, as you mentioned. Gautama suggests that the observation of impermanence seques to observation of dispassion, or equanimity with regard to the pleasant, painful, or neither pleasant nor painful of feeling. That, in turn, allows the cessation of habit or volition in the action of the body in inhalation and exhalation, and the renunciation of the "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer', with regard to this consciousness-informed body". For Gautama, all of this took place in a state of concentration, meaning with "one-pointedness of mind". Here's Gautama's description of the feeling of the first concentration, and some comments I have made: Here’s Gautama’s analogy for the first state of concentration: … just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS pg 132-134) I’ve described a feeling I have at the place of awareness, in terms of Gautama’s analogy: If I were kneading soap powder into a ball in a copper vessel, I would have one hand kneading soap and one hand on the vessel. The press of the hand kneading soap would find something of an opposite pressure from the hand holding the vessel, even if the bottom of the vessel were resting on the ground. More particularly: … the exercise becomes in part the distinction of the direction of turn that I’m feeling at the location of awareness… that distinction allows the appropriate counter from everything that surrounds the place of awareness. I would say that gravity and handedness (I’m right-handed) is the source of my feeling of outward force at the location of awareness, and the activity of the muscles of posture in response to the stretch of ligaments is the source of the counter. (Common Ground) The easiest way to find necessity placing awareness in the movement of breath is right before falling asleep. a p.s.--that "(one) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses" the entire body with positive feeling, absolutely necessary to allow a freedom in the placement of attention, at the same time that one firms one's grip in "laying hold of one-pointedness of mind".

It's complicated. The definition of right view depends in part on the definition of wrong view; the definition of wrong view was given as follows: There is no (result of) gift ... no (result of) offering ... no (result of) sacrifice; there is no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done; there is not this world, there is not a world beyond; there is no (benefit from serving) mother and father; there are no beings of spontaneous uprising; there are not in the world recluses and brahmans... who are faring rightly, proceeding rightly, and who proclaim this world and the world beyond having realized them by their own super-knowledge. (MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121) “Beings of spontaneous uprising” appears to be a reference to fairy-like beings that spring into existence without parents (several classes of fairy-like beings were believed to exist in Vedic folklore; see notes, SN III 249, Pali Text Society III p 197). Right view, said Gautama, is twofold. First, there is the right view which is exactly the opposite of wrong view; this, however, is the view “that has cankers, that is on the side of merit, that ripens unto cleaving (to new birth)”. The right view which is “[noble], supermundane, cankerless and a component of the way” is: “Whatever ... is wisdom, the cardinal faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the component of enlightenment which is investigation into things, the right view that is a component of the Way in one who, by developing the [noble] Way, is of [noble] thought, conversant with the [noble] Way–this... is a right view that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way.” (Ibid) (Making Sense of the Pali Sutta: the Wheel of the Sayings) That sets up the following: Where there have been deeds, Ananda, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech–where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech–in the thought. Either we of ourselves, Ananda, plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned on ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after. But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance, Ananda, those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought. As field they are not; as base they are not; as wherewithal they are not; as occasion they are not, that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe. (SN II text ii, 36, Pali Text Society SN II p 31-32) "making merit intentionally"--as in the right view that ripens onto cleaving, resulting in personal weal and woe. Not the right view that is part of the path of one who has "gone beyond". As someone on this thread has already exclaimed, "good luck with that!" (to us all).

Wouldn't the best way to show gratitude to the dead lineage of teachers be to carry on the practice? I did a podcast with David Chadwick recently, and at the close of the podcast I despaired of my efforts to write about my explorations. He picked me up: DC: Well, yeah, I understand. What you're doing and what you put out will actually reach to the furthest reaches of the universe. MF: There we go! ... I just have to pray that that's the way it works. Certainly, we have teachers who have given their lives on the basis of that belief, and we bow to them. Chadwick's is a mighty effort, to reach to the farthest reaches of the universe (IMHO).

I have a book. Well, ok, it's a PDF I put together online, of those of my essays from my blog that have been the most useful to me. Edited to eliminate repetition (somewhat... ). The book is titled "A Natural Mindfulness". Funny part is, nothing in the book actually addressed a natural mindfulness, until I added my most recent essay to the book, wherein I write: When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24, transcript) I think the meaning of life is that there's a natural tendency toward the free placement of attention, toward the free placement of awareness. Sometimes that is automatic, sometimes that requires thought initial and sustained and the experience of stages of concentration. As Gautama said: “Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel… is strung on a thread, blue-green… or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine… is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away… and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there….” (MN II 17, Vol II pg 217; see also AN IV 304-305, Vol IV pg 202-203) Bound there, but a freedom in the location and movement of awareness is nevertheless the experience that gives meaning to this life. When I think of when I felt most alive, that kind of freedom as the source of action of speech, body, and mind was present.

When action comes out of the location of awareness, apart from any habit or exercise of volition, then that location incorporates the senses. The placement of awareness and the action out of location incorporates all of the senses, and even what is beyond the boundaries of the senses, at times. Yes, action out of the location of awareness must be experienced to be believed. That to me is why it might be said that there is nothing apart from that awareness, it's nondual in that sense. There is no actor apart, only awareness.

I do that with regard to anger, especially. I sit, and sometimes it takes days before I see some cause and effect, realize why compassion is a better or more appropriate response, and the anger dissolves.

I sit when I get up, and before I go to bed, sloppy half-lotus left and right (alternately), usually about 25 minutes. My sitting is geared toward "just sitting": At Zen centers they will usually advise newcomers to count their breaths 1 to 10 and then start over again, or to simply pay attention to their breathing, but as Shunryu Suzuki said: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) My practice is more like: When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Am I addressing karma, with "just sitting"? I hope so! Still, as on Apech's thread about "emotions as the path", I feel lost in emotions in my relationships and social encounters, a lot. At the same time, I have faith that "a presence of mind (retained) as the placement of attention shifts" can act, and that those actions are without karma. So I practice to that, and confess my ancient and twisted karma whenever I am called upon to do so.

Gautama abided in concentration except when he was speaking, The defining trait of concentration is "one-pointedness of mind", in his teaching. That is consciousness that includes equalibrioception, graviception, proprioception, and oculoception---in fact all the senses, but those four in particular yield "one-pointedness of mind", awareness coupled with a sense of a singular location. Mostly people identify strongly with the eyes, and the eyes are tightly connected to the sense of awareness--they can reorient the sense of location. Consequently most people think of their head as the location of their awareness, and identify themselves with their thoughts, especially because they can move their bodies through "determinate thought". The Eastern teachings and seeming miracles depend on the recognition that awareness can move as a point, and action can arise purely from the location of that point. The awareness that shifts and moves as a point is the interface between conscious and unconscious minds, between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, but in order to attain "one-pointedness", it's necessary to "make self-surrender the object of thought"', as Gautama put it. Not the most popular activity, amongst the general populace, East or West! The first four states of concentration are marked by "equanimity with respect to multiplicity (of the senses)", the further states are marked by "equanimity with respect to uniformity (of the senses)", and that equanimity is transcended "through lack of desire, by means of lack of desire". Meaning, it's in our nature to arrive at a state where "determinate thought" is absent even in feeling and perceiving, although "the disturbance of the six sense fields" persists. Who or what are we then?--nondual awareness I would say is accurate! Got carried away there. Most of Gautama's renditions of the chain of causation begin with ignorance, and continue with "the activities", which are volitive actions of speech, body, and mind. He doesn't really specify what is being ignored, but I would guess it's "things as they really is", to paraphrase Shunryu Suzuki. Ignore where you are at this moment, and how that shifts and moves, and you have a persistence of consciousness, then a stationing of consciousness, and end up grasping after a sense of self with regard to the body, the feelings, the mind, or the mental state. And that is suffering. The end of ignorance is the end of activities occasioned by "determinate thought", the end of consciousness occasioned by the activities, the end of concepts ("name and form") occasioned by a stationing of consciousness, the end of feeling set in motion by concepts, the end of craving after feeling, the end of suffering. As for the path leading to the end of suffering: (Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind). Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified. (MN III 287 "Discourse Pertaining to the Great Sixfold (Sense-)Field", Pali Text Society III p 337-338)

Maybe the dantian is not a fixed location at all, maybe it's a locus around the center of gravity and varies from person to person. Gautama spoke of "one-pointedness of mind", yet he never mentioned any physical location.

by Buddha's own Foote who just wants a last line that anyone can write from anyone can write from this last line, for example: blue skies, from now on

I'm working on the theory that there's a rhythm that can be entered into, thinking and feeling having their place in that rhythm. I'm still working to understand and appreciate Gautama's "mindfulness of feeling"--he actually looked for particular feelings, some of which he calmed ("the mental factors"). Nevertheless, his experience of mindfulness of feeling and thinking (and of the body and the mental state) took place in the first concentration, in which he ever abided (except when he was speaking). That concentration, and all the concentrations, are marked by "one-pointedness of mind": "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind". Apparently certain feelings come forward as one-pointedness is laid hold of, and his mindfulness was addressed to them--not the open-ended mindfulness of feelings one would imagine.

Was it on this thread, or another, where someone (maybe Apech?) pointed out the the term used for suffering in Gautama's time was related to the axle of a wheel, to a problem with the axle. Sounds right to me. You're right that Gautama was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He spoke of "never-returners" and "once-returners", and that implies future incarnation of something, conditioned by actions in the current life and past lives. That doesn''t equate straight across to suffering as "the five groups of grasping", and consciousness stuck by grasping in repeated feelings and perceptions with regard to body, feelings, mind, habit, and consciousness. When I look to my own suffering, and a path out of suffering, I can't be thinking about the next life. I can understand for some, that may be the only relief they have from suffering. I think I understand why Gautama refuted the fisherman Sati's beliefs about that: “[Gautama] spoke thus to the monk Sati, a fisherman’s son, as he was sitting down at a respectful distance: ‘Is it true, as is said, that a pernicious view like this has accrued to you, Sati: “In so far as I understand [the truth] taught by [Gautama], it is that this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another”?’ ‘Even so do I… understand [the teaching] ….’ ‘What is this consciousness, Sati?’ ‘It is this… that speaks, that feels, that experiences now here, now there, the fruition of deeds that are lovely and that are depraved.’ [Gautama rebukes Sati for his misrepresentation of Gautama’s teaching, and continues:] It is because… an appropriate condition arises that consciousness is known by this or that name: if consciousness arises because of eye and material shapes, it is known as visual consciousness; if consciousness arises because of ear and sounds, it is known as auditory consciousness; [so for the nose/smells/olfactory consciousness, tongue/tastes/gustatory consciousness, body/touches/tactile consciousness, mind/mental objects/mental consciousness]. …As a fire burns because of this or that appropriate condition, by that it is known: if a fire burns because of sticks, it is known as a stick-fire; and if a fire burns because of chips, it is known as a chip-fire; … and so with regard to grass, cow-dung, chaff, and rubbish.” (MN I 258-259, Vol I pg 313-315) Even so, as a practical matter, I'm going with: When necessity places attention, and a presence of mind is retained as the placement shifts and moves, then in Gautama’s words, “[one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness”: Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

Apologies--I edited my original comment, instead of adding a new comment. For anyone reading the thread and confused, stirling has quoted the original and responded to that. The new comment was really just the heart of the old comment, with underlining both in stirling's original and in my response. The struggle and karma are OURS. We can stop generating both once we experience how things are, and the results are obvious quickly. The addition of "... and thereby lose "any latent conceits that "I am the doer", "mine is the doer" with regard to this consciousnesss-informed body" was just to emphasis the kind of experience that stops generating both. Thanks for the recommendation, stirling--I'm guessing you're referring to this: "Self-realization is simply the realization by the ego that the ego itself is not a separate doer, that the doing is merely a happening through a human mechanism or instrument." That's an interesting way to put it. I kind of prefer my own explanation: When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”... (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) I'll even take this, over an explanation in terms of the ego: Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. (“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

peal of homecoming more like, squawk of resentment those off-screen egrets! https://zenmudra.com/202311-13-0_audio_replaced.mp4 those off-screen egrets have been here millennia they're right to complain

Ok. A point that people often overlook in Gautama's teaching about suffering is his identification of suffering with grasping in the five groups: “Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are anguish. Not to get what one desires is anguish. In short, the five groups based on grasping are anguish.” (AN I 176, Vol I pg 160; Pali “dukkha”: “anguish” in MN, “Ill” in AN original above, emphasis added) The first thing that tells me is that "life is suffering" is not a correct rendering of the first truth. Grasping after a sense of self, in any of five categories Gautama identified is suffering, not life per se. Now how does that correlate with "birth, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair"--most peculiar. The only correlation I can find is in our experience of ourselves. It's not birth, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, or despair so much as the identification of self with body, feelings, perceptions, habits, and consciousness that causes consciousness to get stuck and repeat itself in the same relationship to these things over and over again. That's the way I make sense of "consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from... the five groups based on grasping". Thank you for asking for that explanation, Daniel--helps me to understand my own thoughts, more clearly. Nevertheless, the insight into the nature of suffering doesn't mean much without a means of escape. The opposite of "a stationing": There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) When necessity places attention, and a presence of mind is retained as the placement shifts and moves, then in Gautama’s words, “[one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness”: Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) There's a whole lecture where Gautama describes his chief disciple, Sariputta, moving from one stage of concentration to the next. At the close of each stage, Sariputta comprehends: "there is a further escape." When Sariputta passes from "neither-perception-nor-non-perception" and enters and abides in "the stoppping of ('determinate thought' in) perception and feeling", we have the following description: And having seen by means of intuitive wisdom, his cankers are utterly destroyed. Mindful, he emerges from that attainment. When he has emerged, mindful, from that attainment he regards those things that are past, stopped, changed as : 'Thus indeed things that have not been in me come to be; having been they pass away.' He, not feeling attracted by these things, not feeling repelled, independent, not infatuated, freed, released, dwells with a mind that is unconfined. He comprehends "There is no further escape." (MN III "Discourse on the Uninterrupted" 25, Pali Text Society III p 77) "A mind that is unconfined": When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

The struggle and karma are OURS. We can stop generating both once we experience how things are...

“The cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” is not an actual stoppage of breath. Gautama only spoke about the stoppage of breath once, in a description of the practices he undertook as an ascetic: So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears. When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body. Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain. But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind… (MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299) Stopping the breath in and the breath out did not satisfy Gautama’s quest to “bring to a close the (holy)-faring”. Only after he had abandoned such ascetic practices did he enter the states of concentration, and attain the state that caused him to say, “done is what was to be done”. (A Way of Living) I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me…: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’ (MN 1 246-247, Vol I p 301)

That's interesting. There are a couple of sermons in the Pali collections where some member of the order or of the lay community is dying a painful death, and a senior member of the order drops by to encourage them to bear up, in light of the dhamma. I'm remembering two such sermons, at the conclusion of each of which, the afflicted person took the knife (committed suicide). Oh well! But as Maddie said, Gautama regarded suffering as something added to the experience of a sensation: “When [one] has seen a material shape through the eye, [one] does not feel attraction for agreeable material shapes, [one] does not feel repugnance for disagreeable material shapes; and (one] dwells with mindfulness aroused as to the body… [One] who has thus got rid of compliance and antipathy, whatever feeling [that person] feels-pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant [one] does not delight in that feeling, does not welcome it or persist in cleaving to it. From not delighting in that feeling … , from not welcoming it, from not persisting in cleaving to it, whatever was delight in those feelings is stopped. From the stopping of [one’s] delight is the stopping of grasping; from the stopping of grasping is the stopping of becoming; from the stopping of becoming is the stopping of birth; from the stopping of birth, old age and dying, grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation and despair are stopped. Such is the stopping of this entire mass of anguish [similarly for sound/the ear, scent/the nose, savor/the tongue, touch/the body, mental object/the mind].” (MN 1270, Vol I pg 323-324) Ok, hard to imagine delighting in a painful feeling. Here's another angle: Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are anguish. Not to get what one desires is anguish. In short, the five groups based on grasping are anguish. (AN I 176, Vol I p 160; Pali “dukkha”: “anguish” in MN, “Ill” in AN original above; emphasis added) The trick is, ya gotta have "perfect wisdom", to see through the five groups and shed "latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body": Whatever … is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, [a person], thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling … perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future or present… [that person], thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. [For one] knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body. (MN III 18-19, Vol III p 68) My version of "perfect wisdom": When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. ... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)