Mark Foote

One way that folks have described the relationship to me is to say that they have to accept that they are helpless to do right, that only by taking Jesus within and giving their action over to Jesus can right be done, in the moment. Sometimes zazen gets up and walks around, sometimes it does the thing that is right with the past, right in the present, and that will be right in the future, even though that can't be known in the moment. Or maybe Jesus does it. I guess the trick is to suspend judgement, as Jesus advised his followers to do?

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them). (“The Case of the Suffocating Woman”, posted on Slate Star Codex April 5, 2017 by Scott Alexander; http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/ commenter “liz”, April 5, 2017 at 10:41 am) In one of his letters, the twelfth-century Chinese Zen teacher Yuanwu wrote: … Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality. (“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr J.C. & Thomas Cleary, p 84) To my mind, Yuanwu is describing something similar to the Navy Seal training: the abandonment of activity in connection with the movement of breath, through continued relaxation even in the midst of suffocation panic. On the other side of that panic, an acuity of the senses necessary to the movement of breath comes forward (including the senses connected with self-location–”it is as open as empty space”), an acuity that lends weight to the stretch and activity of the body (“you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality”). (my part of the above is from my post: The Case of the Suffocating Woman)

One Nan-yueh went to Ta-chi and said: "Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation?" Chiang-hsi said, "I'm figuring to make a Buddha." At this point, Nan-yueh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone. At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?" Nan-yueh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror." Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?" Nan-yueh repllied, "how can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?" Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?" Nan-yueh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?" Ta-chi did not reply. (excerpt "Lancet of Seated Meditation", Dogen's Shobogenzo; tr Carl Bielefeldt "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation" ed 1 p 191) Now we have yet another solution: get the ox to go backwards! Whatever is Nan-yueh talking about! In my unpopular opinion: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) I encourage myself to exercise presence of mind with the location of attention, and to allow the location of attention to generate automatic activity in the body in inhalation and exhalation, even as attention moves. That, rather than to exercise volition in the activity of the body (beating the cart). One time Huike climbed up Few Houses Peak with Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma asked, "Where are we going?" Hike said, "Please go right ahead--that's it." Bodhidharma said, "If you go right ahead, you cannot move a step." ("Transmission of Light (Denkoroku)", tr Cleary, Shambala p 111

Gautama taught three principal cessations: the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) speech, deed, and thought. And now the unpopular opinion: what folks regard as an "enlightened" teacher in the world today, is a person who has acquired the ability to relinquish volition in the activity of inhalation and exhalation as a part of a rhythm of mindfulness in daily living. That was Gautama's way of living, before and after his enlightenment, but the cessation of volition in inhalation and exhalation (cessation in action of the body) is different from the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving (action of the mind). The latter attainment is the attainment associated with Gautama's insight into dependent causation (his enlightenment). To say that enlightenment is a burden is to call the spirit of Brahma Sahampati down upon oneself (he's the one who persuaded Gautama to teach, in spite of knowing what a pain in the ass that would be). It's not so much that the opinion is unpopular, as it is that Brahma Sahampati has incredible bad breath, having been dead for so long...

That's gotta be the most unpopular opinion on this thread, no one responded to it (not even me!).

The right crus is stronger, broader and longer than the left, and originates from the anterolateal surface of the first three lumbar vertebral bodies and intervertebral discs (IVDs). The left crus arises from similar surfaces of the upper two lumbar vertebrae and the intervening IVD. Just an unpopular opinion, of course.

takes a lot of work sweat running down the low spine left-handed presence left-handed presence gotta hold it together gotta fall apart

70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, City Center transcript entered onto disk by Jose Escobar, 1997. Checked against tape and made verbatim by Dana Velden and Bill Redican (2/15/01) https://suzukiroshi.engagewisdom.com/talks/background-shikantaza "First stage, where he has still... thinking mind-- pure thinking mind (without idea of self)"? Now I, Aggivessana, am aware that when I am teaching dhamma to companies consisting of many hundreds, each person thinks thus about me: "The recluse Gautama is teaching dhamma especially for me." But this, Aggivessana, should not be understood thus. For when a Tathagatha is teaching dhamma to others it is for the sake of general instruction. And I, Aggivessana, at the close of such a talk, steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide. (MN I 249, Pali Text Society vol I p 303) Why would he need to concentrate his mind subjectively in "that first characteristic of concentration" if he were already in a state of concentration? Suzuki said: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know-- you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation-- preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza, link as previous) My attitude toward "preparatory practice"--it's all letting go of doing, and letting go of doing begins with one-pointedness of mind, which is an involuntary thing: I have described the experience of “one-pointedness of mind” as the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath. I would contend that the necessity of breath utilizes the placement of attention to coordinate activity all the time, but consciousness of the placement enables the experience of a singularity in the location of attention from moment to moment: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Mindfulness of Death) Suzuki mentioned only the first, second and third jhanas in his description of "preparatory zazen" (in the question and answer of the transcript cited above): Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages. (70-02-22: The Background of Shikantaza) There are stages in letting go, that I think can be observed, along the lines that Gautama described. I would say that the first jhana, where thought continues to be applied and sustained, is one of those stages. Interesting that Suzuki did not mention the fourth jhana, where "pureness of mind" finally emerges: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93) The “pureness of mind” I believe refers to the absence of any intention to act, not to the absence of thought. I would say that suffusing the body with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” is widening awareness so that there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot become the location where attention is placed. When there is “not one particle of the body" that cannot become the location where attention is placed, then I feel to be just sitting.

Working to re-aquire those callouses now, manitou!

Meanwhile, down at the bottom of the page, Suzuki entertains questions. That's pretty amazing, isn't it? ... in one-week sesshin, maybe you have some practice to prepare for good shikantaza. Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they (Theravadans) practice some special practice. Those practice(s are) not the practice(s) of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages. But if you have complete understanding of zazen, konpunjo ("to enter") can be pure practice. The mindfulness in the four applications of mindfulness Gautama described was to be accompanied by "making self surrender the object of thought" and laying hold of "one-pointedness of mind". Konpunjo? The konpunjo of pure practice? “It is too much to know the relationship, but let me be like this”: that is why we stretch our neck, you know, as if your head is going upwards [laughs] to the heaven. And your back should be straight, as if your back is deeply rooted to the center of the earth. Shhww. [Laughs.] That kind of feeling should be in our shikantaza. That kind of feeling is not the feeling, you know, when we intensify our practice, but, you know, some spirit-- spiritual feeling. Even though we don't understand why particular effort in posture is related to zazen or shikantaza, we still must have faith and "be like this". I think I have a pretty good idea of why particular effort in posture is necessary, but there's still a leap to the experience of the placement of attention by the movement of breath and the effortless coordination of the activity of inhalation and exhalation in the "consciousness-informed" body. Equally necessary: When it is supported by invisible relationship, then this is completely supported. The feeling of things outside and of people on the other side of the wall sitting with me is a feeling of their direct participation in the activity of the body through their participation in the placement of attention by the movement of breath. It's invisible, but supportive, provided I extend the mind of friendship or compassion to things and people outside. From the lecture on "Breathing", as before: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read what Suzuki is saying.

Missing your insight, C T--do share. I find the continuation interesting: Then (one) is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then (one) is fully aware: In body contemplating body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease. The undirected mind lands in body contemplating body. Almost as interesting as the notion that relaxation of the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation comes before the calming of the "mental factors", which calming I take to be a necessity in "straightening the chest and sitting precariously", as the Chinese classics prescribe.

back to discipline discipline and miracles an everyday need

Where there have been deeds, Ananda, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the deeds. Where there has been speech–where there has been thought, personal weal and woe arise in consequence of the will there was in the speech–in the thought. Either we of ourselves, Ananda, plan those planned deeds conditioned by ignorance, whence so caused arises personal weal and woe, or others plan those planned deeds that we do conditioned on ignorance, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Either they are done deliberately, or we do them unwittingly. Thence both ways arises personal weal and woe. So also is it where there has been speech, where there has been thought. Either we plan, speaking, thinking deliberately, or others plan, so that we speak, think unwittingly. Thence arises personal weal and woe. In these six cases ignorance is followed after. But from the utter fading away and cessation of ignorance, Ananda, those deeds are not, whence so conditioned arises personal weal and woe. Neither is that speech, nor that thought. As field they are not; as base they are not; as wherewithal they are not; as occasion they are not, that so conditioned there might arise personal weal and woe. (SN II text ii, 36, Pali Text Society SN Vol II p. 31-32) That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) The common thread above is intention, "determinate thought" in action. …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294) And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.” (SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV pg 85) And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities. (SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4) …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146) The ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing is the ceasing of the activities of deed, the ceasing of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving is the ceasing of the activities of mind. All that's required for mastery is the ceasing of the activities of deed, not the ceasing of the activities of mind--at least, that's what I see when I look around. Gautama, however, attained the cessation of feeling and perceiving, and his insight regarding the conditional genesis of suffering came out of that attainment. He was also one of the most remarkable ascetics of his age, before he turned to meditation, and studied under two of the foremost masters of concentration of his day and succeeded in mastering their teaching, before he surpassed them. One day my zazen got up and walked around, without any exercise of "determinate thought". I was a long way from regular "one-pointedness of mind" in my practice, a long way from the regular cessation of ("determinate thought" in) in-breathing and out-breathing in my practice. That's coming around now when I sit, but the experience is only occasional in my daily living. After zazen walked around, I tried to get zazen to act in every situation, mostly without success. Along the way I discovered that in some instances, I could disconnect from intention and realize action, but that my action actually followed from my most heart-felt belief, rather than from what Dogen termed "the inconceivable" ("Genjo Koan", "although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent"). Therein lies at least a partial answer to your question, I think. It's quite possible to be a modern master of concentration, to be practiced at "making self-surrender the object of thought" and "laying hold of one-pointedness of mind", without having experienced the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving, without having an extreme background in asceticism (making self-denial almost to the point of the abandonment of life itself familiar). And heart-felt belief can emerge as action in such a one, action that takes place without the overt exercise of volition--witness Kyozan Joshu Sasaki at Bald Mountain, pleading "ishinashini" as the source of his groping (“my hand just moves. It’s will-less"). I don't expect to attain the cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving, nor to attempt to sustain life on a piece of dung the size of a pea every two weeks. I try to be careful and diligent with regard to my beliefs, but I'm also the creature of my age and my society in that regard, to some extent.

If something is going on in your mind at the moment, being conscious means you’re aware that you’re thinking. (ibid) That's not my experience of thinking. Yes, at times I'm aware that I'm thinking, but more often I am totally absorbed in the thoughts. Being unconscious means you’re lost in thought, in the pictures and stories your mind is producing. You have entered the made-up content of your mind and are occupying it as if it were reality itself. (ibid) That's not being unconscious, to me. I am concentrated in my thoughts, and that feels like a natural occurrence to me, an experience to be accepted rather than denied. Here's an approach Gautama offered to setting up mindfulness of the four applications, including mindfulness of mind, that I think is more likely to bear fruit if cultivated and developed than attempting to always be conscious of thinking: As (one) abides in body contemplating body, either some bodily object arises, or bodily discomfort or drowsiness of mind scatters (one’s) thoughts abroad to externals. Thereupon… (one’s) attention should be directed to some pleasurable object of thought. As (one) thus directs it to some pleasurable object of thought, delight springs up in (one’s being). In (one), thus delighted, arises zest. Full of zest (one’s) body is calmed down. With body so calmed (one) experiences ease. The mind of one at ease is concentrated. (One) thus reflects: The aim on which I set my mind I have attained. Come, let me withdraw my mind [from pleasurable object of thought]. So (one) withdraws (one’s) mind therefrom, and neither starts nor carries on thought-process. Thus (one) is fully conscious: I am without thought initial or sustained. I am inwardly mindful. I am at ease. (Gautama repeats the above for “As (one) contemplates feelings in feelings…”, “… mind in mind…”, “… mind-states in mind-states, either some mental object arises, or…”) Such is the practice for the direction of mind. And what… is the practice for the non-direction of mind? (First,) by not directing (one’s) mind to externals, (one) is fully aware: My mind is not directed to externals. Then (one) is fully aware: My mind is not concentrated either on what is before or on what is behind, but it is set free, it is undirected. Then (one) is fully aware: In body contemplating body I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease. And (one) does the same with regard to feelings… to mind… and mind-states. Thus (one) is fully aware: In mind-states contemplating mind-states I abide, ardent, composed and mindful. I am at ease. This is the practice for the non-direction of mind. (SN V 154-157, Pali Text Society SN V pg 135-136)

No, are you kidding--not there! Full video, from which I made the clip above. Me:

is unknowable, Grover--what is in cookie me want anyway

with the universe, no telling. One way one day another the next

I'm ok with that!

Last paragraph in the Suzuki lecture titled "Breathing", which I linked above: Always moment after moment we are the center of myriads of worlds. So we are quite dependent and independent. So, if you understand, or if you experience this kind of experience, you have absolute independence. You will not be bothered by anyone. So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. The first part of the diss makes out that Ingram is amplifying a number of heresies contained in modern Theravadan schools, particularly in teachings from Myanmar, if I understand correctly. They chant about metta at the Theravadan monastery over the hillls from me, in Redwood Valley. More of a song, actually. I think that practice is about 200 years old, but they let everyone believe it was from the Buddha's time. Yes, it's a hit, and they depend on donations! Stirling, don't make me repeat Harada Roshi's admonition to Jiryu. I know you think it's a wide-open awareness, like Jiryu, but I come down on the side of Harada. Except that I would say: “One-pointedness” can shift, as every particle of the body (with no part left out) comes into the placement of attention. At the moment when “one-pointedness” can shift as though in open space, volition and habit in the activity of inhalation and exhalation ceases.

"He can't really tell them why the concentration is his way of living, so he's heaping on the praise." Maybe I can say, though. How presumptious of me, I know. One-pointedness of mind is the placement of awareness as a function of breath. We sit, and sooner or later we catch a glimpse. We lay hold. We get on board, and take up the flute! Is there another way in? You're a lucky guy, I guess. More directly, we think, and then we speak, for the most part. The point of those quotes, which so far as I know only appear in those particular places in the first four Nikayas, is that when Gautama speaks of action, and the cessation of action, he is speaking of volitive action, and the cessation of volitive action. Without those particular bits of the teaching, what sense can be made of "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing", or "the cessation of feeling and perceiving"? The second quote is very much about attainment, though not the stream-winner kind of attainment: …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146) I know this is important to you. I'm drawing a blank. Why can't I cheat! You know, for me it's all about action, volitive versus free. Does practice occur, actualizing the fundamental point? Is it the self that finds the place where I am, or is that the grace of just letting go? Is it the self that finds my way at this moment, or just a sudden necessity to open to the universe beyond the boundaries of the senses? Is it the self that makes self-surrender the object of thought, that takes up "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" and the placement of attention by the movement of breath? Is it no-self, when the inconceivable is actualized immediately? I kinda think so, I confess. So a matter of action, not insight. It isn't though. This is not at all the same thing. Can't tell exactly what you thought was not the same thing. I've noticed that the Pali Text Society translations are only available in zipped PDF's, here. That's open license, so I'm allowed to post the link here! Anyway, the fact that a google search won't bring up the Pali text translation means that a lot of my references aren't online--there are other translations, but those translators seem to have taken a hit and miss approach to the sermons. Some are translated, many are not. Can't blame them. I myself have a set of the first four Nikayas on the bookshelf, from the Pali Text Society, that I purchased back in the '80's. I don't trust Visuddimaggha at all, I'm afraid. The diss of Ingram is interesting, for the disparaging remarks concerning the practices that have been adopted by modern insight meditation in Southeast Asia, and passed off as historical. I think it's the same with the Visuddhimaggha, written a thousand years after Gautama (the Ingram diss took a turn and lost me, though, when the author started into "dark night of meditation"). Chadwick always says my viewpoint is somewhat unique. I wish someone had been able to make sense of the bits and pieces for me sooner, like around junior high. You're conflating dropping mind and body with enlightenment. Dogen said it was the start of our effort, and I would say that's what allows the breath to place attention.

Breathing Shunryu Suzuki Transcript Thursday Morning Lectures November 4, 1965 Los Altos http://shunryusuzuki2.com/Detail1?ID=77 I'll be back to you on the rest, later. An apparent take-down of Daniel, which I haven't finished reading, here. Daniel's response, which I haven't had time to listen to, here.

na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na---Atman!

How odd, that Gautama would have to appeal to his followers to cultivate "the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", the way he himself did: ... this intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. Moreover it allays evil, unprofitable states that have arisen, and makes them vanish in a moment. Just as... in the last month of the hot season the dust and dirt fly up, and then out of due season a great rain cloud lays them and makes them vanish in a moment,--even so intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. Moreover it allays evil, unprofitable states that have arisen, and makes them vanish in a moment. (SN V "The Great Chapter", Book X, Chapter I, 310; Pali Text Society SN V p 275; the full "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", here) He tells folks that such was his way of living as the Bodhisattva (ibid p 280), and that such is the Tathagatha's way of living (ibid p 289). He's laying it on thick. He can't really tell them why the concentration is his way of living, so he's heaping on the praise. In Anapanasati, he says that the same concentration (now translated "the [mind-]development that is mindfulness on inbreathing and outbreathing"), if developed and made much of, leads to the fulfillment of the four applications of mindfulness, which if developed and made much of, brings to fulfilment the seven links in awakening, which if developed and made much of brings to fulfillment freedom through knowledge. So, just develop and make much of the concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, and the rest will follow. Gautama described "the power of concentration" as: making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein... (continues with the second, third, and fourth trances). This... is called "the controlling power of concentration". (SN v 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174, emphasis added) Without "one-pointedness", thought may be applied and sustained but there's no concentration. Just for Daniel and stirling, Gautama said: Moreover, ... for those ... who are Arahants, in whom the asavas (the cankers of sense pleasures, becoming, and ignorance) are destroyed, who have lived the life, done the task, lifted the burden, won their highest good, worn out the fetters of becoming, who by perfect knowledge have become free,--for such also the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, if cultivated and made much of, conduces both to pleasant living and to mindful composure even in this very life. (ibid p 290, parenthetical added) Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks. Or repeat myself: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294) …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146) Why would he say that the cessation of "determinate thought" in speech requires the first concentration, if speaking was non-volitional in an Arahant? "Self", taking myself too seriously. "No-self", life is too important to take seriously. I see you answered the questions, for yourself: The full quote, from Suzuki: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. (“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added) Like Gautama, he's linking "concentrated in your breathing" with freedom, and like Gautama allowing for the use of the mind in a particular way. Karma to me is the result of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, and mind--intentional action, and the result is ultimately a grasping after self in the five groups. How to cease to act out of intention, yet act, in this world--that is the question Gautama addressed. Congratulations! I knew from previous threads you had been authorized to teach, but by two teachers--well, alright then! You're sure it was based on understanding and insight... just kidding you, stirling. My hat is off. I think I've checked his stuff before, but I'll take a look. As you can tell, I derail from other people's tracks altogether quickly, if I sense the tracks are going somewhere I can't use. A reflex developed in the information age, as I scramble to find what I can use while I can still use it. Sometimes too quick of a reflex, admittedly. I am content to follow Gautama's advice, and I have the gist of his "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing", enough to see its utility--"how I can use my mind", to paraphrase Suzuki. I'm not worried about arahantship. Body and mind dropped off is the beginning of our effort. (Eihei Dogen, “Dogen’s Extensive Record, Eihei Koroku, #501, tr Leighton and Okumura p 448) That translation is approved by Sotoshu, for what that's worth. I personally don't believe there's such a thing as "dropping body and mind" permanently, until the mortal coil itself is shuffled off. As I said before, to me Dogen is simply saying, "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind."