Mark Foote

Well, but really--"Includes a step-by-step procedure to full enlightenment; not as easy as one might think"? I think of that as the popular opinion, actually. You're right, that while the insight into dependent causation is associated with "the cessation of perceiving and feeling", the concentration is not the insight, in the teaching of Gautama. Gautama said that there was a happiness associated with all the jhanas, including the last, but bliss, I'm not so sure. I don't think so. That's more of an East Indian thing, Hindu maybe, or later Buddhism, in my estimation. Attachment is a possibility with anything in this world. Right concentration: And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added) Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) Gautama sometimes spoke of the "five limbs of concentration", those being the first four jhanas together with the "survery-sign" of the concentration, an overview of the body arrived at from the fourth concentration. The fourth concentration is marked by "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) inbreathing and outbreathing", and Gautama's way of living included the witness of cessation in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation as part of a rhythm of thoughts applied and sustained. Not necessary to knock oneself out to attain the cessation of perceiving and feeling and insight into dependent causation, to realize a way of living that is "a thing perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living besides." But yeah, they stopped passing along the robe and bowl in China, after the sixth patriarch was chased and his life threatened because of the perceived value of the objects. Everybody wants "full enlightenment", even though it's "not as easy as one might think!" Most of the folks receiving transmission have only experienced the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, in my estimation. Some, not even that, but they profess unshakeable insight into the lack of any abiding self. I wonder about that, but I know there's a sermon where Gautama said that among his followers, there were those enlightened in two different ways. Can't quote chapter and verse, right now. Only necessary to remain awake to where I am, as I am: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground)

All as far as I know. "The jhanas are altered states of consciousness which are produced from periods of strong concentration. Although not enlightenment experiences, they do provide much needed experience into the Path and explain much of the cosmology in an experiential way. For example, each jhana tends to correspond to one or more heavenly realms in the cosmology. By attaining different levels of jhana, the meditator increases the likelihood of being re-born to a heavenly plane of existence. If you pass away while meditating at one of the jhanic levels, you will be re-born to that heavenly existence. If you pass away when you are not in a meditation session, but have attained to a certain level of jhana in the past, you can still be re-born to one of those heavenly planes." (https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/9_Jhanas; "Adapted from a chapter from "Buddha's Lists", book by David N. Snyder, Ph.D.") I would guess that the entry in "dhammawiki" was made by none other than David N. Snyder, PhD, himself. The promo for his book on Amazon, which promo I'm sure was also written by Dr. Snyder, reads: A detailed explanation of all of the important lists of the Buddha. Includes a step-by-step procedure to full enlightenment; not as easy as one might think! I've read the first four Nikayas of the Pali Canon, I don't recall reading anything about an equivalence between the jhanas and heavenly realms. At his passing, Gautama is reported to have attained the states of concentration in order, through "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) perceiving and feeling", the final attainment. Then he is said to have walked the states backward to the fourth of the initial states, of the "material" (rupa) jhanas. In that state, he died (Digha Nikaya "Mahaparanibbana Sutta"). Now I'm sure that was an addition by the later editors, so that the disciples wouldn't feel they had to attain "the cessation of perceiving and feeling" in their last breath. Gautama often stopped his description of the states of concentration with the fourth, and then described the "survey-sign" of the concentration, an overview of the body by which the fourth concentration could presumably be recalled as necessary. The "survey-sign" he termed "the fifth limb of concentration"--that says to me that the attainment of the four rupa jhanas and the survey-sign were the normal practice of concentration for him, and the attainment of the further states was the exception. I'm writing a piece now, my take on some things Shunryu Suzuki said: Suzuki mentioned the first, second and third stages of concentration in his description of "preparatory zazen": Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages. (70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, “question and answer”) I’ve written about Gautama’s metaphors for the first three stages of concentration (Common Ground). In my experience, the metaphors are a way to identify the particular feeling in concentration that is most conducive to “one-pointedness” at the moment, and apart from “one-pointedness” they have no meaning. "One-pointedness" refers to the feeling of the placement of attention when the placement of attention is a function of the movement of breath: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) You were just joking, right Apech, and I've wasted my breath?

Closest I've read, in the Pali sermons--bear in mind that "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) perceiving and feeling" is the attainment associated with Gautama's enlightenment (the substance of that enlightenment being his insight into dependent causation): … the situation occurs, Ananda, when wanderers belonging to other sects may speak thus: ‘The recluse (Gautama) speaks of the stopping of perceiving and feeling, and lays down that this belongs to happiness. Now what is this, now how is this?’ Ananda, wanderers belonging to other sects who speak thus should be spoken to thus: ‘Your reverences, (Gautama) does not lay down that it is only pleasant feeling that belongs to happiness; for, your reverences, the Tathagatha (the “Thus-Gone One”, the Buddha) lays down that whenever, wherever, whatever happiness is found it belongs to happiness. (MN I 400, Pali Text Society MN Vol. II p 69) What does continue for one who has attained "the cessation of perceiving and feeling" and insight into conditional genesis is a particular relationship with the five hindrances, the hindrances being sensual lust, malevolence, sloth and torpor, excitement and flurry, and doubt and waivering. Gautama said that the learner has the hindrances in check (not remembering the exact wording), but the arahant has cut them off at the root, as a person might cut a palm tree off at the root. Can't find the sermon right now, came across it the other day looking for something. There's a happiness associated with each of the states of concentration, even though happiness apart from equanimity (with respect to the multiplicity of the senses) ceases in the fourth concentration. As in the quote above, there's even a happiness after the fourth of the further states is transcended (the fourth further state marked by "equanimity with respect to uniformity" and "neither-perceiving-and-feeling-nor-not"). As I've said elsewhere, I think the notion of everlasting bliss is more of a Hindu or East Indian assumption than a Buddhist or Daoist one.

Gödel's incompleteness theorems are two theorems of mathematical logic that are concerned with the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. These results, published by Kurt Gödel in 1931, are important both in mathematical logic and in the philosophy of mathematics. The theorems are widely, but not universally, interpreted as showing that Hilbert's program to find a complete and consistent set of axioms for all mathematics is impossible. The first incompleteness theorem states that no consistent system of axioms whose theorems can be listed by an effective procedure (i.e., an algorithm) is capable of proving all truths about the arithmetic of natural numbers. For any such consistent formal system, there will always be statements about natural numbers that are true, but that are unprovable within the system. The second incompleteness theorem, an extension of the first, shows that the system cannot demonstrate its own consistency. (Wikipedia, "Gödel's incompleteness theorems") Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything, but after considering Gödel's Theorem, he concluded that one was not obtainable. "Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind." (Wikipedia, "Theory of Everything") The Hawking quote is from a lecture he gave, that ends: Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. I'm now glad that our search for understanding will never come to an end, and that we will always have the challenge of new discovery. Without it, we would stagnate. Godel’s theorem ensured there would always be a job for mathematicians. I think M theory will do the same for physicists. I'm sure Dirac would have approved. (Godel and the end of physics, 2002, Stephen Hawking Estate) In logic, the law of excluded middle (or the principle of excluded middle) states that for every proposition, either this proposition or its negation is true. ... According to Brouwer, a statement that an object exists having a given property means that, and is only proved, when a method is known which in principle at least will enable such an object to be found or constructed … Hilbert naturally disagreed. "Pure existence proofs have been the most important landmarks in the historical development of our science," he maintained. (Reid p. 155) Brouwer refused to accept the logical principle of the excluded middle. ... In his lecture in 1941 at Yale and the subsequent paper, Gödel proposed a solution: "that the negation of a universal proposition was to be understood as asserting the existence … of a counterexample" (Dawson, p. 157) ... The debate seemed to weaken: mathematicians, logicians and engineers continue to use the law of excluded middle (and double negation) in their daily work. (Wikipedia, "Law of excluded middle") Well, I don't claim to be a logician. When I get to the predicate calculus, my mind boggles.

Nope, not a Feldenkrais practitioner, per se. I left a large section out of my previous quote (from my A Way of Living), but since you asked! (you didn't, but I'm going to say that you did): Feldenkrais spoke about shifting “the center of gravity”. In his “Introduction to Zen Training”, Rinzai master Omori Sogen offered a quote from Hida Haramitsu, who spoke of shifting ‘the center of the body’s weight”: We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body. (Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added) Feldenkrais described how shifting the center of gravity over the feet can generate an “automatic movement” in the legs. Haramitsu spoke of shifting “the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body”, and I believe that such a shift can set up “automatic” activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. Feldenkrais described the origin of the automatic movement in the legs as “the old nervous system”. While the movement may indeed be coordinated by the autonomic nervous system, I suspect the activity is initiated through the stretch of ligaments. Feldenkrais’s exercises allow for the relaxation of the muscles of the lower body, so that the weight of the upper body can rest on particular ligaments. I believe that when the stretch in those ligaments is sufficient, they can initiate the activity of standing. I would say that the relaxed awareness of the balance of the body that Haramitsu described similarly allows the weight of the body to come to bear on particular ligaments, and the shift in the weight of the body that he prescribed initiates activity to relieve shearing stress on the spine in inhalation and exhalation. The classic literature of Tai Chi appears to identify the ligaments of the body as a source of activity. The literature describes three levels in the development of “ch’i”, a word that literally translates as “breath” but in practice is taken to refer to a fundamental energy of the body, and each of the three levels has three stages. The stages of the first level are: “… relaxing the ligaments from the shoulder to the wrist”; “from the hip joint to the heel”; “from the sacrum to the headtop”. (“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78) Unlike the contraction and relaxation of muscles, the stretch and resile of ligaments can’t be voluntarily controlled. The muscles across the joints can, however, be relaxed in such a way as to allow the natural stretch and resile of ligaments–that would seem to be the meaning of the advice to “relax the ligaments”. The stages of the second level are: “sinking ch’i to the tan t’ien” (a point below and behind the navel); “the ch’i reaches the arms and legs”; “the ch’i moves through the sacrum (wei lu) to the top of the head (ni wan)”. (ibid) Tai Ch’i master Cheng Man Ch’ing advised that the ch’i will collect at the tan-t’ien until it overflows into the tailbone and transits to the top of the head, but he warned against any attempt to force the flow. Omori Sogen cautioned similarly: … It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting. We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force. (“An Introduction to Zen Training: A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59) I would posit that the patterns in the development of ch’i reflect involuntary activity of the body generated in the stretch of ligaments. There is, in addition, a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that can be effected by pressure generated in the abdominal cavity and that may quite possibly depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract (see my Kinesthesiology of Fascial Support). The final level in the development of ch’i concerns “chin”. According to the classics, “chin comes from the ligaments”. The three stages of the final level are: “t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”; “omnipotence”. (“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78) Another translator rendered the last stage above as “perfect clarity” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 57). In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is “the pureness of (one’s) mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration. The Tai Chi classics emphasize relaxation. For me, calm is also required with regard to the stretch of ligaments, if “automatic movement” is to be realized. The stretch of a ligament prior to strain is small (6%), and I would say that automatic movement is only initiated at the edge of the range. Cheng Man Ch’ing mentioned a Chinese description of seated meditation, “straighten the chest and sit precariously” (ibid p 21)–I think that also speaks to the necessity of calm.

“Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel… is strung on a thread, blue-green… or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine… is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away… and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there….” (MN II 17, Vol II pg 217; see also AN IV 304-305, Vol IV pg 202-203) In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152; emphasis added) Gain is delusion; loss is enlightenment. (Kodo Sawaki) Here’s a paragraph or two from Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematics: Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity–the number line’s promise of continuing forever–but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object. Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens. The mathematician Poincare sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, "actual infinity"): There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincare [Les mathematiques et la logique III, Rev. metaphys. morale (1906) p. 316]) I would say that the assumption of the existence of a completed infinite, as in “True Nature”, or “Dao”, or “God”, will result in contradictions, and such an assumption isn’t really required to benefit from the positive and substantive particulars in most of the wisdom teachings of the world. At the same time, there’s a lot of useful mathematics that relies on the notion of a completed infinity for proof, and I would guess the majority of people on this earth find terms like “True Nature” useful as a means of orientating themselves in everyday living. (About Completed Infinities [“True Nature”])

The disciple of Yuanwu in China attempted to destroy all the copies along with the wood printing blocks of his master's "Blue Cliff Record". Yuanwu approved of his understanding, saying something like "now you know that I haven't been kidding you, all this time." I'm very grateful for the Pali sermon volumes, and the "Blue Cliff Record". For the "Gospel According to Thomas", and Cheng Man-Ching's "Thirteen Chapters". If you have some experience with maps, and a few basic tools, you can successfully navigate over the horizon. Some indigenous sailors in the South Seas can do it by instinct, but when you ask them for an explanation, all you get is nonsense. "How to make use of the mind", as Shunryu Suzuki described it, follows from seeing the mind made proper use of. That's not the same as enlightenment, I don't think. The examples of the sayings you provided feature several East Indian voices. I meant to point out earlier on the thread, that the association of bliss with enlightenment seems to me more like a Hindu (or at any rate, East Indian) assumption than a Buddhist or Daoist one. Or by having an exceptional reach? I'm with galen_burnett on that, or with old3bob ("The Self (by Grace) chooses the Self, for not even intelligence or hard effort (which are preparations) has the power of that choice").

I'll try again. No, not "subsumed into our body and psyche, into our autonomic-nervous-system, such that we no longer even need to think about it and the practice and the benefits of the practice all happen automatically?" The pieces are going to fall together in a different pattern every day, maybe every time you sit down and allow that to happen. When the pieces fall together, it's just the way it was before, the movement of breath takes place autonomically. The difference is, that the activity of the body coordinates from the placement of consciousness, and that placement can move. Yes, that's the way it is normally, but here there's awareness of the body, awareness of the placement of consciousness, but no doing in the body on the part of the mind. Just sit and be with awareness. It's not the repetition that makes it work. There's a sense of freedom, a sense of well-being, and those feelings become a draw just like other things that provide a sense of freedom and well-being (like the merry-go-round and the wall-of-death at the county fair--you know!). Belly-breathing is a good example. The Daoists say that the Buddhists belly-breath one way, and Daoists another. Skip that. The placement of awareness, of attention, can effect the activity of breath. Does that placement fall to the center of gravity, when the eyes are less of an influence on the location of awareness? Often, in my experience. Does that change the nature of the breath, in some respects?--yes. There's a relationship between relaxation and the stretch of ligaments, that can come down to particulars. There's the oddity of the one place in the body where muscles push instead of pull (behind the sacrum, the mass of the extensors in contraction push rearward against the thoracolumbar fascia). There's the strange science of how pressure can be sustained by the abdominals in the "fluid ball" of the abdomen without impinging on the motion of the diaphragm, and that pressure in the "fluid ball" can displace the thoracolumbar fascia behind the lower spine by a millimeter or so and thereby provide support to the lower spine. These things have their moments, in "laying hold of one-pointedness"--in the tendency of that one-pointedness, in spite of a freedom of movement, to remain in the lower abdomen. The generation of the activity in breath is effortless with one-pointedness, and the amount of practice is immaterial without it. I agree. The trick is the experience that koun Franz described as "the mind moving away from the head", which as he said cannot be done willfully. My own description is very pedestrian, but I have at least four people who have found my instructions helpful in falling asleep, particularly after awakening in the middle of the night: I have a practice that I’d like to offer, something that I believe is already part of the general repertoire of this community, even though the details I will provide here are new. The practice I have in mind is a practice that everybody is already familiar with, even if they don’t think of it as a practice. What I’m referring to is waking up in the morning, or falling asleep at night; if you’ve ever had a hard time waking up or falling asleep, then you know that there can indeed be a practice! In my experience, the practice is the same, whether I am waking up or falling asleep: when I realize my physical sense of location in space, and realize it as it occurs from one moment to the next, then I wake up or fall asleep as appropriate. This practice is useful, when I wake up in the middle of the night and need to go back to sleep, or when I want to feel more physically alive in the morning. This practice is also useful when I want to feel my connection to everything around me, because my sense of place registers the contact of my awareness with each thing, as contact occurs. Just before I fall asleep, my awareness can move very readily, and my sense of where I am tends to move with it. This is also true when I am waking up, although it can be harder to recognize (I tend to live through my eyes in the daytime, and associate my sense of place with them). When my awareness shifts readily, I realize that my ability to feel my location in space is made possible in part by the freedom of my awareness to move. I sometimes overlook my location in space because I attach to what I’m feeling, or I’m averse to it, or I ignore it. The result is that I lose the freedom of my awareness to shift and move, and I have difficulty relaxing or staying alert. When I allow what I feel to enter into where I am, then my awareness remains free, and I can relax and keep my wits about me. (Waking Up and Falling Asleep)

Here's something from koan Franz's website: Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/) The mind that shifts and moves is "one-pointed", in Gautama's words. ... making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind. Suzuki said: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. (“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added) “Your mind should be concentrated in your breathing”—the presence of mind that allows the placement of attention by the breath to shift and move involves concentration. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear--nevertheless, the freedom of attention to shift and move as a function of breath is not absolute until the location of attention can move as though in open space, an experience that marks the induction of the fourth concentration. In the fourth concentration, the location of attention generates automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation. That's the meaning of "the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing". And sometimes zazen gets up and walks around, that's the automatic activity that's generated, but usually it's just: ... automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows from "one-pointedness" that moves as though in open space. The effortlessness of the generation of automatic activity, even if the activity is strenuous, is a natural draw. There's always something different in making self-surrender the object of thought. Not that concentration becomes second nature, but that the well-being draws a person on, and everyday the pieces have to be allowed to fall together anew.

I wasn't happy with my mind, my use of my mind, as a teenager. In 1975, I got up one day determined to be mindful of each inhalation, and each exhalation, all day long. Sometime in the early afternoon, my body got up out of the chair I was sitting in, and walked to the door.. In the 80's, I went to hear Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa speak at S. F. Zen Center. He closed his lecture by saying, "you know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around". Buddhists aren't usually familiar with what's in the original sermons of the Gautama the Shakyan, and I can't blame them. The sermons make no coherent sense, unless fragments of the teaching across different volumes in the four original collections are pieced together. Suffice it to say, that although Gautama attained "the cessation of (determinate thought in) feeling and perceiving" and his enlightenment was associated with that, in daily life the more important concentration to him was "the cessation of (determinate thought in) inbreathing and outbreathing". That's the cessation of volition in action of the body, rather than in action of the mind. I can say that with certainty because he frequently concluded his description of the first four concentrations (the fourth being "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing") with a description of what he called "the fifth limb of concentration", the survey-sign of the body that allowed the recall of the fourth concentration as necessary. My post A Way of Living, on my own site, concludes: I’ve written about my approach (to the mindfulness that constituted Gautama's way of living): I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep. (Response to "Not the Wind, Not the Flag") Gautama said that the mindfulness he recommended was his way of living, when he was “as yet the bodhisattva” (before his enlightenment). He identified the same mindfulness as “the Tathagatha’s way of living” (his way of living after enlightenment). Such a mindfulness was, he said, something “peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too” (Sanyutta Nikaya V Pali Text Society p 285). Many people in the Buddhist community take enlightenment to be the goal of Buddhist practice. I would say that when a person consciously experiences automatic movement in the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation, finding a way of life that allows for such experience in the natural course of things becomes the more pressing concern. Gautama taught such a way of living, although I don’t believe that such a way of living is unique to Buddhism. Even though Gautama taught his own way of living, and described it as "something perfect in itself", folks think they have to attain enlightenment, they want to magically turn a corner and find themselves transformed. When my body got up and walked around, my life was transformed in that I could recall how that experience felt, but I didn't understand the place of that experience in daily life, at all. I believe this, from Kodo Sawaki: Gain is delusion, loss is enlightenment.

Really beautiful! Navajo sand painting, back at you (not on my wall, alas): (from https://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa083.shtml)

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335) I would say that you are talking about "preparatory practice". My description of something other than preparatory practice: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. Note the word "necessitates". Different from what a person wants to do, or doesn't want to do--just the necessity to breathe. Gautama taught that happiness apart from equanimity ceases in the fourth concentration. Try it some time, you'll neither like nor dislike it!

https://obo.genaud.net/dhamma-vinaya/pts/sn/02_nv/sn02.12.002.rhyc.pts.htm

Happiness, to you, is the opposite of pain? Pleasant sensation and painful sensation, these are opposites to me. Happiness and sadness could be taken as opposites. I get it, you're trying to talk about how people perceive Buddhism, and the other major religions, not about the actual teachings themselves. And you're right, there a lot of people running around chasing after enlightenment. You're making the argument that the duality people expect enlightenment to overcome is inherent in existence, and no amount of the kool-aid will actually make one side of the duality disappear. Yes, ok. But the particulars interest me. Just so you know, there is a cessation of duality associated with the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing. For Gautama, concentration was "one-pointedness", and the last of the initial concentrations he described involved the freedom of "one-pointedness of mind" to shift and move in the body "with no particle (of the body) left out". In that concentration, the activity of breath is generated automatically, and volition in the action of the body has ceased. There is no actor with regard to the body, and in that sense the state is nondual. If you want to say that enlightenment is the candy in the pinata that keeps most followers of faith swinging, I think most Dao Bums would agree with you. Watching the folks with the rope raise the pinata just out of reach, amusing! Dismissing the original teachings, the ones that historians believe are the best representation of the original teachings, I think you do yourself a disservice.

How 'bout this: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. ((“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki Transcript, Sunday, February 22, 1970; San Francisco; shunryusuzuki2 dot com/detail1?ID=335); some "you know"'s removed) So when you submit, do you feel as if you are "doing something"--is it a preparatory practice for submission, or submission? Any trace of one-pointedness, when you're making surrender to the divine will the object of thought? Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) Asking that last one, for a friend...

I'm ok with that.

I was hoping you would notice that happiness and suffering are not opposites, not yin and yang, in the teachings of Gautama the Buddha. Enlightenment as Gautama described it has nothing to do with perpetual bliss. Oddly, Gautama ascribed a happiness to the attainment associated with his enlightenment, but these are two different things, the temporary attainment with its peculiar happiness and his insight into the nature of suffering. If you are wondering where is the happiness in Gautama's teaching, I laid it out for you in his words. If you are wondering, what is suffering in Gautama's teaching, I gave you a declension, and pointed out that for Gautama, suffering is "in short, the five groups of grasping". Your question about happiness and suffering I thought required a definition of terms, and not in my words.

How is it that you keep to the law, then, if not through the exercise of will?

Sounds to me like you enjoy determining your course of action, and you're thinking if you exercise your will according to law, you can bring heaven to earth. Am I close? As far as the Gautamid: And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide. (MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303) I take that to mean that he was not in a state of concentration when he spoke. So, yes, there would be determinate thought involved. But as to the truth of what was said? And the return to a cessation of "determinate thought", first in speech, then in deed, and lastly in thought, that doesn't seem like a return to the garden to you? As to my determination: well, there are a couple of things that are like gravity to me now, in my life. When the location of attention can shift anywhere in the body as a function of the movement of breath, and the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows solely from the location of attention, there is a feeling of freedom. ... automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation follows from "one-pointedness" that moves as though in open space. The effortlessness of the generation of automatic activity, even if the activity is strenuous, is a natural draw. I'm just looking for a rhythm in my life that includes these things, and has room for the inconceivable: Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. (Dogen, “Genjo Koan”, tr Kazuaki Tanahashi)

And people under hypnosis, given the suggestion. Watch out for the hypnic jerk, though...

We come full circle 'fore we go, if we're lucky five will get you ten

Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (NKJV Genesis 2:16-7) But in what sense, "die"? Whoever finds the explanation of these words will not taste death. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p. 3 log. 1, ©1959 E. J. Brill) As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized. (SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159) The relationship between "determinate thought" and action is at the core of Gautama's teaching: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294) But how can a person relinquish "determinate thought", volition, that is based on the knowledge of good and evil? "This is right, I must do this"--"this is wrong, I must not do this." (One) cultivates right concentration, which is based on detachment, on dispassion, on cessation, which ends in self-surrender, which plunges into the deathless, which has the deathless for its aim, which has the deathless for its end. (SN V 54, Pali Text Society V p 44) The difficult thing for most people is to realize that action can take place in the absence of "determinate thought", in the absence of volition. Here's an example I gave stirling over on the "Bliss and Enlightenment by James Swartz" thread: One day in 1975, i made a determination that I was going to try to be mindful of each inhalation and exhalation, no matter what I was doing. Sometime in the afternoon, I was sitting at my desk when my body got up and walked to the door of the room, but not because I exercised the will to walk to the door. Years later, at the end of a lecture at the S. F. Zen Center, Kobun Chino Otogawa admonished his audience: You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around.

I'm quoting the above, so as not to repeat your original post. Suffering is an element of the chain of dependent causation, as here: That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) At the same time, Gautama summarizes suffering as "the five groups of grasping" (after self): Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill (suffering). (AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160, parenthetical added) Pain's not really listed, but I think you could contrast happiness with suffering. To Gautama, suffering was grasping after a sense of self in connection with the body, the feelings, the mind, the habitual tendencies, or the mental state. About happiness, Gautama said: I know that while my father, the Sakyan, was ploughing, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, I entered on the first meditation, which is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful, and while abiding therein, I thought: ‘Now could this be a way to awakening?’ Then, following on my mindfulness, Aggivissana, there was the consciousness: This is itself the Way to awakening. This occurred to me, Aggivissana: ‘Now, am I afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind?’ This occurred to me…: I am not afraid of that happiness which is happiness apart from sense-pleasures, apart from unskilled states of mind.’ (MN 1 246-247, Vol I pg 301) Whatever happiness, whatever joy, Ananda, arises in consequence of these five strands of sense-pleasures, it is called happiness in sense-pleasures. Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: ‘This is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience’—this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, a [person], aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, enters and abides in the first meditation that is accompanied by initial thought and discursive thought, is born of aloofness and is rapturous and joyful. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: ‘This [the first meditative state] is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience’–this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by allaying initial and discursive thought, [their] mind inwardly tranquillised and fixed on one point, enters and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration, and is rapturous and joyful. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and joyful than that happiness. Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus… And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by the fading out of rapture, abides with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and [they] experience in [their] person that happiness of which the [noble ones] say: ‘Joyful lives [the one] who has equanimity and is mindful’. And entering on the third meditation [they] abide in it. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus… And what, Ananda is the other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by getting rid of happiness and by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of [their] former pleasures and sorrows, enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor happiness, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. “Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: ‘This [the fourth meditative state] is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience’-this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, a [person], by wholly transcending perceptions of material shapes, by the going down of perceptions due to sensory impressions, by not attending to perceptions of difference, thinking: “Ether is unending’, enters and abides in the plane of infinite ether. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. …[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of infinite ether and thinking: ‘Consciousness is unending’, enters and abides in the plane of infinite consciousness… …[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of infinite consciousness, and thinking: ‘There is no thing’. enters and abides in the plane of no-thing… …[a person]. by wholly transcending the plane of no-thing, enters and abides in the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. …[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. enters and abides in the stopping of perceiving and feeling. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness.”| … the situation occurs, Ananda, when wanderers belonging to other sects may speak thus: ‘The recluse (Gautama) speaks of the stopping of perceiving and feeling, and lays down that this belongs to happiness. Now what is this, now how is this?’ Ananda, wanderers belonging to other sects who speak thus should be spoken to thus: ‘Your reverences, (Gautama) does not lay down that it is only pleasant feeling that belongs to happiness; for, your reverences, the Tathagatha (the “Thus-Gone One”, the Buddha) lays down that whenever, wherever, whatever happiness is found it belongs to happiness. (MN I 398-400, Vol II pg 67-69) Yes, he saw you coming, 2500 years ago: "whenever, wherever, whatever happiness is found it belongs to happiness." There's a duplication of "happiness" in the description of the fourth concentration, above. He says happiness ceases, at the same time he says the fourth concentration has a happiness more excellent than the third concentration. More precisely, what ceases in the fourth concentration is happiness apart from equanimity (with respect to the multiplicity of the senses)(SN V 215, Pali Text Society V pg 189-190). The attainment of "the cessation of perceiving and feeling" is associated with Gautama's insight into dependent causation, which insight is regarded as the substance of his enlightenment. Gautama said that he attained the cessation of perceiving and feeling by "lack of desire, by means of lack of desire"--he said that's how he attained each of the states of concentration. He described that attainment: “…[an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehend thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Vol III pg 151-152) The cessation of "perceiving and feeling" is actually a cessation of "determinate thought" in perceiving and feeling (just as the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing in the fourth concentration is actually the cessation of "determinate thought" in inbreathing and outbreathing). You can read more about that here, if you like. More about happiness: “…What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for seven nights and days?” “No, your reverence.” “What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for six nights and days, for five, for four, for three, for two nights and days, for one night and day?” “No, your reverence.” “But I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for one night and day. I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for two nights and days,, for three, four, five, six, for seven nights and days.” (MN I 94, Vol I pg 123-124)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Liminal'. Some somatic background, perhaps: Moshe Feldenkrais described the reason that many people hold their breath for an instant when getting up out of a chair: The tendency to hold one’s breath is instinctive, part of an attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute. (“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 83) Holding one’s breath retains pressure in the abdomen. Medical researcher D. L. Bartilink remarked on the utility of a “tensed somatic cavity” in support of the spine: Animals undoubtedly make an extensive use of the protection of their spines by the tensed somatic cavity, and probably also use it as a support upon which muscles of posture find a hold… (“The Role of Abdominal Pressure in Relieving the Pressure on the Lumbar Intervertebral Discs”, J Bone Joint Surg Br 1957 Nov;39-B(4):718-25. doi: 10.1302/0301-620X.39B4.718. 1957) However, Bartilink noted that pressure in the abdominal cavity need not restrict the diaphragm: … Breathing can go on even when the abdomen is used as a support and cannot be relaxed. (ibid) Feldenkrais suggested a practice to overcome the tendency to hold the breath, a series of preparatory movements to be done on a chair before standing. First, he said, move the upper body forward and backward, then from side to side, and finally “in such a way that the top of the head marks a circle, the head being supported on the spine as on a rod.” According to Feldenkrais, the relaxed awareness initiated by these exercises can allow a change in the center of gravity to initiate “automatic movement” in the legs: …When the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs; this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all. (“Awareness Through Movement”, Moshe Feldenkrais, p 76, 78) Feldenkrais emphasized that in a good posture, “there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control”: …good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction. This means that in the upright position there must be no muscular effort deriving from voluntary control, regardless of whether this effort is known and deliberate or concealed from the consciousness by habit. (ibid) ... In my experience, “automatic” activity in the movement of breath can at times depend on the relaxation of particular muscle groups and the exercise of calm with regard to the stretch of particular ligaments. I believe that a pattern in the circulation of “automatic” activity can develop, especially when a bent-knee posture or carriage is maintained over a period of time. “Automatic” activity in the movement of breath also follows as one “lays hold of one-pointedness” [as a presence of mind allows the movement of breath to place and shift attention], but in order to “lay hold”, carriage of the weight of the body must fall to the ligaments and volitive activity in the body must be relinquished. Body and mind dropped off is the beginning of our effort. (Eihei Dogen, “Dogen’s Extensive Record, Eihei Koroku, #501, tr Leighton and Okumura p 448) “One-pointedness” can shift, as every particle of the body (with no part left out) comes into the placement of attention. At the moment when “one-pointedness” can shift as though in open space, volition and habit in the activity of inhalation and exhalation ceases. (A Way of Living, bracketed material added)