Mark Foote

I continue to sit the 40 in the lotus, at least once a day, in spite of the extent of the stretch that I find myself in past 35. I'm looking for the activity of the sitting to be generated involuntarily out of the stretch of ligaments, in reciprocity for the most part, and I accept that the stretch that's involved is going to develop strength that has to do with balance that I may not have had before. That means sometimes the stretch is a lot, for a little bit of activity! Balance is going to open the ability to feel, through alignment of the spine and ease in the exits of the nerves from within the spine, so there's an evolution of stretch and activity, alignment and the ability to feel. Ligaments can generate activity in muscles to relieve the stretch of ligaments, and when the ligaments are in pairs on opposite sides of the body, relief of the stretch in ligaments on one side can develop stretch in the ligaments on the other side. The stretch and activity can bounce back and forth from one side to another, in a subtle way. That's what I mean by reciprocity, and the whole thing can be involuntary. I think of Dennis Merzel, who says he started out in half-lotus, then sat for a long time in full lotus, and now is sitting Burmese. I admire the way he has figured out what works for him and been willing to change. It's true that there are folks out there who damaged their knees with the lotus, presumably trying to force the activity of posture instead of allowing it to develop through the stretch of the bands and the sheets. If it's not possible to find a stretch, and there's only pain, there's no point in continuing in any given posture as far as I'm concerned.

Rideforever, I went through the sermon volumes (except the 5th, which is a later composition), and tried to get a cohesive (short) picture of the teachings, in 1995. I finally edited what I had, and put it up online a couple of years ago: http://zenmudra.com/zenmudra-wheel-of-the-sayings.html or, as a PDF: http://zenmudra.com/Making Sense of the Pali Sutta--the Wheel of the Sayings.pdf I'm not sure Gautama's vision of the natural social order was any great shakes, and the thing I value most in his teaching was his response to the suicide of scores of his monks (Sanyutta Nikaya V Pali Text Society pg 285): he assembled the monks, and taught "the concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" as a thing complete in itself (forget about striving for enlightenment), and a pleasant way of living, besides. More about that here, if you're interested: http://www.zenmudra.com/zenmudra-shikantaza-Gautama-way-of-living.html There's some of the best information I've found in the sermon volumes, but I agree you have to speed-read a lot to find it. The Gospel of Thomas is another of my favorites, as is Cheng Man-Ching's "Thirteen Chapters" on Tai Chi. Good luck! Mark Foote

I will mow them down but first, I will stand them up smooth shave every time

Equilibrium Senses in a tizzy, whoa As I am, I am

are our resources like a rattler in the sun? best to know enough

Cueball, with reference to "perfect wisdom"--to me, it's just another "completed infinity", as I write here: http://zenmudra.com/zazen-notes/blog_detail.php?post_id=201#post Gautama's use of the phrase was grounded in the palpable (at least some of the time): Whatever... is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies... whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self', sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body." MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68. That to me is a good example of Gautama's emphasis on cessation, on surrendering action based on intent. This doesn't say that action ceases--as Kobun Otogawa once said, "sometimes zazen gets up and walks around." Eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) is precisely acting through intent, for good or for evil, and Gautama is clear that either way results in ill. Something to think about, in a thread where we agree that the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are a rare opportunity to hear the teaching--what is our intent, when we discuss their meaning? Are we trying to accomplish something, some perceived good?

I am coming at the teachings through the Pali Canon sermon volumes and some practice of martial arts, as well as works like "The Gospel of Thomas". I would say, however, that the lotus has been my main practice, even though I would not consider myself an adept by any means. The emphasis in Gautama's teachings in the Canon is on the surrender of self, and the cessation of habitual or voluntary activity, first in speech, then in inhalation and exhalation (the body), and then in perception and sensation (the heart-mind--the mind, he regarded as one of six senses). Like Jesus, Gautama sometimes spoke of himself in a kind of mystical sense, as "the Tathagata", or "thus-gone" one. Some of the cessations Gautama spoke of are: 1) discomfort (dis-ease); 2) unhappiness 3) ease apart from equanimity 4) happiness apart from equanimity These are the cessations of the four material meditative states, marked by equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses. The cessation of happiness apart from equanimity is simultaneous with the cessation of habitual or volitive activity with respect to inhalation or exhalation. The four immaterial states are marked by equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses, and the cessation of habitual or volitive activity in perception and sensation follows the abandonment of that equanimity. Gautama surpassed his two teachers, in realizing the cessation of perception and sensation. I don't think you can actually identify the senses as something other than the body, and to experience equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses requires the cessation of habitual or volitive activity in inhalation and exhalation, so I'm not sure "transcend the body" is the way to express what transpires. Saying 84 that you quote reminds me of Gautama's ability to see past lives, and to know whether his disciples were once-returners or whatever at death. Apart from these abilities, Gautama performed no miracle but teaching, although some of his disciples did. I think it's questionable whether Jesus actually performed miracles or not--doesn't detract from what he had to say, for me. I find myself returning to what Gautama described as his way of living, both before and after enlightenment. You can read more about that here, if you like. It's been said that enlightenment is about something you lose--I don't know who said that, but I believe it. Jesus lost what was Jesus.

Lately I've been writing about two oddities of the human condition. The first, I learned of through this article online: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/ The notion there is that there is an anxiety produced when the brain decides that I'm suffocating, although the exact conditions that trigger the suffocation response can be complex. I encounter this when I sit, and the effort for me is to relax. The second, I've known for some time, but the Tai Chi teacher Cheng Man-ching describes it well: Generally, ancient people referred to self-cultivation as cheng ching wei tso (straightening the clothes and sitting upright). The derivation of the word wei is difficult. Most people do not dare to interpret it as meaning ‘dangerous’. But I think the words wei tso contain the actual meaning of danger because the spine, like a string of pearls, has many sections ascending vertically. (Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 42, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng) And in fact, there is shearing force at the 4th and 5th lumbar vertebrae, because of the way the lower spine curves back toward the junction with the top of the sacrum. Again, there is an anxiety associated with the experience of the precariousness of being upright, and I find I have to calm myself in response. This is the poverty of the body, and yet, with relaxation and calm, a one-pointedness of heart-mind comes forward. The senses work together to provide a feeling of place associated with awareness, to make an eye in the place of an eye, a hand in the place of a hand, a foot in the place of a foot, and an image in the place of an image.

Here's verse 80 (from the Greek) again: 80) Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered the body, and whoever has discovered the body, of that one the world is not worthy." I wonder about the word translated as "reign" in verse 2. Ok, here are the two lines from the Coptic (Nag Hammadi manuscripts) instead of the Greek, using the source that Apech referred to in the very first post on this thread: 2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." 80) Jesus said, "He who has recognized the world has found the body, but he who has found the body is superior to the world." "Rule over the All" instead of "reign over all", is the part I'm interested in. In particular, "the All" sheds a little light on the kind of "all" over which the reigning or ruling is to take place--"the All" is more than the material, if I'm understanding correctly, whereas "reign over all" has a more material sound. As to the body, could he just be talking about the material body, complete with phlegm and bile and excrement? Like this: 29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I think it can be hard to take a forum site like this seriously. I do, because it's been a big help to me, and there are people here who have contributed a lot to my understanding. Maybe some of us haven't had that experience. I just figure those who use a word like "wankers" are from somewhere in the commonwealth, and can't be held responsible for their provenciality (just kidding!). As has been said, life is much too important to take seriously...

Just got up from 35 minutes, which was all the pretzel my afternoon belly wanted to do. I think the main thing about sitting the lotus is, when did you start. The guy who told me to take my time with the lotus was sitting the pose very early 'cause his father was a zen teacher in Japan--Kobun and his brothers were wrestling in the lotus when he was 7. I know he demonstrated getting into the pose without using his hands at least once. Ok, I'm never gonna be that flexible, I'm pretty sure, but I've learned a lot. Not a lot different from practicing the standing martial arts with the knees bent, I'm guessing. I heard somewhere that the only martial arts that are useful in the cage are the contact martial arts, principally boxing, judo, and jiu-jitsu (I guess Brazilian jiu-jitsu has more contact than the kind I studied for six months back in 1967). There's a video out there of some poor Aikido black belt instructor who took on a boxer. They stopped the fight after several punches in the face and head, delivered by the boxer. I am still inspired by Cheng Man-ching, and Bruce Lee made us all think anything's possible, but if it doesn't deliver some kind of happiness I'm afraid I can't get myself to do it. So far the lotus does that, but my practice is better on an empty stomach (first thing in the morning or before I retire in the evening). I like seeing people's pictures, here's yours truly:

I've been rewriting and amplifying on my response to your question, ion, working on a post for my own blog--here's what I've got, so far (& maybe this is it!): "Is the suffocation response something you experience while sitting?" It’s something I experience every sitting, along with the anxiety connected with the precariousness of posture. The precariousness for me is mostly about support for the lumbar curve, from the middle lumber vertebrae to the sacrum. That's why my description of anatomy starts with the ligaments from the pelvis to the fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae, and focuses on the mechanisms by which the fascia behind the lower back is displaced in support of the lumbar spine. My sitting is largely a matter of realizing a spontaneous breath in the midst of activity that initiates or sustains support in the lower back. I don't know about anybody else, but for me that requires a recognition that I am staying out of suffocation, while relinquishing control of the precariousness of posture. I know that the alignment of the spine affects my ability to feel. The spaces between the vertebrae allow the nerves that exit the spine to relay feeling from the various parts of the body to the brain, in a dynamic that changes as the alignment of the spine changes. The more I discover relaxation in the face of the suffocation response and calm in the face of the precariousness of posture, the more the things that come forward for me in sitting reflect a timely ability to feel. Lately I tend to emphasize the relaxation of activity when I experience discomfort, and the calming of the senses that coordinate the placement of awareness when I experience unhappiness. That I can experience ease and not experience happiness, I think is an oddity of human nature. On the other side of the suffocation response, comes ease and the experience of the senses that go together to make up the feeling of place in awareness. On the other side of the anxiety associated with precariousness comes a detachment from the placement of awareness, and happiness associated with a balanced ability to feel. Cheng Man-Ching described three “stages of development” in the art of Tai Chi: 1) Relaxation from the shoulders to the wrists, from the hip joint to the heels, and from the sacrum to the headtop; 2) Sinking the ch’i to the tan t’ien, the ch’i reaches the arms and legs, and the ch’i moves through the sacrum to the top of the head; 3) listening to or feeling (ligamentous) strength, comprehension of (ligamentous strength), and perfect clarity (“spiritual power, or power without physical force”). (Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 75-81, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng; except Part 3, “perfect clarity” from "Master Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T'ai-Chi Ch'uan", Cheng Man-Ching trans. Douglas Wile, pg. 53) Again, relaxation through the suffocation response yields ease and the experience of the senses that go together to make up the feeling of place in awareness. That is to say, complete relaxation (1, above) brings out the feeling of place in awareness, and allows the necessity of breath to shift the placement of awareness to generate activity that displaces fascia behind the sacrum and the spine (2, above). Distinguishing ligamentous strength (as in 3, above) depends on the experience of reciprocal activity and stretch in the muscles and ligaments in response to the placement of awareness in the movement of breath. To me, comprehension of such strength is the sign of the concentration, as voluntary activity in the movement of breath is surrendered. I would say that “perfect clarity” refers to the surrender of action in the movement of breath, the cessation of the utilization of intent to act but not necessarily the cessation of action. Cheng Man-ching describes it this way: “The ch’i can mobilize the body, but you need not will the ch’i in order to move it. The spirit can carry the ch’i with it.” (Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 80, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

Along those lines (from AN III 303, Pali Text Society edition pg 218): ... Then another monk addressed the Blessed One, "I, too, develop mindfulness of death." ... "I think, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal.' This is how I develop mindfulness of death." When this was said, the Blessed One addressed the monks. "Whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for a day & night... for a day... for the interval that it takes to eat a meal... for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up four morsels of food, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedlessly. They develop mindfulness of death slowly for the sake of ending the effluents. "But whoever develops mindfulness of death, thinking, 'O, that I might live for the interval that it takes to swallow having chewed up one morsel of food... for the interval that it takes to breathe out after breathing in, or to breathe in after breathing out, that I might attend to the Blessed One's instructions. I would have accomplished a great deal' — they are said to dwell heedfully. They develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents. "Therefore you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell heedfully. We will develop mindfulness of death acutely for the sake of ending the effluents.' That is how you should train yourselves." Interesting that he offers both one swallow and one breath in or out--similar to his saying he returned to "that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever abide" (presumably "making self-surrender the object of thought") after he lectured, two different modalities in the use of the body and lungs.

I write on Dao Bums for myself--to offer something that is, at least to some degree, new to myself. The voice that I find in dialogue with other "bums" here on the site is generally more conversational than the voice that I find writing by myself, and that's helpful too. Gautama the Buddha described the intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing as something peaceful in itself, and a pleasant way of living too. He made this recommendation to the monks as an alternative to the meditation on the unlovely, which he had been teaching, and which resulted in the suicide of scores of monks. The moral of the story for me is, it doesn't have to be about enlightenment. It doesn't have to be about attainment, and methods to achieve something. I'm not disagreeing with Starjumper. Here's are the overview descriptions of the last three stages in the chapter "Stages of Development" from Cheng Man-Ching's "Thirteen Chapters" (the Wile translation, pg 56-58): 1) Listening to energy 2) Interpreting energy 3) Perfect clarity Similar in some respects to something Gautama mentioned in one of his lectures, about the stages of the outside, the inside, and the beautiful--not sure I quite have that right, memory fails and I'm not going to find the quote right now. However, the first stage in Cheng Man-Ching's description was relaxation, shoulders to hands, hips to feet, and sacrum to the crown of the head; the second was moving chi along the same lines. None of it could be forced, especially not chi from the sacrum to the crown of the head. That's about Tai Chi, but as far as I'm concerned it's about sitting the lotus too, or any form that depends on relaxation and sink. Not so much the attainment, all about relaxation and sink as the breath moves in, as the breath moves out.

Every sitting, along with the anxiety connected with the precariousness of posture. Or let me say, what I experience is the necessity to relax and calm down in conjunction with inhalation and exhalation, in order to allow zazen to sit zazen (to use Shunryu Suzuki's turn of phrase). You might like this, details of how I learned about the suffocation response and the death of a Zen teacher I admired. The precariousness for me is mostly about support for the lumbar curve, there from the 3rd lumber vertebrae to the sacrum. That's why my description of anatomy starts with the ilio-lumbar ligaments, and focuses on the mechanisms by which the fascia behind the lower back is displaced in support of the lumbar spine. The things that come forward for me when I sit now, I have arrived at through finding the spontaneous breath in the midst of activity, in particular in the midst of the activity that supports the lower back in the movement of breath. I don't know about anybody else, but for me that requires a recognition that I am staying out of suffocation, and allowing support to be realized of its own accord

At rest in the storm the storm of my own making bottoms up, ducklings

I second that, and I have some specifics. Let me be the first to say that grasping after specifics is not going to get it, and yet without the specifics my practice didn't seem to get off the ground. First, it's all gravity, so sung (relax) and ch'en (sink). Helpful to me lately to find gravity wherever my mind lands, and also good training in letting the mind move. Not to say mind at center isn't a great thing! Cheng Man-ching quotes the classics of Tai Chi: Relax the inner abdomen, then the whole body is light and agile. (Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 25, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng) Funny stuff, there's nothing really there to relax in the inner abdomen, and yet in my experience sometimes this is exactly the place to relax. Particulars. The movement of breath in or out shifts the accent in support for the lower spine between the ilio-lumbar ligaments that run vertically from the pelvis to the 4th lumbar vertebrae (in inhalation), and the ilio lumbar ligaments that run horizontally from the pelvis to the 5th lumbar vertebrae (in exhalation). The weight resting on the sit-bones shifts the accent in support for the sacrum between the sacro-spinous ligaments and the sacro-tuberous ligaments: The stretch of the ligaments generates activity in the muscles of the pelvis that alternates to relieve stretch on the ligaments, and that activity can carry into the quads and hamstrings right to the soles of the feet. The quads can stretch fascia between the quads and the ilio-tibial bands on the outside of the legs above the knees, adding stretch to the ilio-tibial bands and generating activity in the sartorius muscles: Stretch in the ilio-tibial bands encourages reciprocation in the sartorious muscles, triggering reciprocation in the tensor muscles (from the ilio-tibial bands to the front of the pelvis) and in the gluts (from the bands to the sacrum and to the lumbodorsal fascia behind the sacrum and the lower spine). The action in the tensors and gluts carries up into the muscles of the abdomen, especially where their fascial connections to the rectus muscles are of equal lengths (2" below the belly-button), and into the lower back, especially opposite the place where the abdominal fascial connections (to the rectus) are of equal length. There are two mechanisms that stretch the fascia behind the sacrum and the lower back to the rear, to support the lower spine. The first is that the extensor muscles behind the sacrum are enclosed by bone on three sides, so that when the muscles contract and bulk up, that bulk presses rearward on the facia and effects a stretch behind the sacrum. The second is that the pressure generated in the abdominal cavity presses rearward on the fascial sheet behind the lower back and effects a stretch behind the lower spine. My ability to relax and calm down in the lotus depends in part on my ability to realize the way that gravity can support my back in the movement of breath, and in part on my ability to just let the movement of breath be. That's how I sit the lotus. I had to relearn my posture, and that relearning is ongoing. How I came up with the science, is another story, but I think I've been pretty lucky. Of particular importance to me is the way that activity in the legs returns as stretch behind the sacrum and activity in the lower abdomen, activity that is connected with a pressure that shifts the fascia behind the lower spine slightly to the rear. Or to put it another way, "a deep release I experience in the legs, kua, that emanates up into the abdomen and prompts a deepening of sung and full body release."

I agree, Orion, and I've had the same experience--any posture is the place to start. That said, there's also this: In the recently published "Embracing Mind", Kobun Otogawa is quoted as saying he never had pain in the lotus (or just a trace, in his knees). In fact, he said he sat the lotus to stay out of pain. I once heard Kobun say, "Take your time with the lotus". I think what he meant by that was, take whatever time you need, but learn to sit the lotus without pain. (that's from here) For me, there's a lot involved in sitting the lotus. It's unquestionably a stretch, and relaxing into reciprocal activity generated in the the stretch, but it's also a particular opening to the senses. At least, that's my experience, and I'm good for 35 minutes either side now in the lotus without pain, and can sit 40 at home. That only took 50 years, from when I couldn't sit with my legs crossed in any position, but I'm hopeful that what I have written about my experience might shorten that time for others. And you're right again, sitting the lotus wasn't the biggest deal so far, but it's helpful in everyday life.

Very amazing, to read this thread again after nine years. Along the lines you describe, ion, may I offer something from my latest post: Recently I read a forum post by a piano teacher (and life coach), who said that it's hard to leave old habits behind because of muscle memory. I agree with him that there is muscle memory involved, but at least as far as old habits in sitting, there's also the panic of the suffocation response. Sooner or later, I begin to feel like the posture is affecting my ability to breathe, and there's a certain anxiety associated with that. Knowing about the suffocation response helps me to realize how much I need to emphasize relaxation, if I want to overcome old habits. Seated meditation has been described as "straightening the chest and sitting precariously". Precariousness in posture also gives rise to anxiety, yet if calm prevails, precariousness can bring forward the senses behind the feeling of place in awareness. If you're interested, you can find the rest here. As to what really goes on behind the tailbone and sacrum and along the spine, I hope I have some science here.

realizing self there is only this--relax, stay calm, let things go

The Secret is open mind present without abode sense actualized

Looks like the earliest representation of the Buddha by footprints was about 2nd century B.C.E.: I agree with Apech that at least the sermon and discipline volumes of the Tripitaka originated earlier. I know of at least one Zen teacher who was considered an expert in the forms of the Zendo, including the forms around the various offerings, but my understanding is that he always encouraged people who wanted to learn the forms not to hold too tightly to tradition (the teacher would be Kobun Chino Otogawa).

And all and all and then some--I pick myself up, I lay down again

Bit by bit, stones turn Good things come to those who wait Out of the ether

I confess, sometimes Dogen's use of negatives and double-negatives leaves me in the dust. I read Genjo Koan looking for positive and substantive sentences, and I came away with two and a half: "When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent." (tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi. Revised at San Francisco Zen Center, and later at Berkeley Zen Center) It's an interesting exercise, to read Dogen only for the sentences that are positive and substantive. On the subject of aching legs Buddhism, I finally attended a five-day sesshin last fall, at Jikoji. I discovered that at least for the sesshin I attended, they were sitting mostly 40 minutes, followed by walking, followed by 30 minutes. At one of the teas, I learned that the Los Angeles Zen Center sits mostly 35 minutes (although they open their sesshins with a 50-minute sitting). I offered at the tea that I understood Rinzai centers sit for 25 minutes, and no one seemed to be able to confirm or deny that. I do have a friend who sits 25's, and he says it's the same effect by the end of the day. I mentioned Shohaku Okumura and the 50-minute sitting they do at Antaiji--apparently they would sit 14 50-minute periods a day for a five-day sesshin every month?--and I was told Shohaku now sits in a chair, on account of his knees won't go there anymore. I did see him sitting in a chair for lecture at Berkeley, and I wondered about that. I was hoping to sit the whole sesshin at Jikoji in the lotus, alternating left and right, but I mostly ended up with the right leg on top (contrary to Dogen's instructions in Fukanzazengi) and almost never completed an entire 40 minute sitting that way. That surprised me, because I was sitting 40 at home, albeit not repeatedly. In the recently published "Embracing Mind", Kobun Otogawa is quoted as saying he never had pain in the lotus (or very little). In fact, he said he sat the lotus to stay out of pain. I think there is a way to do that, although I'm sure it helps to start really young, as he did. Here's the way I'm seeing: Turning to the Left, Turning to the Right, Following Up Behind Just thought I'd offer it up.