Mark Foote

At the risk of embarassing myself (again): Think about it now Think; think about it now. Was there something left unread Something simple, left unsaid? Think. Say, how things are just say, how things are; say, how things really are just say, how things are Think. Was there someone left outside Someone waiting for a ride? Think.

The study of the foundations of modern mathematics has resulted in two schools of thought, one of which accepts the notion of a completed infinity (an "actual" infinity) and the other of which does not (the intuitionists). Wikipedia says this about the law of the excluded middle (the "law" or rule of logic that says something must be one way or the other, it cannot simultaneously be neither): In general, intuitionists allow the use of the law of excluded middle when it is confined to discourse over finite collections (sets), but not when it is used in discourse over infinite sets (e.g. the natural numbers). Thus intuitionists absolutely disallow the blanket assertion: "For all propositions P concerning infinite sets D: P or ~P" (Kleene 1952:48). Putative counterexamples to the law of excluded middle include the liar paradox or Quine's paradox. (Wikipedia "Law of excluded middle") The intuitionists disallow the law of the excluded middle on completed infinities because such use gives rise to contradictions. Gautama also used the logic that included the law of the excluded middle in his reasoning, as was common at the time. Nevertheless, I think he was aware of the paradoxes that discussing the self as an extant thing would open up--my opinion--and he avoided the conversation. In one case, he shut down the discussion by responding that what was being asserted in a question went beyond what he taught. That says that he viewed what he taught as a limited set of statements about the common reality. That I think is quite in keeping with Godel's demonstration that it's impossible to establish a set of axioms that can provide a basis for everything that is known in mathematics without contradictions from those axioms, and conversely, if your axioms generate no contradictions then you cannot prove everything that is known to be true in mathematics from them.

I know you just set it up to knock it down, in that post. Nevertheless, a caution with regard to the consideration of the infinite as complete, from the field of mathematics: Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity–the number line’s promise of continuing forever–but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object. Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens. (Natalie Wolchover, Quanta Magazine December 3, 2013, reprint https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/infinity-logic-law/) The mathematician Poincare sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, actual infinity): There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincare [Les mathematiques et la logique III, Rev. metaphys. morale (1906) p. 316]) To my mind, that is why Gautama spoke in terms of what is not the self--it avoids treating infinity as a completed thing (although he didn't always avoid completed infinities).

Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving. (“Whole-Body Zazen”, lecture by Shunryu Suzuki at Tassajara, June 28, 1970 (edited by Bill Redican, http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/wholebodyzazen.html) Who ya gonna believe! Hui-neng supposedly was enlightened in a market place, when he heard an itinerant preacher read from the Diamond Sutra: Let the mind be present without an abode. (tr. Venerable Master Hsing Yun, “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing p 60) Here's koun Franz, explaining two versions of "place the mind here": Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of “navel gazing”. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your center of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (No Struggle (Zazen Yojinki, Part 6), by koun Franz, from koun’s “Nyoho Zen” site)

In my experience, it's a sudden thing, as far as the cessation of (volition in) action of the body.

Interesting mix of Zen aphorisms. Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. Of themselves body and mind will drop away, and your original face will appear. (Eihei Dogen, “Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version, tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176) I can find references to "your face before your parents were born", but they're more recent than the references to "original face". Can I suggest that turning the light and shining it back means turning awareness to the location of awareness itself, to a physical sense of location in space associated with awareness? When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point... Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. (“Genjo Koan”, Dogen; tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi.) That last part is where zazen gets up and walks around. Dual when there's an object of awareness outside of awareness. Non-dual when awareness moves and everything is incorporated in the location, from one moment to the next.

Not necessary to hear and act, "atman consciousness" can move the body without conscious volition. That "lower consciousness" must act is the veil. "You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around." (Kobun Chino Otogawa, lecture at SF Zen Center, '80's) The experience is intimately tied to the movement of breath, at least that's how I came to know of it. I tried to remain mindful of the movement of breath throughout a day, and I only got as far as the afternoon before zazen got me up out of a chair and walked me to the door. I played with hypnosis a lot, in high school. Action of the body without volition is like hypnotic suggestion, except the suggestion is coming from nowhere. Now I see that there's an inter-relationship between a singular sense of location associated with awareness, a totality of what the senses perceive that extends beyond the limits of consciousness (somehow), and the movement of breath--these things can combine at times to generate a physical action. Some of the time, it's an override--stops what I intended to do. Sometimes it starts me to doing something. Rarely, I am delivered somewhere I need to be, or brought to some action I needed to do, but had no conscious realization of. For a long time, I thought the object was to stay with action without conscious intention all the time. I believe that's why the experience is sometimes described in Zen literature as ruining one's life. Now I see that there's a rhythm of mindfulness, and beholding the cessation of (volitive) action in the body is just one of the elements. It’s impossible to teach the meaning of sitting. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun, “Embracing Mind”, edited by Cosgrove & Hall, pg 48) The trick is this (you all knew there was a trick, didn't you?): It’s definitely a catch-22. It’s necessary to have “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness to move in space” (as I wrote in my last post), in order to generate and sustain an even stretch, but it’s also necessary to have an even stretch in order to experience “freedom of the singular location of self-awareness”. (my One Thing and Another) The even stretch is the distribution of the stretch of ligaments throughout the body. Ligaments only stretch 7% at most. It's subtle. The habitual activity in the movement of breath drops away as the stretch of ligaments becomes the initiator of action, but at some point the stretch can only be rounded by experience of the singularity of the location of awareness and the totality of the senses in the movement of breath. Happens every night in falling asleep, and I can fall asleep in some weird postures, so it's not like a perfection of posture is necessarily involved in the evenness of stretch. I'm thinking that it tends toward a recognizable posture, toward recognizable postures, but that's not necessarily an easy thing to realize physically--at least not for me. Folks like the way I dance, but Zen teachers don't like my posture when I sit. I hope to say I'm working on it.

Gautama described the power of concentration by saying: Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind. (SN V 200, Pali Text Society V 176) He taught that volition in action ceases in the states of concentration, first with regard to speech, then with regard to deed, and finally with regard to perceiving and feeling. In his description of his own experience of the cessation of volition in perceiving and feeling, Gautama stated he was left with "only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself." He didn't aim to eliminate all disturbance, just to quiesce the exercise of volition, and the suffering associated with that exercise. The exercise of volition can't be dispensed with by the exercise of volition. Gautama claimed that volition ceased in a particular progression of concentrations, which he described. He said that the ascendance from one state of concentration to the next was attained through "lack of desire, by means of lack of desire." He spoke of persons who bragged about their concentration and their attainments, and he said with regard to each concentration, "for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise”. "Making self-surrender the object of thought", I think that's particularly about surrendering action that comes out of the identification of a self. I abbreviate Gautama's way of living for myself this way: Appreciate the action of the body, and relax. Appreciate the action of the senses, and calm down. Appreciate the action of the mind, and open up. Appreciate the action of consciousness, and let go. As to how that becomes the cessation of volition in action: With an even stretch throughout the body, the location where consciousness takes place can become the source of action of the body. (from my For A Friend) Like falling off a log, whilst on my way to sawing logs.

Science is good, even though when it comes to underlying theory, scientists will have their differences. Last night I thought of an odd connection, between Gautama's description of the fourth meditative state (in which volition in the body ceases) and a case from "The Blue Cliff Record", the "Record" being the collection of cases published by Ch'an teacher Yuanwu in China. Here's Gautama's description of the feeling of the fourth meditative state, again: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19) And here's the case: Yun Yen asked Tao Wu, "What does the Bodhisattva of Great Compassion use so many hands and eyes for?" Wu said, "It's like somebody reaching back groping for a pillow in the middle of the night." Yen said, "I understand." Wu said, "How do you understand it?" Yen said, "All over the body are hands and eyes." Wu said, "You have said quite a bit there, but you've only said eighty percent of it." Yen said, "What do you say, Elder Brother?" Wu said, "Throughout the body are hands and eyes." ("The Blue Cliff Record", Yuanwu, tr. Cleary & Cleary, Shambala p. 489) I wrote about the case, some years ago: Proprioception for me involves that shift in the sense of the location of awareness, and the ability to feel throughout my body. That is why there are hands and eyes all over the body; proprioception moves the location of awareness, so that equalibrioception continues to occur with the experience of the feeling of the part in the whole. A continuity with a sensation like the cessation of activity in falling asleep can ensue through relaxation in the activity of breath. Proprioception accounts for the hands, but the eyes also inform the sense of location--in fact, the eyes can reset the sense of location. The feeling of location associated with awareness is a function of equalilbrioception (the vestibulars), proprioception (the proprioceptors), graviception (the otoliths), and oculoception (the eyes). Dysfunction in the coordination of these senses can result in an out-of-body experience (see the work of Olaf Blanke). Healthy coordination of these senses means there's a location in the body associated with the experience of awareness, and that location is singular. The influence of the eyes on the location of self-awareness is strong, and frequently I feel the awareness I identify as "self" to be behind my eyes, in my head. An openness to the other senses involved in that sense of location, particularly proprioception, and a surrender of action of the body in the movement of breath, can yield a feeling that the mind is moving. Not just the the object of attention, but the location of self-awareness is moving, throughout the body. The purity of mind--not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by the purity of mind. Hands and eyes, throughout the body.

I like Gautama's teachings, because he casts the cessation of volition in action as the first link in the chain leading to the cessation of suffering: But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) He offered that "birth, decay-and-death, grief... this entire mass of ill" was actually just grasping after self in the five groups (material form, feeling, the mind, habitual tendencies, and consciousness): Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill. (AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160) Of course, that's only one of many renditions of the chain that he offered, but it's the one that's relevant to me. The station of consciousness, that's the opposite of the mind that moves. The mind that moves feels like: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19) The mind that moves is pure because it's non-dual. You got duality, you got a stationary mind (you suffer). The mind that moves can be experienced just before falling asleep. Koun Franz also describes letting the mind move, as an experiment (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/). It's subtle, like whether or not it was an insurrection at the capitol...

Yer welcome, nice to have some folks to play badminton with. There are a lot of cessations mentioned in the sermons, but the whole teaching is about the cessation of "determinate thought" in action, first in speech, then in the body, then in the mind. The Main Guy further delineated that with regard to the body, cessation of action was the cessation of (determinate thought in) in-breathing and out-breathing, and with regard to the mind cessation of action was the cessation of (determinate thought in) perceiving and feeling. Some of the other cessations: cessation of dis-ease in the first concentration. Thought is applied and sustained in the first concentration, in Gautama's case apparently to the sixteen elements of the mindfulness that made up his way of living. Cessation of unhappiness in the second concentration, marked by the cessation of thought applied and sustained. Cessation of ease apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, in the third concentration. Cessation of happiness apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, in the fourth concentration. Cessation of equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses and the induction of equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses, in the first of the further states, "the infinity of ether", that state being the excellence of the heart's release through the extension of the mind of compassion throughout the four quarters of the world, above, below, without limit. Fun stuff. But yeah, the attainment of the fourth of the initial states, cessation of action of the body--then no "latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body." That I think is the reference in "the witness of cessation, breathing in; the witness of cessation, breathing out" that constitutes the fifteenth of the elements of Gautama's mindfulness. Not the witness of cessation of (determinate thought) in perceiving and feeling, that is the attainment associated with Gautama's enlightenment, and although he may have been able to touch that any time he wanted, the evidence in his sermons is that he usually moved from the cessation of action of the body to the "survey-sign", which I presume was the way to call up the cessation of action of the body in the course of the sixteen elements. Gautama took the emphasis off enlightenment in some of the sermons, pointing instead to his way of living, the sixteen elements of his mindfulness. I tend to think of this as an evolution in his teaching, but there's no way to pinpoint the time line of the teachings, for the most part. He definitely recommended the sixteen elements after so many of his monks committed suicide, practicing meditation on "the unlovely" aspects of the body (SN V chapter on in-breathing and out-breathing).

I should maybe have added, "And everybody does, it's just that not everybody recognizes it as such."

That makes it sound like something that happens in a living buddha, but I think of it more in terms of what happens at death. On passing, the buddha/arahant somehow escapes the whole of existence, whereas the "never returner" only escapes sentient form. If I understand correctly. Send in the clowns. Gautama left his wife and son. He encouraged others to extreme aceticism, for awhile. There's a sermon where he expressed clearly misogynistic views. When asked by Ananda the fate of an alcoholic who had left the order and passed, Gautama described the alcoholic as a never-returner, which made little sense to Ananda (meanwhile, when asked by Ananda the fate of many others who had passed, Gautama told Ananda that he should judge for himself based on the kind of life they had led). A man who had transcended his karma? You could say, well, he attained the cessation of (volition in) perception and sensation at the moment of his death and therefore transcended the cause-and-effect of volitive action, but the account of his death states that he had just passed out of the fourth of the "material" meditative states when he died, not the fourth of the immaterial states (how the sage knew that, another mysterious ability, but that's what was said). Most folks here seem to assume that a person is either enlightened, or they're not--am I right? No degrees of enlightenment, no falling back. I guess that was one of the questions at the second conclave of monks, after Gautama's death--could an arahant fall back. I believe they agreed the answer was no. But then, they couldn't agree on whether or not an arahant could have a wet dream! I've come to believe that it's a lot like the movies. A certain number of frames a second, and there's an illusion of continuity on the screen. I believe the elements of mindfulness have a rhythm, and most of the teachers we have and have had in the modern era are masters of that rhythm. That doesn't say that these teachers have mastered the cessation of (volition in) feeling and perceiving, the experience associated with Gautama's enlightenment. I assume the cessation of (volition in) action of the body (and in particular, the cessation of habit/volition in inhalation and exhalation) is likely to be the cessation Gautama referred to in the fifteenth of his elements of mindfulness. I would say that once the stretch associated with the mind that moves is established, once the mind that moves establishes an overall stretch, it's possible to drop into the cessation of action of the body on a regular basis. Gautama said the sixteen elements of his mindfulness were his way of living, particularly in the rainy season. Sounds like the rhythm is easier to experience in sitting.

I like this, from Awaken: If you practice with an attitude that focuses on guiding the sense of qi you've lost your non-binary attitude A non-binary attitude you can't talk about at the same time On the other hand, you use duality in your practice This is very contradictory I also agree with this, from stirling: Enlightenment is seeing through your belief in a person that chooses and realizing it was always just a delusion about how things are. I think it's necessary to experience action in the absence of choice, before "belief in a person that chooses" can be abandoned. The experience of action of the body without the exercise of volition (choice) occurs in the fourth of the initial concentrations, according to Gautama. I would say it's also possible to just drop into such cessation, Rujing's "drop mind and body". That's because such a cessation basically depends on the freedom of the mind to move, as experienced right here, right now. I would contend that it's an experience of this freedom that is described in the Tibetan literature as: ... the Clear Light Dharmakaya experience which can be had at death, falling asleep, fainting or in advanced tantric meditations. ("The Mahamudra Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance by the Ninth Karmapa Wang-ch'ug dor-je, with commentary given orally by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche" (p. 142)) I focus on the way the mind moves just before falling asleep, in my own writing, as a place to begin. I finish my writing with a description of the linkage between stretch and the freedom of the mind to move, stretch that meditators take the seated posture to realize, the freedom of the mind to move that leads the stretch. I'm not aiming for the experience Gautama had, that gave rise to his enlightenment. I would like to breathe free.

Something for Bindi, from "The Mahamudra Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance by the Ninth Karmapa Wang-ch'ug dor-je, with commentary given orally by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche" (p. 40-41): According to the tantra teachings, the mind and the energy-winds upon which it rides are inseparable. If the energy-winds (prana, lung) are properly channeled, the mind will be focused; but when they run wild then thoughts do likewise. These winds run through energy-channels (nadi, tza), the main ones being the central, right and left ones parallel to and slightly in front of the spine. Normally the winds pass only through the right and left ones, and in this way act as the vehicle for deluded thoughts. Such delusions are stopped, however, when the energy-winds carrying them are no longer available, having been channelised and centralised into the central energy-channel. Therefore if your rough body is straight and in the correct posture, your energy-channels will also be in a proper position. Then the energy-winds can flow freely through them and, when properly channeled, your mind will be fully focused. For this reason the bodily posture of Vairocana is essential. This work is available online, at no cost. There are some further instructions in the text.

Like to thank all you Bums, for rare conversation IMHO. Like walking on a muddy road, with occasional stones--I'll take it. Thanks, Awaken, for including translations. A quote that I think reveals important details of Gautama's teaching about self: "Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body." (MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68.) Doesn't much matter "what is the self", here--it's what is not the self. The "perfect wisdom" that Gautama refers to, in his case was the consequence of the cessation of volition in perceiving and feeling, in the actions of the mind. Having remained for some interval in a state where actions of perceiving and feeling took place without intention, without will, and without deliberation, Gautama knew beyond a doubt that material shape, feeling, perception, the habitual tendencies, and consciousness were not his, they were not his self. Interestingly, the consequence of his application of that "perfect wisdom" in the above quote is not the cessation of (volition in) action of the mind (in perceiving and feeling), but rather the cessation of (volition in) action of the body (in inhalation and exhalation). He's quite explicit, that for some one knowing and seeing by means of perfect wisdom, "there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' with regard to this consciousness-informed body." Now I can ask myself, when I'm picking up a cup of coffee or tea, who is bringing the cup to my lips. It's not really a matter of self, it's a matter of volition versus the place of consciousness in the movement of breath, as the source of the action. And it's not really necessary to attain "the cessation of perceiving and feeling" to have an experience that completely destroys "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer'" with regard to the body. That is why not all the gurus and teachers teach that there is no self to be found, in form, in feeling, in mind, in habit or volition, or in mental state.

Harmonic motion four hundred pelicans fly strung along the lake

We veer a tad off topic, in discussing the authenticity of the quotes rather than offering the quotes themselves. Nevertheless! As I mentioned, for me, the material in the sermons of the Pali Canon have few parallels in the literature of the world, religious or otherwise. The sermons detail stages in the abandonment of volition that I have only found described elsewhere in the classics of Tai Chi (possibly in the Gospel of Thomas?), and they describe a way of living that has no parallel description anywhere to my knowledge. I recognize that there are many teachers in the past and in the modern era who have been assumed by those who came into contact with them to have experienced an enlightenment like that of Gautama the Shakyan. One of the conclusions I've reached from studying the Canon sermons and from accounts of modern teachers is that the experience necessary for the Gautamid's way of living is not the same as the experience that accompanied Gautama's enlightenment. Certainly we have the sermon in the Canon that describes the two teachers Gautama studied under, and how he mastered their teachings but was yet unsatisfied. Would most of us have regarded those teachers as enlightened? I think so. Was their "enlightenment" based on having had the enlightenment experience Gautama eventually had? No. I summarize this in my latest post (on Zazen Notes): I think most of the teachers regarded as enlightened since Gautama have an intimate familiarity with the elements of mindfulness in Gautama’s way of living, whether they understand those elements through the teachings of Gautama or otherwise, and they have faith that the rhythm of those elements in daily life is the path. Steve writes: "You see and feel the teaching". I do know what that feels like, to be in the presence of someone who carries themselves with an almost supernatural grace, but we have a lot of examples, especially here in the West, of a disconnect between the kind of mastery most of us associate with enlightenment and the behavior of the teacher in private. People want to feel that they can, through their own efforts or through devotion to another, turn a corner and be the master of their own destiny. I do think experience of the cessation of volitive/habitual activity in in-breathing and out-breathing is a necessary part of the way of living Gautama described as his own, and that some people master that cessation and consequently become very adept at a way of living that embodies a certain grace. I also think that as with the two teachers Gautama studied under, there are degrees of "enlightenment", although experience of "the cessation of (determinate thought in) action of the body" may be common to all of them. I do believe the physical presence of a teacher can be invaluable in precipitating an experience of such a cessation, and that a person's life can change as a result of the experience, but that doesn't say that they can successfully find a way of living that incorporates the experience, such as Gautama described. Just means their life is ruined, and they have to find a way to pick up the pieces, but somehow people don't seem to want to aspire to that.

That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill. (AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160) First quote above, restated with “(in short,) the five groups” in place of “ill”: That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (the five groups based on grasping come to be). Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence (arises the five groups of grasping). But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (no arising of the five groups takes place). Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

Beg to differ. It's generally thought that Gautama's companion Ananda had a photographic memory for sound, and that the sermons in the Pali Canon that begin with "thus have I heard" (and there're a lot of them) were recounted by Ananda. True that the books of sermons had to be committed to memory for something like five hundred years. It's my understanding that memorizing a book was a requirement to be ordained, at one point in time, but I can't point to sources on that. However, there is repetition and similarity in the statements of the major points of the teaching throughout the sermons, and when you combine that with the uniqueness of what he said, his voice stands out. When I quote from the Pali sermons, I make a point of only quoting from the sermons attributed to Gautama, and the reason for that is that the teaching in the hands of his disciples is subtly different. It's made very clear, in the Canon, which sermons were Gautama's, and which were by a disciple. The difficulty is that he is fundamentally teaching the cessation of willful activity, of intention, of deliberative action. It's like looking at a star--"Stars disappear when you look directly at them because of the anatomy of the photoreceptors in your retina", copped that off the internet but it's true. You cannot willfully cease willful action. But in the meditative states, volitive activity ceases, first in speech, then in deed (the body), then in perception and sensation (the mind). And how are the states attained? "By lack of desire; by means of lack of desire". Just sitting, anyone? There is nothing like it anywhere in the rest of the religious literature of the world. Even if it wasn't Gautama the Shakyan that gave us the teaching in the Pali sermons, they are still one of a kind. "The cessation of (determinate thought in) in-breathing and out-breathing" is synonymous with the induction of the fourth meditative state. This is the cessation of intentional action of the body, but not the cessation of action. So long as a person has not seen action of the body in the absence of volition, they can't believe that it can happen--they continue to believe "I am the doer, mine is the doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body". That is why Zen relies on an experience outside of scripture, and emphasizes teacher to student transmission. When I took judo, it was understood that every teacher has a particular throw that is their signature. My teacher's was the sweep. All of his students mastered the sweep, but it wasn't actually a conscious thing, even though we practiced it a lot. Somehow we all picked up on his body English, and we got it. I practiced hypnosis in high school, and self-hypnosis. I understood that it's possible for an outside suggestion to move the body, without the will of the subject. Nevertheless, to discover that through strict attendance to the movement of breath, a suggestion could come from some part of me that would move the body without conscious intention, was the shock of my life.

Twilight, frozen lake North wind about to break on footprints in the snow Ok, that's Dylan, but 5-7-5!

“You hear a lot of talk about enlightenment… I'm asking the Bums to describe it, and what you would know when you attain it.” Bear with me if I repeat some of what I wrote earlier on the thread. Gautama the Shakyan described “action” as action out of determinate thought: ... I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 294) Gautama pointed out the role of “determinate thought” in the cause and effect that leads to “ill”: That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and here from birth, decay, and death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, and despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this mass of ill. Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence birth… takes place. But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. (SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45) Insight into dependent causation, like that above, is usually taken to be the substance of Gautama's enlightenment. Gautama sometimes abbreviated suffering and the “entire mass of ill” as “the five groups”: Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill. (AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160; parenthetical added) Here, “the five groups based on grasping” refers to grasping after a sense of self with respect to either form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or state of mind. The substance of Gautama’s enlightenment can be paraphrased with “the five groups” in place of “birth, old age and decay, sickness (etc.)”: That which we will…, and that which we intend to do and that wherewithal we are occupied:–this becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being there, there comes to be a station of consciousness. Consciousness being stationed and growing, rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (the five groups based on grasping come to be). Even if we do not will, or intend to do, and yet are occupied with something, this too becomes an object for the persistance of consciousness… whence (arises the five groups of grasping). But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence (of consciousness) takes place in the future, and herefrom (no arising of the five groups takes place). Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill. Gautama taught four truths: the existence of ill, the origin of ill (the chain of causation as above), the cessation of ill (as above), and the path that leads to the cessation of ill. Regarding the eight-fold path that leads to the cessation of ill, there is a lecture where he offers an approach based solely on the senses (with the mind as the sixth sense): (A person)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind). Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified. (Majjhima-Nikaya, Pali Text Society volume 3 pg 337-338, ©Pali Text Society) What I have recounted in the above quotations is a particular thread in the teachings, a thread that doesn’t tie enlightenment to the notion of reincarnation or multiple lives, but instead only to the phenomena of consciousness and the senses. The thread is there in what historians agree is the most accurate account of Gautama’s words (the first four volumes of the Pali sermons). I accept that there are experiences that can lead to a great presence of mind that are not the enlightenment experience Gautama had—certainly the two teachers that Gautama had in India prior to his enlightenment had such experiences, and my guess is that most people would have regarded them as enlightened, even though in the end Gautama found their teachings unsatisfactory. In at least two volumes in the Pali sermons, Gautama forsook the direct admonition of the pursuit of enlightenment, and instead advised his followers to adopt the practice of mindfulness that he described as his own. He said that it was his way of living before his enlightenment (when he “was yet a Bodhisattva”, SN V 317), as well as after (“the Tathagatha’s way of life”, ibid 326), and that it was the “best of ways” (ibid). Moreover, he declared the practice to be a gateway to all the antecedents of enlightenment, and to the release and freedom that constituted enlightenment (ibid 328). I think most of the teachers regarded as enlightened since Gautama have an intimate familiarity with the elements of mindfulness in Gautama’s way of living, and they have faith that the rhythm of those elements in daily life is the path. There’s a difference between the mindfulness that was Gautama’s own, and what is currently taught. That difference has to do with the observation of cessation, the fifteenth of the sixteen elements in Gautama’s mindfulness. I believe the cessation Gautama referred to is the cessation of (determinate thought in) action of the body, in particular the “cessation of (determinate thought in) in-breathing and out-breathing”--that might sound simple, but here’s a description of what that cessation can look like in daily life: You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around. (Kobun Chino Otogawa, at the S.F. Zen Center, 1980’s) That’s an example of the cessation of action, action based on the exercise of will, or on intent, or on deliberation: the Gautamid’s way of living gets up and walks around. Here’s another description, taken from the close of Dogen’s “Genjo Koan”: Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, “Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?” “Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent,” Mayu replied, “you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere.” “What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?” asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply. (tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi) I would say Mayu’s fanning continued despite the cessation of (determinate thought in) his action of in-breathing and out-breathing--the wind without intent (the permanent wind) reached to his hand and fanned. You won’t believe it. Not because I say something wrong, but until you experience it and confirm it by yourself, you cannot believe it. (Kobun Chino Otogawa; “Embracing Mind”, edited Cosgrove & Hall, p 48) Sometimes I think there are teachers out there, especially American-born Zen teachers, who are only intimately familiar with the elements of Gautama’s way of living when it comes to sitting still. However, as Nan-Yueh Hwai-Jang (Ta-hui) said: If you’re studying seated meditation, meditation is not sitting still. (“Dogen’s Meditation Manuals”, Bielefeldt, UC Press 1st edition, p 195)

A. K. Warder's "Indian Buddhism" has some fascinating history. Among other things, he recounts the history of the first schism. Seems there were five points of contention, and the two camps were able to agree on four of the five. The one they couldn't agree on was whether or not an arahant could be seduced by a succubus in his sleep--translation: whether or not an arahant could have a wet dream. Not as romantic as small vehicle versus great vehicle, is it. Regarding the miracles: there are six of them listed in the Pali Suttas. Things like diving through the earth as though it were water, floating through the air. The one that stands out for me is "stroking the sun and moon with the hand". Gautama's advice for developing psychic abilities was: So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front. As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front; as below, so above: as above, so below: as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day. Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy. (Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society) I take a look at this practice (and Gautama's explanation of it) in The Gautamid Offers a Practice. Regarding the last line, I wrote this: “Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.” When consciousness leads the balance of the body to open the ability of nerves to feel, sensory awareness is heightened, and through heightened awareness the sense of location as consciousness occurs is sharpened. As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid) that flexes and extends with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral fluid. The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”).

I think it's interesting that in the text I quoted previously, the first paragraph says that "objectless meditation" is not as if you were in a faint, and the second paragraph explicitly identifies being in a faint as a place where "the clear light dharmakaya experience" can be had. The meditative retreat the young woman you mentioned was on sounds like a Goenka retreat. They have videos rather than in-person instruction (for the most part), and they are long retreats, 10 days of sitting long periods (in any posture) with no talking. It's hard to say what her experience actually was, from your description. There are tales of people doing themselves harm after meditating on the unlovely (aspects of the body), including the sutra about the suicide of scores of monks in the Pali Samyutta Nikaya volume V (chapter on the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing). Read about a woman not long ago who attended a retreat in India that featured the meditation on the unlovely, and she jumped to her death from a building as a result. There's at least one post about bad results experienced out of Goenka retreats, and the commentators on that post seem to agree that the Goenka retreats aren't equipped to handle anything like this. Karan Vasudeva has a great article documenting his experience at a Goenka retreat, if you're interested. One of the people who was able to make use of my outline in "Waking Up and Falling Asleep" gave this description, of the moment when he finally found the practice in waking life: I have taken it a bit further, experimenting with it during the day. same practice, find the location of the consciousness. It pulls me into the present. the feeling lasts 2-3 seconds, but it is something that I have never experienced before. being really present, here and now. the mental projection into the future stops, the past stops. I am just here and now. no future plans or worries. no goals, no dreams that are waiting to be fullfilled. time stops. no where to go. I am just here and now. (Post: Feedback from 'humbleone') Many years later, I am able to describe what I feel is the appropriate context for such an experience: it's the rhythm of the elements of mindfulness that Gautama described, the key being that what's important in daily living is the rhythm, not a particular state of mind. The experience humbleone described above is the witness of cessation, the fifteenth of the sixteen elements of mindfulness that made up Gautama's way of living; the sixteenth is the witness of the relinquishment of self. Collect 'em all, here!