Mark Foote

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  1. With Guest Mark Foote 12 hours ago Follow Mark Foote's unique way-seeking mind story and thought. Delve into it at zenmudra.com and at Zazen Notes on Facebook. https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-dxczk-148dd26 My thanks to David Chadwick, author of "Crooked Cucumber" and "Thank You and Ok!: An American Zen Failure in Japan"; principal archivist of the teachings of Shunryu Suzuki, founding teacher of the S. F. Zen Center. transcript

  2. losing track

    Mark Foote replied to old3bob's topic in General Discussion

  3. I corrected "Dona the brahman" to "Dona the brahmin", thanks, old3bob.
  4. this is where my brain skids to a screaching halt. would become, future tense, doesn't fit for me. Are there translations that render it this way? The questions Dona asked were all about what Gautama would become after his passing. The last of them, and Gautama's response (abbreviated): "Then your worship will become a human being?" "No indeed, brahman, I'll not become a human being." ... "Who then, pray, will your worship become?" Brahmin, those asavas whereby, if they were not abandoned, I should become... a human being,--those asavas in me are abandoned, cut off at the root, made like a palm tree stump, made non-existent, of a nature not to arise again in future time. Just as, brahmin, a lotus, blue, red, or white, though born in the water, grown up in the water, when it reaches the surface stands there unsoiled by the water,--just so, brahmin, though born in the world, grown up in the world, having overcome the world, I abide unsoiled by the world. Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin. (AN text ii, 37; iv, IV, 36; Pali Text Society AN vol II Book of Fours p 44) Dona the brahmin is asking what he will become. Apparently Gautama felt that in answering "take it that I am a Buddha", he answered that question. That's why I said "of what he would become (and what he was)". The question was about what he will become, but his answer was present tense, that's why I put "and what he was" in parenthesis--he is saying what he is, but in answer to what he will become. Sorry if that was confusing (it is confusing). Right, my literal word-for-word translation. Again, the original spoken sermon was not in Pali. Your friend confirms no indefinite article, but can he say that the indefinite article would not have been lost in the transition from whatever language Gautama spoke to Pali, 5 centuries after Gautama? What are you thinking the analysis will reveal? You have something in mind, depending on that article, or some other aspect of "take it that I am a Buddha"? The absence of the asavas--here's Gautama's description of his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving": …[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152) Although "the cessation of feeling and perceiving" is not a permanent state, apparently the destruction of the asavas ("cankers") is.

  5. With Guest Mark Foote--Cuke Audio Podcast

    Mark Foote replied to Mark Foote's topic in General Discussion

    Don't know if you're familiar with David's work--the book is "Crooked Cucumber: The Life and Zen Teaching of Shunryu Suzuki". Suzuki's teacher in Japan used to refer to Suzuki as "crooked cucumber", meaning the kind of cucumber nobody would buy--hence the title of the book and the website. I like the book a lot, it's an unvarnished biography, and David is like that--no pretense, the human side of things. Plus an amazing archive of all things Suzuki Roshi and S. F. Zen Center early days, online. Hope you like the podcast, it was recorded in early June (David is 'way behind in putting them up).
  6. Your friend is right, of course. Pali was not even the language spoken by Gautama. Nevertheless, when I read the words in the first four Nikayas attributed to Gautama, I'm amazed at the consistency of what Gautama said (and what he didn't). I think many of the sermons are considered to have come out of his attendant Ananda's memory--Ananda apparently had a photographic memory for sound. My takeaway is that Gautama would not have offered that final assessment of what he would become (and what he was) if he had not been pressed (by that last question, about whether he would become a human being). Thanissaro changed the context a little, saying "Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'" I prefer (as usual) the Woodward translation (Pali Text Society), "Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin." There's a reason the Pali Text Society translators left the word "Buddha" in their translations, and that would be the difficulty of translating the term. Also, I think Woodward's translation sounds like something that would have closed the discussion, and I don't see any reference to remembering in the literal translation--I wonder where Thanissaro got that. "Buddha as such when I am dead Brahman call it time"
  7. What can't be done? Cat where my keyboard normally rests, makes things difficult interesting. Shikantaza can't be "done". But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335) Suzuki says that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of doing something, and that “doing something” makes the practice only preparatory. The implication, I think, is that shikantaza can't be "done". What's a mother to do, about getting no-thing done! Working on a piece now: Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, attention can also take place in the body without direction, as a function of the movement of breath: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) In my experience, that’s especially true when a bent-knee posture is maintained over a period of time.
  8. Cobie, I deleted the material in the quote boxes. The sentence I requoted in my text and commented on, I did not delete. That sentence particularly spoke to my experience, and I'd like to keep it.
  9. Haven't found the Pali for you yet. Googling "Anguttara Book of Fours 36" yields other translations. Here's Bhikkyu Thanissaro, who uses "awake" instead of "Buddha": "When asked, 'Are you a deva?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a deva.' When asked, 'Are you a gandhabba?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a gandhabba.' When asked, 'Are you a yakkha?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a yakkha.' When asked, 'Are you a human being?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a human being.' Then what sort of being are you?" "Brahman, the fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a deva: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. The fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a gandhabba... a yakkha... a human being: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. "Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.' "The fermentations by which I would go to a deva-state, or become a gandhabba in the sky, or go to a yakkha-state & human-state: Those have been destroyed by me, ruined, their stems removed. Like a blue lotus, rising up, unsmeared by water, unsmeared am I by the world, and so, brahman, I'm awake." (https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.036.than.html) Ok, here's the Pali: https://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pali/an/04_fours/an04.036.pali.bd.htm The line in question appears to be: "Buddhoti maṃ brāhmaṇa dhārehī" ti." Lots of dictionaries, here: https://www.lexilogos.com/english/pali_dictionary.htm So Buddho is Buddha, in the Pali Text Society's dictionary, but I don't know the grammer to know what the suffix "ti" does to the word. Ok, "ti or iti means like this, as such" (from https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/ti#:~:text=Pali-English dictionary&text=(used to point out something,and ti only is remaining.) literal translation: "Buddha as such when I am dead Brahman call it time". And they lived happily ever after.
  10. Boo on Sotoshu, that they don't credit their translators. Emphasis added. "Shikantaza is the place, and things" (Kobun, from the Jijkoji website). The place and no-thing, things and no-thing. It can't be done, of course.
  11. Missed that, until people quoted it. Certainly admire that. "Like the air I breath". "Who cooks for you", said the owl.
  12. Daniel stands revealed as a developer... I suspected as much! An example of my work, with the team at a local junior college: https://getthatwebsite.com/mathskills/371/index.html#/units
  13. I've noticed that you do delete many of your posts. I was hastening to comment on that one, expecting that you might, and for me the post was as valid as anything else on the forum. I wanted to continue the thought, to encourage you to continue the thought. As it were!
  14. I agree, the language is very important. The memory plays tricks. I thought he was responding to a question about what he was, but he was responding to a question about what he would become after his time in this world. And yet, the verb tense in his final response would seem to be about what he was. Apparently the term "buddha" had a connotation about what a person would become in the next and subsequent worlds that was widely understood at the time? People today mostly associate it with enlightenment in this life, and don't think of the significance of the word beyond that. To be a buddha was to be something more than a "non-returner". Seems to me there is a lecture where Gautama addresses his cosmology in more substantive terms, but I can't recall where it is at the moment. Meanwhile: Your worship will become a deva? No indeed, brahmin. I'll not become a deva. Then your worship will become a gandarva? No indeed, brahmin, I'll not become a gandarva. A yakka, then? No indeed, brahmin. Not a yakka. Then your worship will become a human being? No indeed, brahmin. I'll not become a human being. ... Who then, pray, will your worship become? ... Just as, brahmin, a lotus, blue, red, or white, though born in the water, grown up in the water, when it reaches the surface stands there unsoiled by the water,--just so, brahmin, though born in the world, grown up in the world, having overcome the world, I abide unsoiled by the world. Take it that I am a Buddha, brahmin. (AN Book of Fours 36, Pali Text Society AN Vol 2 p 44)
  15. Darned if Daniel wasn't right, two fast "enter"s and the quote split. "Most people are not on a spiritual path because they already have what’s being looked for on a spiritual path." I would certainly agree with that. What I need is the thing that results in me already having what is looked for on the spiritual path. Six senses, in the teaching of the Gautamid, including the mind: "And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 151-152) That's from Gautama's description of his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving", the last attainment, the one associated with his enlightenment. So a degree of disturbance associated with the mind is to be expected, even in the attainment associated with enlightenment (which enlightenment consists of insight into dependent causation as a result of the ceasing of volition in feeling and perceiving).
  16. Everybody thinks they have to do the Buddha one better. There's a thread across the early sermon volumes that actually makes sense, but there are fifteen volumes of sermons, and a lot of repetition. I continue to maintain that the essential practice is like the practice involved in lucid dreaming, basically trying to stay conscious while falling asleep. As I've said, at some moment the movement of breath begins to place attention, and that attention shifts and moves. In lucid dreaming, the idea is that attention can then move out of the body, but when attention moves in the body, the activity of the body follows automatically from the location of attention. In particular, the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows automatically. …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294) …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146; emphasis added) When the automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows from the location of attention, "determinate thought" in inbreathing and outbreathing has ceased.
  17. I think not even after. I quoted from a sermon a week or so ago, where someone was asking Gautama exactly what he was--a deva, a god, how should he be thought of. Gautama denied all the labels, "no I'm not (that)", then said, "take it that I am a Buddha". Like, just go ahead and use this, if you must use something, but really what I am can't be defined.
  18. I think I have better luck getting it to break if I use shift-enter, than just enter (where's the Dao Bums mini-editor instruction manual!).
  19. email to some friends, today: I’m always about to turn a corner, I’ve felt that way since the 80’s. I finally knuckled down to studying some anatomy/kinesthesiology in the second half of the eighties, when the corner didn’t come. I may be mastering some of that kinesthesiology now, in the early 2020’s, mostly because I see the role of letting the movement of breath place attention in the body (and because I can describe it to myself in that way). There’s relaxing, calming the stretch, detaching from thought, and letting the movement of breath place attention, so that the activity of the body in respiration becomes automatic through that placement. In a rhythm, an occasional rhythm for me right now. Maybe I can turn a corner yet, but it’s grace that grants grace. I have sat a couple of lotuses, just for twenty-five minutes, in the last couple of weeks. Not unpleasant, this time around. Not bliss. Not overcoming the hindrances, or living a more upright life. Just sitting.
  20. More like: The sixth patriarch of Zen in China pointed directly to the mind moving: Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said: “The flag is moving.” The other said: “The wind is moving.” The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them: “Not the wind, not the flag; mind is moving.” (“Gateless Gate” collection) To me, what the sixth patriarch said was, pay attention to the singularity of self-awareness that moves, not to the flag or the wind. (Not the Wind, Not the Flag) So, pay attention to the placement of attention by the movement of breath, the singularity of self-awareness that can move, not the hammer, the nails, or the wall. It's not that they don't exist, it's that they are irrelevant when action comes out of the placement of mind rather than the exercise of will.
  21. There's a place in the Pali sermons where followers of another teaching, possibly Jainism, admonish their disciples against going to hear the Gautamid speak. He's handsome, and ever-so-good at logic, they say--you'll be seduced by his presence, so don't go, they say. Something like that. Can't find it at the moment, oh well. The Buddha did not promise bliss, so far as I know, in the record of his teachings that historians consider to be the most accurate (the first four compilations of sermons, in the Pali Canon). He didn't discount logic. He did emphasize that there's a happiness apart from sensual desire and apart from unskilled states of mind, apart from the pleasant things of life. That's all. His voice in the first four Nikayas is like no other in the literature of the world, so far as I know. Not even his major disciples come close. Same is true for the voice attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas. Yuanwu in "Zen Letters", also exceptional.

  22. Unpopular Opinions

    Mark Foote replied to Apech's topic in General Discussion

    I find that opinion distasteful, and I hope it's unpopular!
  23. By no means, perpetual. Gautama said that there's a happiness inherent in all the states of concentration he outlined, including the "cessation of feeling and perceiving", which is either the last state of concentration or the transcending of the states of concentration--it's unclear which, from the sermons. Gautama said he spent most of his time in the first concentration, the one with thought "applied and sustained", especially in the rainy season (when he would have spent most of his time in meditation, I presume). But none of the states of concentration are permanent. Here's the way I understand the trick. Once a cessation of volition in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation has been arrived at, then a recollection of the overview of the body at the time of the cessation is sufficient to return to that concentration, as necessary. A rhythm of thoughts applied and sustained is set up, a rhythm that includes thought of that cessation, and perhaps experience of that cessation. There's a kind of peace in that rhythm of thought, and although there's no happiness apart from equanimity in that cessation, there is happiness both in the thought applied and sustained of the first state and in the cessation (the fourth state). Not a bliss, and temporary states even if Gautama spent most of his time in the first of them. For me, "laying hold of one-pointedness of mind" requires relaxation, calm, detachment, and presence. To me, those are roughly the actionable elements of the sixteen thoughts "applied and sustained" that made up Gautama's way of living. Also staying awake to see the placement of attention, the "one-pointedness", shift as a function of the movement of breath--but that's presence. Not necessary to stay awake, of course. I follow the placement of attention to fall asleep, every night. I said "the trick". The peace that I mentioned can affect others, affect their state of mind, and the presence involved can impress others. Is it possible to convey to others the means to experience the cessation of volitive activity in the body in inhalation and exhalation, through words? The Zen school says no. I've got four people who might say otherwise, though they mostly experience the cessation in falling asleep. There are folks out there who call themselves Buddhist, whose beliefs have little or nothing to do with the teachings of Gautama the Shakyan as recorded in the first four sermon collections of the Pali Canon. Or whose teachings skirt the periphery, and never touch on "one-pointedness" or the concentrations as Gautama taught them. I agree with Gautama that suffering is a matter of identification of an abiding self with phenomena of form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or consciousness, that seems true to me based on my experience. Pain's another matter. There are several accounts of followers of Gautama going to the bedside of an individual in pain, dying, and being unable to persuade that individual, a person who had at least in part mastered Gautama's teaching, to bear up with the pain--the person in pain took the knife, instead. Gautama was an ascetic for years, basically denying himself almost unto death. Gautama attained the ceasing of volition in feeling and perceiving, which two of the foremost teachers of India in his day had not attained. He was exceptional. I'm only shooting for something more than the relationship with myself I had in high school. Looks like I've succeeded (they voted me "most likely to succeed" in my high school, ironic).
  24. My favorite SF band of the eighties--Jack Cassidy of Jefferson Airplane fame joined a punk L.A. band and brought them back to San Francisco.

  25. Unpopular Opinions

    Mark Foote replied to Apech's topic in General Discussion

    At last! Some real peas!