Mark Foote

Response from Karan, to the thread here: Interesting comments. Apech is right, of course, that the term "Hinduism" is a recent British-era invention ("Hind" is 'India' in Persian) so maybe it would have been better to say there was interchange of ideas between the Tibetan dharmas and the Shakta, Shaiva, Kaula dharmas extant in that time and place. That there was such interchange is corroborated by scholars like Alexis Sanderson. Also, something interesting about the word "tantra" — it can also be seen as derived from tanu + tra (the body method), as opposed to "mantra" (mana + tra — the mind method). That's just a linguistic aside of course; it doesn't prove anything about which practices fall under which rubric. I only mention it because this doesn't show up in English translations, though it's kind of obvious for speakers of most Indian languages.

Neil gets a little carried away, there, at the end: "To put this in modern terms, if we develop our thinking skills, if we guard against lies and self-deception, if we train and master our emotions, we will, over the years, make better and better choices, do more and more meaningful things, and derive ever-increasing satisfaction from all that we have become and all that we have achieved, and are yet able to achieve." I would rather sit down and let my breath place attention, until my attention moves freely and the activity of breath arises solely from the location of my attention. I find that fulfilling, somehow, and the efforts that Neil listed have become mostly a sideshow, to me.

Olaf Blanke would say, inside, unless the innate coordination of the senses of equalibrioception, graviception, proprioception, and occuloception has been damaged. Look at that, he's been researching the relationship between sense of self and breathing: https://hal.science/hal-03583057/document I was just posting, in response to Apech, that at some point what lies beyond the boundaries of the senses must be incorporated into the location of one-pointedness, in order for the experience of one-pointedness to continue. It was a thing I loved about the soft-slam dancing at Mabuhay Gardens, back when--bodies flying everywhere, nobody getting hurt but entirely necessary to incorporate what lies beyond the immediate senses into the point of awareness, the point of awareness that moves the body without thought. Not outside, but responsive to the unseen, by inclusion.

Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/) That's from a lecture koun Franz gave. I think it's an excellent description of "one-pointedness of mind", but so also is your description, Apech: "... wholeness or unity in awareness, such that whatever seems to arise or not arise the awareness remains constant..." A distinction, perhaps: Franz is pointing to a singularity of mind, to a mind that can move around in the body without losing singularity. A friend of mine rejects outright that the "... wholeness or unity in awareness, such that whatever seems to arise or not arise the awareness remains constant..." could have location. In my experience, it's possible for a sense of the location of awareness to make activity in the movement of breath automatic, provided that the location of awareness can move freely. However, attention directed to the movement of breath, rather than to the location of awareness in the movement of breath, can sometimes interfere: You must strive with all your energy to bite through here and cut off conditioned habits of mind. Be like a person who has died the great death: after your breath is cut off, then you come back to life. Only then do you realize that it is as open as empty space. Only then do you reach the point where your feet are walking on the ground of reality. (“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, translated by J.C. and Thomas Cleary, p 83-84) Gautama said that the "excellence of the heart's release" through the extension of compassion, sympathy, and equanimity throughout the four quarters of the world constituted the first, second and third of the further states. At some point, the inclusion of what lies beyond the boundaries of the senses is necessary to one-pointedness of mind. A naked awareness must at some moment incorporate contact in the senses, and contact with what lies behind the boundaries of the senses as well. That this can happen in stages, I think is the source of the confusion--because, of course, it can also happen all at once, right now. The teaching of stages is always going to be tricky ("by lack of desire, by means of lack of desire", the concentrations characterized by "one-pointedness of mind" are attained, per Gautama).

I, Ananda, do not behold one material shape wherein is delight, wherein is content, but that from its changing and becoming otherwise there will not arise grief, suffering, lamentation, and despair. But this abiding, Ananda, has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata [literally, “one who has gone beyond”], that is to say, by not attending to any signs, the entering on and abiding in an inward emptiness... Wherefore, Ananda, if [one] should desire: ‘Entering on an inward emptiness, may I dwell therein’, that [person], Ananda, should steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward. And how, Ananda. does [one] steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward? As to this, Ananda, [the person], aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, entering on it abides in the first [initial] meditation... the second ... the third... the fourth meditation. Even so, Ananda, does [one] steady, calm, make one pointed, and concentrate [the] mind precisely on what is inward.” (MN III 111-112, Vol III pg 154-156) Making self surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind. (SN V 200, Pali Text Society V 176) Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/) Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [Gautama]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states]. (MN III 42-45, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 92-94)

eudemonia ( eudaemonia ) n. happiness considered as a criterion for what is moral and as a motivation for human action. eudemonia - APA Dictionary of Psychology “What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for six nights and days, for five, for four, for three, for two nights and days, for one night and day?” “No, your reverence.” “But I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for one night and day. I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for two nights and days,, for three, four, five, six, for seven nights and days.” (MN I 94, Vol I pg 123-124)

Hey, silent--I know, everybody's got their favorite remedy, but I came across this the other day: Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences Reversing Bacteria-induced Vitamin D Receptor Dysfunction Is Key to Autoimmune Disease Evidence has been accumulating that indicates that a number of autoimmune diseases can be reversed by gradually restoring VDR function with the VDR agonist olmesartan and subinhibitory dosages of certain bacteriostatic antibiotics. Diseases showing favorable responses to treatment so far include systemic lupus erythematosis, rheumatoid arthritis, scleroderma, sarcoidosis, Sjogren's syndrome, autoimmune thyroid disease, psoriasis, ankylosing spondylitis, Reiter's syndrome, type I and II diabetes mellitus, and uveitis. https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2009.04637.x Also, I discover that folks have been working with this, and there's something called the "Marshall Protocol" for attempting treatment. No idea if what he's suffering from is an autoimmune thing, but it sounds like it. Don't know anybody who has tried the "Marshall Protocol", and there don't appear to be any studies confirming effectiveness either. I discovered it while researching olmesartan. They have a Facebook group, for folks to discuss, but you have to join the group to see the discussion (https://m.facebook.com/groups/10625532483/).

I would contend that "awareness naked" (as in "search out your mind and leave your awareness naked") is "one-pointedness of mind". Pitch Instructions to Mahamudra By Sri Tilopa to Naropa at the Banks of the River Ganges 1 Homage to the glorious Co-emergence! 2 Mahamudra cannot be shown; but for you who are devoted to the guru, who have undertaken hardships and are forbearing in suffering, intelligent Naropa, the fortunate one, take this to your heart. 3 Kye-ho! Look carefully at worldly phenomena, unable to last like an illusion or dream. Illusions and dreams do not truly exist. Therefore, develop sadness and relinquish worldly activities. Renounce all retinues and relations, the objects of passion and aggression, and meditate alone in forests, mountains and solitary places. 4 Remain in the state of non-meditation. Mahamudra (Great Seal) is attained when non-attainment is attained. The dharma of samsara is futile, the cause of suffering. The dharma of action has no substance; so, look at the substance of the ultimate. 5 The dharma of intellect cannot fathom the truth beyond intellect. The dharma of action cannot discover the truth of non-action. Should you wish to attain the truth beyond intellect, the truth of non-action, search out your mind and leave your awareness naked. 6 Allow the polluted water of thoughts to clear. Do not negate or affirm projections, but leave them as they are. If there is no rejecting or accepting, then you are liberated into mahamudra. 7 For example, a tree grows leaves and branches. Severing its root withers the hundreds of thousands of leaves and branches (https://www.scribd.com/document/46187100/Instructions-to-Mahamudra#)

From my most recent post, on my site: In my experience, the “placement of attention” by the movement of breath only occurs freely in what Gautama described as “the fourth musing”: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93) The “pureness of mind” refers to the absence of any intention to act. Suffusing the body with “purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” is widening awareness so that there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot become the location where attention is placed [by the movement of breath, without intention]. Tsoknyi Rinpoche spoke about "the clarity aspect of mind in harmony with the subtle body". Is that not "purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind"? Essence love is the pure feeling within and behind all conditional feelings. Once we connect again and again with this essence love, having cultivated a nonjudgmental mind, our dharma practice can be authentic and life changing. (Tsoknyi Rinpoche) More straightforward, for me: ... in order to “lay hold” [of one-pointed awareness], carriage of the weight of the body must fall to the ligaments and volitive activity in the body must be relinquished. Body and mind dropped off is the beginning of our effort. (Eihei Dogen, “Dogen’s Extensive Record, Eihei Koroku, #501, tr Leighton and Okumura p 448) “One-pointedness” can shift, as every particle of the body (with no part left out) comes into the placement of attention. At the moment when “one-pointedness” can shift as though in open space, volition and habit in the activity of inhalation and exhalation ceases. [Automatic activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation takes place; the effortlessness of the generation of automatic activity in such a moment, even if the activity is strenuous, is a natural draw.] (A Way of Living)

I'd like to thank the folks contributing to this thread, for responses that certainly have significance to me. I know Karan was occupied with work, there on the west coast of India, last week--I sent him a link, and I'm sure he'll send me a response, probably no later than next weekend. So please check back! Meanwhile, I can mention a teaching I attended about a decade ago, at a Shambala sitting/lecture. The Shambala organization has a local hall in the town of Sonoma, in Northern California, and one day they had a Tibetan lama as a speaker. I can't recall the teacher's name, and he was not dressed in the red monks robes that so many Tibetan Buddhists wear. He sat with one knee on the floor, and the foot of the opposite leg in front of that shin, with the knee up, for about 50 minutes, I think (taylor pose). I believe someone translated for him. The thing that I remember from the lecture was his description of the memorization of a mandala. He said that when he was training, he had a picture of a mandala on a card, and he was told to look at it and memorize it, until he could reconstruct it in his mind, when he flipped the card over (to the blank side). A curious training! I myself have an image of my body, that I call to mind when I sit. The most important bits are: Gracovetsky, Farfan and Lamay speculated that in lifting weight, the abdominal muscles work against the extensors to align the vertebrae of the lower spine. They demonstrated through mathematical models that given an appropriate alignment of the spine, displacement of the lumbodorsal fascial sheet from its normal position by even a small fraction of an inch can provide critical support to the structure of the spine. Whether that displacement was to the rear, effected by hydraulic pressure created by the abdominals, or forward, as a consequence of action of the sacrospinalis muscles, the models were not sufficient to determine. The authors noted, however, that displacement to the rear by pressure created by the abdominals would at least in part explain the heightened activity of the abdominals in weight-lifting (Gracovetsky, S., Farfan HF, Lamay C, 1997. A mathematical model of the lumbar spine using an optimal system to control muscles and ligaments. Orthopedic Clinics of North America 8: 135-153). The study presupposed a flattening of the lumbar curve, like that of a person bent over to lift weight from the floor, but acknowledged that the control of the ligament system afforded by activity between the abdominals and extensors could not be directly accounted for in the models. My assumption is that a bent-knee posture like the lotus can engage the mechanism of fascial support the authors described, through alignment of the vertebrae of the spine. Stretch in the ilio-tibial bands sets off reciprocal innervation of the left and right sartorious muscles, and consequently reciprocal activity in the tensor and gluteous muscles. The result can be a stretch in the fascia sheet behind the sacrum (and the lower spine). The activity of the extensor muscles behind the sacrum might also bear on the displacement of fascia. Dr. H. F. Farfan wrote: There is another peculiarity of the erector muscles of the spine. Below the level of the fifth lumbar vertebra, the muscle contracts in a compartment enclosed by bone anteriorly, laterally, and medially. Posteriorly, the compartment is closed by the lumbodorsal fascia. When contracted, the diameter of the muscle mass tends to increase. This change in shape of the muscle may exert a wedging effect between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia, thereby increasing the tension in the fascia. This may be one of the few instances where a muscle can exert force by pushing. (“Mechanical Disorders of the Low Back”, H. F. Farfan, p 183) Farfan doesn’t address whether or not the “wedging effect” between the sacrum and the lumbodorsal fascia might contribute to the displacement of the lumbodorsal fascia behind the lower spine, nor does he discuss how the rotation of the tailbone and sacrum might affect the location of the tension produced by the “wedging effect” of the extensor muscles. Karan sent a picture that I believe illustrates the feeling and effect of some of these mechanics, and particularly of "one-pointedness of mind" in the lower abdomen (the bowl with concentric circles)--he didn't say where he got it (the links aren't active):

I'm guessing that's true for the majority of the 'Bums. Zen teacher Kobun Chino Otogawa once said, "take your time with the lotus." By that, I assume he meant that the lotus has a lot to teach. I keep a return to the lotus in mind, but I sit a sloppy half-lotus or burmese, these days. Dennis Merzel, a Zen teacher associated with the L.A. Zen Center, said he started out sitting half-lotus, then spent a couple of decades sitting lotus, and now has spent years sitting Burmese. I also don't sit 40 minutes any more, my knees are happier with 25. I do switch off left leg on top and right leg on top. The L.A. Zen Center, where Merzel was, does 35 minutes in sesshins (or did, last I checked). I myself have tried to find some Western kinesthetics that might guide my practice. I also read the first four sermon collections (Nikayas) of the Pali Canon, and there's a thread through those sermons that is downright secular and compelling, when it comes to practice. I think I got something out of the presence of a lot of teachers, but a practice that can more or less be repeated to find peace in the world, that for me is complicated and simple in equal measures. Kobun said, "no one masters zazen." He also said that he came to the USA, not because of what he had to offer Westerners, but because something was going on here that he thought he could learn from.

Seriously, though. Are there stars in the sky that guide the seafarer? Granted, when the mariners of the South Sea islands are asked how they navigate to islands over the horizon on a cloudy night, their replies mostly make no sense to Westerners. Are there no words for some intuitions, or do their words actually make sense in some other, non-Western context? If there are gradations of concentration, as Gautama insisted there were, and even the brightest of India in the time of Gautama had failed to arrive at the concentration he attained, then how are the conceptual frameworks in the millenias that followed to be trusted? Yuanwu spent time and energy to assemble "The Blue Cliff Record". Nonetheless, his disciple attempted to destroy all copies of it, as well as the printing plates. The disciple apparently put his faith in an intuitive transmission set up by the physical presence of a teacher, even if the critical experience did not occur in the teacher's presence. I think Yuanwu demonstrated more faith than his disciple. What hope is there for humanity, if the means to a saner civilization depends solely on person-to-person transmission?

Concepts, by illustration, are what, then? The father of a friend once said, "I was always afraid that if I ever got my (stuff) together, it would be tougher than I am."

Ka-choo! As opposed to: Palahiko Mana, Water-Drinking Maiden, Hopi 1899. She wears a headdress with stepped Earth signs and corn ears. Water Drinking Woman seems to be a name for the corn itself, one of many forms of the Corn Maidens. (Wikipedia, "kachina")

try walking the dog mash potatoes, do the twist Good God, get it hot

Brings to mind pictures of a blue god with flower leis, riding a cow. Here's a disturbing image: In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152) Six sensory fields, so the mind is a sensory field that is present when "brought to a close [is] the (holy)-faring", according to Gautama the Shakyan. Now what is it that the mind senses? Don't seem to be answers to the questions in the back of the textbook... Changing channels:

the games people play just to pass the time of day weed patch, flowering

too, too furious the pace of modern living windy at the lake

Clarification from Karan: I read C T's comment about Vipassana (and Shamatha) being an essential part of all Buddhist schools including Vajrayana, and of course I agree that that is the case. Perhaps I should have chosen my words better. What I meant was that I will be going back to cultivating Shamatha with the breath as object and will incorporate Vipassana as it was discussed in the Early Buddhist texts. What I won't be doing for a while is the deity visualisation, the Bodhisattva aspirations and the practices derived from Yoga that are distinguishing features of Vajrayana practice. My response to Karan, revealing my full ignorance of Vajrayana (no doubt): It's only recently that I’ve become aware how much of the Tibetan tradition was drawn from particular teachers in 10th-11th century northern India, principally Naropa and Tilopa. They had, I believe, a six-yoga practice, very different from early Buddhism. More from Wikipedia, under Naropa: The six dharmas are a collection of tantric Buddhist completion stage practices drawn from the Buddhist tantras. They are intended to lead to Buddhahood in an accelerated manner. They traditionally require tantric initiation and personal instruction through working with a tantric guru as well as various preliminary practices. The six dharmas work with the subtle body, particularly through the generation of inner heat (tummo) energy. The six dharmas are a main practice of the Kagyu school (and was originally unique to that school) and key Kagyu figures such as Milarepa, Gampopa, Phagmo Drugpa and Jigten Sumgon taught and practiced these dharmas. They are also taught in Gelug, where they were introduced by Je Tsongkhapa, who received the lineage through his Kagyu teachers. I’m thinking the generation of inner heat has to do with the ligaments of the sacrum, but I can’t practice it, I’m totally guessing. Working those ligaments is important in Tibetan Buddhism, I know that—one of their practices is hopping in the lotus posture, I’ve seen videos of modern practitioners with lots of gymnastics matts doing this. To do that, a person has to have muscles that work in conjunction with the ligaments of the sacrum to achieve stretch, strength, and balance. At least, that’s the way I see it. The ligments of the sacrum are important in my sitting too, these days, but I come back to the advice of Hida Hiramitsu, as I wrote in my latest post: We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body. (Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added) Keeping the effort with the sense of gravity, and shifting the center of gravity, has been really helpful to me, provided I can relax the muscles of the lower abdomen and pelvis and keep the tailbone involved. In the end, I come back to that peculiar coupling of “one-pointedness” of attention and a center of gravity that shifts. I’m sure that’s why Ch’an and Zen put the emphasis on person-to-person transmission, because it’s as much a physical experience as a mental one and yet we are all caught up in our minds.

"dontknwmucboutanythng" has a new thread with a link to an article entitled “Like a Vibration Cascading through the Body”: Energy-Like Somatic Experiences Reported by Western Buddhist Meditators. The abstract of the article begins: There are numerous historical and textual references to energy-like somatic experiences (ELSEs) from religious traditions, and even a few psychological studies that have documented related phenomena. However, ELSEs remain an understudied effect of meditation in contemporary research. Based upon narratives from a large qualitative sample of Buddhist meditators in the West reporting meditation-related challenges, this paper offers a unique glimpse into how ELSEs play out in the lives of contemporary meditation practitioners and meditation experts. The study was actually an analysis of data from another study: The Varieties of Contemplative Experience (VCE) is a mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges, as reported by Buddhist meditation practitioners (n = 60) and meditation experts (n = 32) in the West (Lindahl et al. 2017). Through purposive sampling, male (57%) and female practitioners, equally distributed among Theravāda, Zen, and Tibetan Buddhist lineages, were recruited to describe their meditation-related challenges, what they think caused them, how they and others interpreted them, and what remedies or responses were helpful or unhelpful for navigating them. Experts (meditation teachers and clinicians) were asked to describe meditation-related challenges they had witnessed in their students or clients, how they interpreted them, and what remedies or responses they suggested. The attempt at objectivity in the article is a breath of fresh air to me, but the study was very small (60 practitioners, 32 teacher-practitioners). Also, the numbers here seem relatively high to me, although I've never asked a room full of retreat participants how many had such a history: A minority of meditation practitioners in the study reported a prior psychiatric history (32%) or a history of trauma (43%). ... ELSEs were the most commonly reported experience in the somatic domain, with 62% (42/68) of practitioners voluntarily describing them. Nearly half of the experts (16/33, 48%) interviewed also mentioned working with meditators reporting ELSEs. However, as with most other types of experiences documented in the VCE study, not everyone who reported an ELSE found it distressing or impairing, as some practitioners qualified for participation in the study on account of challenges in other domains. Here's the part I thought might be relevant to "Emotions as the Path": ELSEs (“energy-like somatic experiences”) have also been documented outside of the context of religious and contemplative systems and without the assumption that they are indicative of a kundalini awakening. Multiple ELSEs are part of a standardized taxonomy of experiences in schizophrenia spectrum disorders under the heading of “cenesthesias” (Gross et al. 2008; Parnas et al. 2005). “Migrating sensations” may be “fluctuating, wandering, circling or rising” throughout the body. Similarly, “sensations of movement, pulling and pressure” may be described as “vibrating”, “quivering”, or “simmering” among others. “Electrifying sensations” may appear as a “strange feeling, starting in the feet and radiating up to the head, like electricity”, and can be “horrible” or “quite pleasant”. “Thermic sensations” of heat, burning, or coldness may be “diffusely wave-like”, “ascending”, or “circumscribed” (Gross et al. 2008, pp. 64–77). Cenesthesias may also be accompanied by emotions and/or emotional release. Cenesthesias typically fluctuate in intensity and may last seconds, minutes, hours, days, or even months or years. In a sample of first-episode psychosis patients, cenesthesias were one of the most common symptoms, reported by the majority of patients (67%). Anomalous bodily experiences were significantly correlated with lower levels of physical activity (Nyboe et al. 2016). (emphasis added) For those who seek emotional release, meditative practices that are traditionally associated with “cenesthesias” may be a path, although I didn't get clarity from this article about what proportion of the people who experienced “cenesthesias” actually experienced emotional release. A frightening description of emotional release, followed by pyschological breakdown: Affective changes were often noted in association with ELSEs and ranged in valence from strong positive affect to intense fear. ELSEs were sometimes accompanied by re-experiencing or uncovering traumatic memories, which some teachers attributed to a process of “opening up” to that which is “stored in the body”. Immediately following the onset of ELSEs, one Tibetan Buddhist practitioner reported having four months of “very gentle […] euphoria”. Then, on a retreat she experienced vivid imagery related to a childhood trauma, which she described as “beautiful” and as having left her “more embodied” and “less dissociated”. Over time, this had the effect of “opening up […] all the trauma of my life”, and this was followed by affective and cognitive changes that proved to be very challenging, such as an escalation of positive affect into “mania”, feelings of paranoia, and a frightening sense that “my body was being controlled”, eventually culminating in multiple hospitalizations for what she described as psychosis. Just a little caution about a possible side-effect of meditative practices that are traditionally associated with “cenesthesias” and emotional release, there.

Fascinating, Captain. "ELSEs (“energy-like somatic experiences”) have also been documented outside of the context of religious and contemplative systems and without the assumption that they are indicative of a kundalini awakening. Multiple ELSEs are part of a standardized taxonomy of experiences in schizophrenia spectrum disorders under the heading of “cenesthesias” (Gross et al. 2008; Parnas et al. 2005). “Migrating sensations” may be “fluctuating, wandering, circling or rising” throughout the body. Similarly, “sensations of movement, pulling and pressure” may be described as “vibrating”, “quivering”, or “simmering” among others. “Electrifying sensations” may appear as a “strange feeling, starting in the feet and radiating up to the head, like electricity”, and can be “horrible” or “quite pleasant”. “Thermic sensations” of heat, burning, or coldness may be “diffusely wave-like”, “ascending”, or “circumscribed” (Gross et al. 2008, pp. 64–77). Cenesthesias may also be accompanied by emotions and/or emotional release. Cenesthesias typically fluctuate in intensity and may last seconds, minutes, hours, days, or even months or years. In a sample of first-episode psychosis patients, cenesthesias were one of the most common symptoms, reported by the majority of patients (67%). Anomalous bodily experiences were significantly correlated with lower levels of physical activity (Nyboe et al. 2016)." 'and can be “horrible” or “quite pleasant”'--I think the Dao Bums tend to expect the "quite pleasant" outcome. Myself, I've not had the experience to say.

What can I tell Karan, about "the twinned threads of vipassana and shamatha", especially if you are associating shamatha with Vajrayana? Thanks, C T.

Friend Karan in India took care of his site: Adventures at the Vipassana Enlightenment Factory The news from Goa this morning: The weather in India has been very strange this year. Up North where it should have been hot as Hades for two months now, it is mostly March weather with a lot of rain (which is unprecedented, pretty much; it usually does not rain more than a couple of times between January and July). Here in Goa the monsoons are nowhere in sight; they should have been here at least a week ago, and the wet bulb temperature is actually greater than in the North (which is also unprecedented). The only upside is that the water table underground is being restored somewhat, which may prevent or delay the gradual desertification of the Northern plains. Things are bad for our farmers though as they depend on the established climactic patterns to know what to cultivate and when to harvest. Karan says that he has been practicing with a Vajrayana teacher for half a year, but he's going back to Vipassana-style meditation for awhile.

Some opinions about Vipsassana retreats: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21979485 Unfortunately the lead article, "Adventures at the Enlightenment Factory" by Karan Vasudeva, is incommunicado at the moment, but there are some interesting opinions on the page linked above.

You have confused me, somewhat. Are you saying that the expected response was "it's a fallacy, mere concepts, useful things to be disposed of"? I'm assuming that. Here, I think, you may run into trouble. These ideas have a parallel in mathematics, in the theory of sets. What is the set that includes all sets--is it a member of itself? Paradoxes like this led the Intuitionist school to break off from the traditional, in the early twentieth century. The Intuitionists rejected the law of the excluded middle, in logic, because of the contradictions that result from its adoption (either a set is a member of itself, or it is not). In the early 1930's, Godel demonstrated that any axiomatic system that allows the whole of what is known in mathematics to be derived from it, also allows contradictions to be derived. Conversely, any axiomatic system that doesn't allow contradictions to be derived, cannot allow all that is known to be true in mathematics to be derived. Godel seemingly reconciled the use of the excluded middle in logic, provided "If a statement is false, then there must exist a counterexample showing its falsity"--so, not simply "true, and if not true then false", but "true, or there exists a counter-example", if not true only false if you have a counter-example. What that says to me is that any attempt to formulate a set of all sets, a Dao, is bound to introduce contradiction at some point. Gautama said that the initial states of concentrations were marked by "equanimity with respect to multiplicity (in the senses)", and the further states prior to the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving" were marked by "equanimity with respect to uniformity (in the senses)". The transcendence of "uniformity" by means of lack of desire results in "the cessation of feeling and perceiving". The first three further states were "excellences of the heart's release" by means of the extension of the mind of compassion, of sympathetic joy, and of equanimity throughout the four quarters, above and below, without limit. That feeling of extension beyond the boundaries of the senses and an associated equanimity with respect to uniformity is perhaps the basis of "Dao", or "the Great Spirit". Actual union apparently requires the lack of desire for union, and the passage through the confusingly named "neither perception and sensation nor yet not perception and sensation" to "the cessation of perception and sensation"--at least, it did for Gautama. Are these concepts useful? Stranger than fiction. Like Godel said, only to a point. The real thing must always exceed any set of organizing principles. That doesn't say that the selfless cause and effect can't be appreciated and partially described, and that to me is Gautama's teaching as regards concentration. It's a partial description, but with regard to each of the states of concentration, he acknowledged that "whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise”. Platonism? The ideal behind the real? I am with you that there are real relationships that may not immediately be evident, all around us and within us, and that we can form conceptual models that at least partially describe those relationships. If I understand correctly, the point you are making is that we can't actually dispense with those partial descriptions, we can't just write them off as something other than samadhi, something that just gets in our way. Gautama described the sixteen elements of mindfulness that he said made up his way of living, and the 9th-12th elements he described he categorized by saying, "of mindfulnesses of the mind, this is one". The four elements were thoughts to be applied and sustained in the course of an inhalation or an exhalation: of the particular of thought, of joy in particular thought, of collecting thought, and of detaching from thought. So, yeah, there's a rhythm of accepting/appreciating thought and detaching the mind, but to say that all concepts and thoughts are an obstacle, or to imagine that concentration exists without thought--good luck. In the second of the initial states of concentration, thought is no longer applied and sustained--that doesn't say there is no thought, and we know that Gautama spent most of his time in the concentration with thought applied and sustained. That's what it means, when he says the sixteen elements were his way of living, before and after enlightenment.