Mark Foote

Yes, and before he died, he advised people to be lamp on themselves, although he said that the way to do that was to be mindful with regard to body, feelings, mind, and mental states. I posted my last post in this thread before I finished it--I did add something now, and an illustration of the dermatomes (the areas on the surface of the skin that are innervated by nerves from particular vertebrae of the spine).

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (Wikipedia, "Doubting Thomas", passage from chapter 20 of the Gospel of John, King James version) I'm inclined to believe that 24 and 25 happened, and the rest was an invention, but I feel that way about most of the Gospel of John. It was, after all, composed about 150 years later than the first three gospels. Maddie, you are a regular doubting Thomas! So am I. On the subject of healers, many of them are remarkable. Gautama never claimed any miracles, other than the ability to teach. dermatomes:

That's very interesting, to me. When you say, "different to Gautama's conclusion", I wonder if you are referring to his conclusions about suffering? For me, when I sit there's effort involved, to realize "the degree of “self-surrender” required to allow necessity to place attention, and the presence of mind required to “lay hold” as the placement of attention shifts". The ability to realize "one-pointedness" doesn't preclude the experience of the kinesthesiology around support for the structure of the spine--more like it begins meaningful experience of the kinesthesiology. The fourth concentration, in which "purity of mind" suffuses the body (translation: necessity can place one-pointed attention freely, anywhere in the body), Gautama said was marked by a feeling like a cloth that wraps the entire head, and even the entire body. I believe that's an evenness of sensation in the dermatomes, as a result of an openness in the nerve exits between vertebrae along the spine and along the sacrum. The openness follows the engagement of a particular mechanism of support for the spine, and the four initial "trances" are stages in the coordination of the muscles and ligaments that lead to that support. I sit with a rhythm in the relaxation of agonist/antagonist muscle groups, with a rhythm in the calm extended to the stretch of ligaments (ligaments that control the reciprocal innervation of paired muscle groups), with a rhythm in detachment with regard to thought, and with a rhythm in the cessation of activity in inhalation and exhalation through the experience of activity out of the placement of attention.

I learned to dance in San Francisco at Mabuhay Gardens in the '80's. "The Mabuhay" was a Philippines restaurant that converted into a small dance floor and bar after supper, and Dirk Dirksen, the M.C., would have three punk bands a night perform, every day of the week. The dance floor was small, and oftentimes spectators would crowd the stage. It became a regular thing at Mabuhay, for somebody to shove a friend into the crowd of spectators. Pretty soon the spectators would push back, and mayhem would ensue. For me, the exercise was a lot like the blind-fold thing they do in Aikido, except that all I was trying to do was stay upright as I danced. After awhile, I got used to dancing from the point of awareness, and amazingly that point can incorporate things I'm not even aware of, and move me--at Mabuhay, move me out of the way of the flying bodies, without leaving the melee. Sometimes I danced in the bar area of Hamburger Mary's. I lived above the bar and grill, and they had a DJ who played great records. I'd have a beer, find myself dancing, end up playing pinball (they always had the newest pinball machines, a big draw). A thing I discovered was that I could dance by myself in a crowd of people, relying on the same point of awareness, but I had to extend compassion and sympathy through the whole room. Dancing by permission, as it were. The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration. Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. ... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”... ... The free placement of attention only occurs with clarity in the fourth concentration, but as Foyan pointed out, such freedom is inherent in human nature. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) Want to dance in a crowd of people, who are not always like-minded? In some of his lectures, Gautama went from the four initial or “material” concentrations to four “non-material” concentrations.... The four further states, he said, marked a transition from “equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses” to “equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses”. The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”: [One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48) The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.... The basis of the arts, moving from the point of awareness, and extending beyond the boundaries of sense to allow the people on the other side of the wall to move the point of awareness. Ouija gung-fu!

probably it was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaggata But: 1 apparently it is not a term ever used by Buddha. It is a later addition to the buddhist nomenclature from hinduism or such 2 all the profi westerners make it to mean a concentration on an object (the titular 'point') - but it is not that. Rather it means a unified mind, oneness of the mind, nothing to do with objects. Eka means one. so Ekaggata just means oneness. I couldn't agree with you more, with regard to your second point. Here's Zen teacher koun Franz making the distinction: The phrase appears in too many places in the first four Nikayas for me to agree with you, that it was not used by Gautama. Moreover, Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site) I have to disagree, with your first point, and I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. "One-pointedness" appears in sermons credited to Gautama in each of the first four Nikayas, as far as I know. Some examples: “And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.” (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19) Some of my own writing on the subject: Foyan spoke of “looking for a donkey riding on the donkey”. The degree of “self-surrender” required to allow necessity to place attention, and the presence of mind required to “lay hold” as the placement of attention shifts, make the conscious experience of “riding the donkey” elusive. Suzuki provided an analogy: If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness]. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Suzuki offered the analogy in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor. In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body. The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) As I’ve written previously, there’s an opportunity to make self-surrender the object of thought and to lay hold of “one-pointedness” just before falling asleep: … Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). … when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate. (Waking Up and Falling Asleep) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

I would recommend the Gospel of Thomas to you, if you haven't already read it. Only sayings of Jesus, in the Gospel of Thomas, no life story--supposedly as heard by Thomas: Jesus said to His disciples: Make a comparison to Me and tell Me who I am like. Simon Peter said to him: Thou are like a righteous angel. Matthew said to Him, Thou are like a wise man of understanding. Thomas said to him: Master, my mouth will not at all be capable of saying whom Thou art like. Jesus said: I am not thy Master, because thou hast drunk, thou hast from the bubbling spring which I have measured out. And He took him, and He withdrew, He spoke three words to him. Now when Thomas came to his companions, they asked him: What did Jesus say to thee? Thomas said to them: If I tell you one of the words which He said to me, you will take up stones and throw at me; and fire will come from the stones and burn you up. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p 9 log. 13, ©1959 E. J. Brill) Peter went on to found the church of Rome. Thomas, according to an account told to me by Professor Noel King at UC Santa Cruz, travelled to the south of India, where he was stoned to death (ironic). The people in the area where he was stoned to death consider themselves Thomas Christians. A version of "tell me who I am like" in the Pali sermons--here, it's "tell me what I will become, after death": Your worship will become a deva? No indeed, brahmin. I'll not become a deva. Then your worship will become a gandarva? No indeed, brahmin, I'll not become a gandarva. A yakka, then? No indeed, brahmin. Not a yakka. Then your worship will become a human being? No indeed, brahmin. I'll not become a human being. ... Who then, pray, will your worship become? ... Just as, brahmin, a lotus, blue, red, or white, though born in the water, grown up in the water, when it reaches the surface stands there unsoiled by the water,--just so, brahmin, though born in the world, grown up in the world, having overcome the world, I abide unsoiled by the world. Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin. (AN Book of Fours 36, Pali Text Society AN Vol 2 p 44) Based on my own experience, I have great faith that Gautama the Shakyan did indeed experience the cessation of "doing something" in feeling and perceiving. Fortunately for those of us who don't expect to experience that anytime soon, he taught a way of living that only required the cessation of "doing something" in the consciousness-informed activity of inbreathing and outbreathing. That's still a trick:: When necessity places attention, and a presence of mind is retained as the placement shifts and moves, then in Gautama’s words, “[one] lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness”: Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; parenthetical material paraphrases original; “directed” also rendered as “initial” MN III p 78 and as “applied” PTS AN III p 18-19) Foyan spoke of “looking for a donkey riding on the donkey”. The degree of “self-surrender” required to allow necessity to place attention, and the presence of mind required to “lay hold” as the placement of attention shifts, make the conscious experience of “riding the donkey” elusive. Suzuki provided an analogy: If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness]. (“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Suzuki offered the analogy in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor. In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body. The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

I've been trying to make that point, exactly--the opposite of dual is wu wei, "doing nothing yet everything is done". The cessation of habit and volition in action, not the cessation of action. Not going to fit neatly in a philosophy .

Immortal farts, seemingly, but masters?--ha ha! My take: A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” (AN III 414) in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action. A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”. ... It’s possible to experience “one-pointedness of mind” and the movement of “one-pointed” mind in the body without experiencing a freedom of that movement in full. I’ve written about the analogies Gautama provided for the cultivation of “one-pointedness of mind” (The Early Record), and I would say that it’s only in the concentration where the body is suffused with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” that the mind really moves freely. Gautama pointed out that with that concentration, “determinate thought” in action of the body ceases, in particular volition that affects the movement of inhalation or exhalation ceases. That doesn’t mean that action of the body can’t take place, only that the exercise of will or volition is not involved. I have many times quoted a remark I heard Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa make at the end of one of his lectures at the San Francisco Zen Center: You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around. If a person “takes the attitude of someone who… lets go of both hands and feet” (as Dogen instructed), then perhaps there will come a moment when the hands and feet walk around. At that moment, there will be new meaning to be had in cleaning cat boxes, cooking, shopping, driving, and bathing, though these experiences might not involve the attitude that advances from the top of a 100-foot pole throughout. Having said that, I have to add that it’s my belief that not every Zen teacher has experienced the zazen that gets up and walks around. That doesn’t say that they haven’t experienced the cessation of volition in action of the body, or that they are not qualified to teach Zen, but I think they must have a different perspective on the relationship of practice to the actions of everyday life. To be clear, the cessation of volition in the action of the body is not the experience Gautama associated with his enlightenment–that would be the cessation of volition in the action of the mind, in “feeling and perceiving”. Having attained to the “cessation of feeling and perceiving”, Gautama saw for himself that suffering is the last link in a chain of cause and effect, and his insight into the nature of suffering was his enlightenment. (Response to “Not the Wind, Not the Flag”) The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) As I’ve written previously, there’s an opportunity to make self-surrender the object of thought and to lay hold of “one-pointedness” just before falling asleep: … Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). … when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate. (Waking Up and Falling Asleep) When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

“One-pointedness of mind” was apparently a commonly understood phrase in Gautama’s day. Such phrases can be difficult to translate, according to I. B. Horner, the Pali Text Society translator of the Middle-Length Sayings: This is an example of the allusiveness of the Pali texts. It does not detract from their precision, but only shows it is we who must find the key to what at one time was probably obvious and well understood. (“Translator’s Introduction”, Pali Text Society MN III p xxi) (excerpt from Not the Wind, Not the Flag)

It is a preference? Primacy is given, but there is no philosophical reason? Yogapedia provides a definition of “dhyana” based on the Sanskrit roots of the word: Dhyana is a Sanskrit word meaning “meditation.” It is derived from the root words, dhi, meaning “receptacle” or “the mind”; and yana, meaning “moving” or “going.” (dhyana, dec. 9 2017, “Yogapedia”, authorship not ascribed; https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/5284/dhyana) Dhyana could therefore be said to translate literally as “mind moving”. The sixth patriarch of Zen in China pointed directly to the mind moving, in a case from the “Gateless Gate” collection: Not the Wind, Not the Flag Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: “The flag is moving.” The other said: “The wind is moving.” The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: “Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.” To me, what the sixth patriarch said was, pay attention to the singularity of self-awareness that moves, not to the flag or the wind. (Not the Wind, Not the Flag) Again, it's an experiential thing. The "mind" only moves freely in a state that Gautama described as the fourth concentration. I've described the free placement of attention out of necessity in the movement of breath, and the feeling of the activity that takes place without "doing something". As I've written previously: The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”: It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) Or as Shakespeare wrote in "Hamlet": HORATIO: O day and night, but this is wondrous strange. HAMLET: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. … Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). … when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate. (Waking Up and Falling Asleep) When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Find the seat and put on the robe, and afterward see for yourself. ("Zen Letters, Teachings of Yuanwu", tr J.C. Cleary &Thomas Cleary p 65)

The source of S.C.'s quotation: Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Geoffrey DeGraff) is an American Buddhist monk of the Kammatthana (Thai Forest) Tradition. After graduating from Oberlin College in 1971 with a degree in European Intellectual History, he traveled to Thailand, where he studied meditation under Ajaan Fuang Jotiko, himself a student of the late Ajaan Lee. He ordained in 1976 and lived at Wat Dhammasathit, where he remained following his teacher's death in 1986. In 1991 he traveled to the hills of San Diego County, USA, where he helped Ajaan Suwat Suvaco establish Metta Forest Monastery (Wat Mettavanaram). He was made abbot of the Monastery in 1993. Thanissaro Bhikku wrote: Emptiness as a quality of dharmas, in the early canons, means simply that one cannot identify them as one’s own self or having anything pertaining to one’s own self… Emptiness as a mental state, in the early canons, means a mode of perception in which one neither adds anything to nor takes anything away from what is present, noting simply, “There is this.” This mode is achieved through a process of intense concentration, coupled with the insight that notes more and more subtle levels of the presence and absence of disturbance. (Wikipedia, “Sunyata” entry as of Sept. 19, 2020) I think from that I can surmise that his practice is "noting", as practiced by some teachers in Thailand and celebrated in the USA as a practice synonymous with mindfulness. Satipatthana is often cited as a source, when the practice is attributed to Gautama the Buddha. I confess, I think of "noting" practice in America as the reason for the term "McMindfulness". I've also read something fromThanissaro on "one-pointedness" or "one-pointedness of mind", which Gautama equated with concentration. My conclusion was, that Thanissaro did not know what "one-pointedness of mind" was. Of course, I have the presumption to assume I do!

This also makes perfect sense to me. Simultaneity is, imo, one of the most important concepts for clear awareness of reality. When I consider simultaneity, it is inherently dual. If it is non-dual, it cannot be simultaneous. The quote from my latest post in my last response to you, that was just intended to provide context for the paragraph before the close. I think your eyes glazed over when you saw the verbiage, and I don't blame them, but I think they missed this: Action can come entirely out of the placement of attention, a placement out of necessity in the movement of breath. The experience can be like hypnotic suggestion, where action takes place without a will to act on the part of the subject--"your hand is picking up the cup, your arm is bringing the cup to your lips"--when that happens, there are "no latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer, with regard to the consciousness-informed body" (as Gautama said). There is no conception of the cup, of the nature and role of the cup, of the significance of the action with regard to the cup--the experience is empty of those things, there is only emptiness. When habit and volition return, there is the cup, the nature and role of the cup, and the significance of the cup. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.--Shunryu Suzuki Suzuki said "at the same time", but I believe that refers to an openness to the placement of attention of necessity and an openness to action out of placement even as habit and volition control activity. Non-duality is an experience of action, or more correctly an experience of the cessation of "doing something" in action, cessation first in speech, then in the body, and finally with regard to thought. When there is no "I am the doer, mine is the doer", there is no duality.

Daniel, take it easy! That was a response to Nungali quoting Slick's "White Rabbit".

I think the simultaneity is something that comes out of meditative experience: The fourth stage of concentration (the “fourth musing”) is different from the first three, in that a particular quality of mind is applied: Again, a [person], putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, [one] suffuses [one’s] body with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of [one’s] mind. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93; bracketed material paraphrases original) “Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. In another lecture, Suzuki described the experience: Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. (“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 [edited by Bill Redican], transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Suzuki was expanding on the last line of a famous poem by the 6th century Buddhist Fuxi: Water does not flow, but the bridge flows. (ibid; Suzuki credits Dogen) The flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases in the fourth concentration. Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. Nevertheless, Suzuki advised his students: Let the water flow, as that is the water’s practice. Let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge. (ibid) The twelfth-century Chinese teacher Foyan similarly expressed a caution to his students: In my school, there are only two kinds of sickness. One is to go looking for a donkey riding on the donkey. The other is to be unwilling to dismount once having mounted the donkey. … Once you have recognized the donkey, to mount it and be unwilling to dismount is the sickness that is most difficult to treat. I tell you that you need not mount the donkey; you are the donkey! (“Instant Zen: Waking Up in the Present”, tr T. Cleary, Shambala p 4) Having experienced the placement of attention as the source of activity (“riding on the donkey”), the tendency is to want the activity of the body to come solely from the placement of attention all the time (“to be unwilling to dismount”). Foyan asserted that activity from the location of attention is inherent in human nature, and the unwillingness to relinquish such activity is not healthy. ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) Action can come entirely out of the placement of attention, a placement out of necessity in the movement of breath. The experience can be like hypnotic suggestion, where action takes place without a will to act on the part of the subject--"your hand is picking up the cup, your arm is bringing the cup to your lips"--when that happens, there are "no latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer, with regard to the consciousness-informed body" (as Gautama said). There is no conception of the cup, of the nature and role of the cup, of the significance of the action with regard to the cup--the experience is empty of those things, there is only emptiness. When habit and volition return, there is the cup, the nature and role of the cup, and the significance of the cup. Suzuki said "at the same time", but I believe that refers to an openness to the placement of attention of necessity and an openness to action out of placement even as habit and volition control activity. When there's no hypnotist around, and the action takes place with no will to act, then you have what Dogen described in "Genjo Koan": Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. I have an entire basket of mud, so if you'd like another scoop, just raise your hand (without willing it to do so, of course).

Checking the article you quote from ("Two Truths?", by Thanissaro Bhikkhu), he sets up his argument with quotes from commentaries to the sermons, and with quotes from the fifth Nikaya. I don't see that he cites the source of the commentaries--Buddhaghosa, maybe? I myself take everything Buddhaghosa says with more than a grain of salt. The fifth Nikaya is a volume of later composition, according to A. K. Warder in "Buddhist India" and I believe other scholars. Myself, I avoid even quoting sermons in the first four Nikayas that are not attributed to Gautama himself--the voices of the disciples, like that of Sariputta the foremost disciple, are subtly different from the voice of Gautama, and I find their understanding admits of things that Gautama's understanding did not . I looked to find this passage: “‘Having intentionally done—with body, with speech, or with mind—an action that is to be felt as pleasure, one experiences pleasure. Having intentionally done—with body, with speech, or with mind—an action that is to be felt as pain, one experiences pain. Having intentionally done—with body, with speech, or with mind—an action that is to be felt as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, one experiences neither-pleasure-nor-pain.’” — MN 136 There are three volumes of the Majjhima Nikaya (MN). I looked up 136 in all three, since Thanissaro didn't specify which volume, and I could not find anything resembling what he quoted above. Strange. I would advise you to stick with the sermons spoken by Gautama in the first four Nikayas. I think I was careful in setting out the fundamentals of his teaching in A Way of Living. How those fundamentals play out in real time for me, I hope I captured in Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages. I bought a set of the first four Nikayas in the 1980's. You can read them online here, but I think it's better to have them in hand. If you can only afford a few, MN III and SN V have some amazing things in them. I skimmed a lot of sermons, and studied some--maybe every 12th sermon was interesting, to me, and the Pali Text Society translators summarized and eliminated a lot of the repetition, at that. I took notes, they're here. I know that Gautama said there was no closed fist of the teacher in his own case, that he taught both the esoteric and the exoteric, and I think that flies in the face of any "two truths" theory: Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back. (DN 16 PTS: D ii 72 chapters 1-6; Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha tr Sister Vajira & Francis Story)

Looking at the sphenoid and the third ventricle: (from https://www.uchealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/PE-Pituitary-Tumors_UCNI.pdf) Good and positive article refuting all of Sutherland's claims (he being the founder of the Osteopathic school of medicine) with regard to the source of the motion palpated by osteopaths, but suggesting that a rhythm nevertheless exists, and that other sources for the rhythm must be researched: The craniosacral therapy devised by the American osteopath Sutherland bases its theoretical foundations on the movement of the spheno-occipital synchondrosis (SOS) joint and other phenomena, such as the intrinsic oscillations of the nervous tissue, the movement of the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), the mechanical tension resulting from the cranial meninges, the movement of the sacral bone between the iliac bones, and the movements of the skull bones thanks to the sutures. The article reviewed the most recent information on the maturation of the sutures of the SOS and cranial bones, the behavior of the CSF, the maturation of the cranial meninges, and the evolution of the sacroiliac joint. We can strongly advise abandoning the absolute certainty of the validity of the mechanisms devised by Sutherland and looking for new motivations and new methods of palpation, with respect to what is palpated by expert operators, freeing oneself from the school imprinting of 1940. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10552882/)

blue eyed snake, me too: The third ventricle is one of the four connected ventricles of the ventricular system within the mammalian brain. It is a slit-like cavity formed in the diencephalon between the two thalami, in the midline between the right and left lateral ventricles, and is filled with cerebrospinal fluid (CSF). (Wikipedia, "Third Ventricle")

From my site, The Gautamid Offers A Practice: In a chapter devoted to the cultivation of the bases of psychic power, Gautama the Buddha offered a practice in four parts, to wit: So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front. As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front; as below, so above: as above, so below: as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day. Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy. (Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society V p 235) ... “Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.” ... As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid).... The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”). As best as I can figure it. I like the comparison of the eye of horus to the anatomy of the brain: interesting! Looking for an illustration of the location of the pineal relative to the sphenoid, I see the that pituitary gland nests in the sphenoid, but I'm not finding anything about the pineal and the sphenoid. I did find something interesting on a cranial-sacral therapy site: With each breath we take, the nasal conchae fill up with air, which applies pressure on the anterior portion of the sphenoid bone and the sphenoidal sinus where it contacts the basilar portion of the occiput bone. This pressure causes the spheno-basilar junction to move slightly posterior and inferior. On expiration, the spheno-basilar articulation relaxes as the pressure created by the inhaled air is exhaled. This release of pressure causes the spheno-basilar junction to move slightly anterior and superior. These movements of the spheno-basilar junction are believed to drive the cranial-sacral rhythm. This rhythm pumps cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) down through the spinal canal on its journey around the spine, sacrum and back up to the cranium. (https://www.anchordpt.com/single-post/2017/11/05/the-mystery-of-sphenoid-bone-can-bodyworkers-influence-the-cranial-keystone) And, I find this: Cerebrospinal fluid bathes the gland through the pineal recess. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK525955/) If memory serves, my understanding of the support provided by the sphenoid bone to the pineal came from the writings of John Upledger, D.O.. Can't pin that down now, but if the sphenoid moves with respiration and affects pressure in the CSF system, then it may have an effect on the pineal through that fluid. More: It is located posterior to the third ventricle and encloses the small, cerebrospinal fluid-filled pineal recess of the third ventricle which projects into the stalk of the gland. (Wikipedia, "Pineal gland") The pineal recess (PR), a third ventricle (IIIV) evagination penetrating into the pineal gland, could constitute a site of melatonin passage to the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and explain the high concentrations of melatonin in this fluid. ...Therefore, this study identified the localization of the main site of penetration of melatonin into the CSF, the pineal recess. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11751596/#:~:text=The pineal recess (PR)%2C,of melatonin in this fluid.) So that last study did find that the pineal recess was a site of melatonin passage to the CSF, that's what that last sentence says. Does the sphenoid shift in respiration, affect the pressure in the CSF as a result, and probably the circulation of melatonin in the CSF? Eh--maybe!

In Greek mythology, the Rod of Asclepius (⚕; Ancient Greek: Ῥάβδος τοῦ Ἀσκληπιοῦ, Rhábdos toû Asklēpioû, sometimes also spelled Asklepios), also known as the Staff of Aesculapius and as the asklepian, is a serpent-entwined rod wielded by the Greek god Asclepius, a deity associated with healing and medicine. In modern times, it is the predominant symbol for medicine and health care, although it is sometimes confused with the similar caduceus, which has two snakes. (Wikipedia, "Rod of Asclepius") Looking at the entry for caduceus: As a symbol, it represents Hermes (or the Roman Mercury), and by extension trades, occupations, or undertakings associated with the god. In later Antiquity, the caduceus provided the basis for the astronomical symbol for planet Mercury. Thus, through its use in astrology, alchemy, and astronomy it has come to denote the planet Mercury and by extension the eponymous planetary metal. It is said that the wand would wake the sleeping and send the awake to sleep. If applied to the dying, their death was gentle; if applied to the dead, they returned to life. So, no, the ancient symbol that resembles DNA was not associated with healing, although "it was said" that the symbol was associated with waking up and falling asleep. That's a curious thing, that association, as there's a tie-in with the experience of "one-pointedness" that Gautama the Buddha declared was synonymous with concentration (see Waking Up and Falling Asleep), and I would say that concentration is fundamentally a healing thing.

Thanks, S:C, for reading my write and for your appreciation. The six senses are definitely present, when "doing something" in feeling and perceiving cuts out. Here's Gautama's description of the moment he attained "the cessation of feeling and perceiving": …[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society III p 151-152) The sixth sense being the mind. His enlightenment, his insight into dependent causation, apparently followed his attainment of "the cessation of feeling and perceiving". Can I recommend the full context of my previous post?--that would be here: Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages. Took me from 1975 to write that, an explanation of the role of "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" in daily life, based on Gautama's teachings. In plain English, that cessation is the cessation of "doing something" in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation while conscious of inhalation and exhalation, the cessation of both volition and habit in "doing something". #Apech is right, that finding a way to understand not only the terms of the Pali sermons, but the role of the donkey in daily living (see the aforementioned post), does not really take away from the necessity to swim in the sea of emotions that is our humanity. At least, that's the way I see it. So much to learn, so little time.

I'm oftentimes up in the middle of the night, and oftentimes I have to wait for things to come together before I can go back to bed (not like the monastery folks, who get up at 3:30am or 4, stay up, then sleep sitting up in the 6am zazen, then nap at 4pm before staying up to 10 or 11--that was the Chinese monastic routine prior to communism, according to Holmes Welch in his "The Practices of Chinese Buddhism 1900-1950"). I find that I can have good sittings at that hour, but I feel the effects in my knees the next day. So instead, I practice standing as Cheng Man-Ch'ing taught as the preface to the form, and picking up on a natural shift of weight right arm-left leg to left arm-right leg. Sometimes I will continue on with the first part of the form, which is all I know. Sometimes I'll do that part of the form multiple times. Eventually, and usually in no great amount of time, I'll get it together and go back to bed. My summary of the active elements of the mindfulness of body, feelings, mind, and state of mind that Gautama recommended: … thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. (Common Ground) In "Thirteen Chapters", Cheng outlines nine stages in the development of ch'i, and they mostly revolve around the role of ligaments in the practice. I explore the context of his outline in A Way of Living, too much to quote here but foundational when I sit. Relaxation first, then reciprocal innervation and stretch, in my experience. "Song" is a tough one for me. If that were not so, I never would have explored the teachings! Occasionally I feel I've made progress on that, but more important to me is my approach. An alternative to the distinction you draw between thought and "present awareness": There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages ... When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. (At such a moment,) the flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases .... Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. ... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention. ... Applying and sustaining thought would appear to be a preparatory practice, but in Gautama’s “intent concentration” (the mindfulness described in Anapanasati Sutta), the thought comes out of necessity in the free placement of attention in the movement of breath. The free placement of attention only occurs with clarity in the fourth concentration, but... such freedom is inherent in human nature. ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (sentences taken from Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added)

I would take issue only with the notion that they were necessarily consecutive steps, although they may unfold in that manner. Gautama described the sixteen as his way of living, and divided them into sets, four each for the body, the feelings, the mind, and the states of mind. Without cessation, though, the set has no axis. Excerpts from a post on my own site, that I hope give a better idea: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages ... When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. (At such a moment,) the flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases .... Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. ... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention. ... Applying and sustaining thought would appear to be a preparatory practice, but in Gautama’s “intent concentration” (the mindfulness described in Anapanasati Sutta), the thought comes out of necessity in the free placement of attention in the movement of breath. The free placement of attention only occurs with clarity in the fourth concentration, but... such freedom is inherent in human nature. ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (sentences taken from Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added)

Hate to break it to you, old3bob: The Nine Cemetery Contemplations (Satipatthana Sutta) (1) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body dead one, two, or three days; swollen, blue and festering, thrown in the charnel ground, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it." Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-factors in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-factors in the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body. (2) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, being eaten by crows, hawks, vultures, dogs, jackals or by different kinds of worms, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it." Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body... (3) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton with some flesh and blood attached to it, held together by the tendons... (4) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton blood-besmeared and without flesh, held together by the tendons... (5) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to a skeleton without flesh and blood, held together by the tendons... (6) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground and reduced to disconnected bones, scattered in all directions_here a bone of the hand, there a bone of the foot, a shin bone, a thigh bone, the pelvis, spine and skull... (7) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bleached bones of conchlike color... (8) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground reduced to bones, more than a year-old, lying in a heap... (9) And further, monks, as if a monk sees a body thrown in the charnel ground, reduced to bones gone rotten and become dust, he then applies this perception to his own body thus: "Verily, also my own body is of the same nature; such it will become and will not escape it." Thus he lives contemplating the body in the body internally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body externally, or he lives contemplating the body in the body internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination factors in the body, or he lives contemplating dissolution factors in the body, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution factors in the body. Or his mindfulness is established with the thought: "The body exists," to the extent necessary just for knowledge and mindfulness, and he lives detached, and clings to nothing in the world. Thus also, monks, a monk lives contemplating the body in the body. Also, in his prescription for the development of psychic powers, Gautama spoke of "as below, so above; as above, so below." He explained this: Herein (one) surveys this very body upwards from the soles of the feet, downwards from the top of the head, as something enclosed by skin and full of manifold impurities. He thus considers: There are in this body hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, skin, teeth, flesh, nerves, intestines, mesentery, stomach, feces, blie, phlegm, matter, blood, sweat, lymph, fat, tears, lubricant, saliva, mucus, oil, urine. That... is how (one) dwells "as below, so above; as above, so below." If the medical science of the time had been more advanced, I'm sure he would have mentioned the organs as well. The cemetery contemplations are particularly interesting to me, because he observed "held together by the tendons", so he knew what the tendons were, although I think the reference is really to ligaments, since the ligaments connect bone to bone (not the tendons, which are muscle to bone). The Tai-Chi master Cheng Man-ch'ing mentions three stages in the development of chi, and all of them involve attention to the ligaments (see A Way of Living).

Me, I need an action plan, even if it's just a description of how inaction takes place. The quote from Suzuki is one of my favorites: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. ... There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages ... When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. (At such a moment,) the flow of “doing something” in the body, of activity initiated by habit or volition, ceases .... Instead, activity is generated purely by the placement of attention, and the location of attention can flow. ... The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention ... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (sentences taken from Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages, emphasis added) Context matters, to me.