Mark Foote

rests in perfect peace moves with a celestial grace almost any cat

The social order that Gautama assumed doesn't seem to be reflected in the current age, I would agree with you that far. Begging was a part of monastic life, and with the exception of the remaining forest monks (who still observe the old rules) the acceptance of monetary donations and of work of all kinds to sustain the order and monasteries seems very generally accepted now. As to the map that Gautama drew to the cessation of intentional activity, that still appears to me to be applicable. I found a description online of the suffocation response, as a subject of scientific interest. The response apparently has the same symptoms as a panic attack, but it's an involuntary response to a lack of breath instead of to an anxiety. Navy seals apparently train to overcome the suffocation response through relaxation, that's how they can stay underwater for so long. The difficulty in any conveyance of Gautama's teaching is the requirement that a person experience the involuntary activity that lies on the other side of the suffocation response. Gautama described relaxation and calm in connection with in-breathing and out-breathing as a part of his way of living, and also the experience of ease and joy. The true significance of these things cannot be appreciated without familiarity in one form or another with the suffocation response, and through relaxation and calm with the witness of involuntary activity in the body and mind. I would say that Gautama's map (of the cessation of voluntary activity) had holes where he didn't have the science, but the sense he made with what he had is remarkable.

moments beyond self the non-direction of mind caught in a spring breeze

be one with water rolling out and rolling up moments beyond self

not from suffering is the truth made clear, but from moments beyond self

or the bare bodkin the ancient exit from pain not from suffering

What more could you want-- something from the inside out beyond the senses

So we have literally hundreds of Mahayana sutras but no school or sect to connect them to. How can this be? The answer is likely very simple. There was probably simply not much to early Mahayana apart from these texts. What the evidence collected over the last century and a half suggests is that early Indian Mahayana was primarily a textual movement, focused on the relevation, preaching, and dissemination of Mahayana sutras, that developed within, and never really departed from, traditional Buddhist social and institutional structures. ("Early Indian Mahayana Buddhism II: New perspectives", Drewes) I have read that monasteries in China were open to adherents of any faith, but I have to say that in the traditional Buddhism of India and Southeast Asia, there were rules concerned with how to distinguish between what was the teaching and what was not. The first schism was all about trying to reconcile what was the teaching and what was not. I wonder where exactly the Chinese monks of 2nd and 3rd centuries CE found adherents of the traditional sutra and vinaya living alongside adherents of the new sutras: The practices that Mahayana sutras recommend most frequently and enthusiastically are creatively conceived methods that they depict as making it possible to attain Buddhahood quickly and easily. Dozens of sutras, for instance, present easy practices, such as hearing the names of certain Buddhas or bodhisattvas, maintaining Buddhist precepts, and listening to, memorizing, and copying sutras, that they claim can enable rebirth in the pure lands Abhirati and Sukhavati, where it is said to be possible to easily acquire the merit and knowledge necessary to become a Buddha in as little as one lifetime. ...The practices that Mahayana sutras recommend far and away more frequently than all the others, however, ... are ones involving the use of Mahayana sutras themselves. (Ibid) Makes the origins of Chan in China seem especially strange and wonderful. Comes a man with a copy of the Lankavatara Sutra, who founds a school that claims the lotus posture as the seal of the authentic teaching, and sudden enlightenment as the way. Where did the emphasis on these elements come from--are they anywhere to be found, in the Mahayana sutras? Drewes points to a tendency of the Mahayana texts to claim a more immediate path to enlightenment, but that's still a long way from sudden enlightenment. Fuxi was a contemporary or predecessor of Bodhidharma, and a master respected by the emperor. At least in his person, Chan/Zen was already in China, but the robe and bowl and the genius of the fourth Patriach in working the land to provide for hundreds of monks apart from patronage secured a future for Zen (maybe?). Embodying a text--hear it, see it, gain it, something like that?

I did see the links for "Early Indian Mahayana Buddhism", "I" and "II" by Drewes. From "I" (where Drewes attempts to refute association of Mahayana with a strict forest-dwelling tradition, pg 61): The Aksobhyavuha and larger Sukhavativyuha sutras... each present very easy practices, such as merely listening to the sutra, or thinking of particular Buddhas, that they claim can enable one to be reborn in special, luxurious 'pure lands' where one will be able to make easy and rapid progress on the bodhisattva path and attain Buddhahood after as little as one lifetime. In another passage, the Astasahasrika depicts the great bodhisattva Dharmodgata as having 'skillful means' that enable him to maintain his moral purity even though he lives in a palace in the middle of a city and has sex with 6,800,000 women. The Suramgamasamadhi Sutra also repeatedly makes the point that avoidance of sensual pleasures is not important for bodhisattvas. (underlining mine) I hear an echo in these passages of the first schism in the Buddhist order, over whether or not an arhant could be seduced by a succubus. Drewes argues that the writing and preaching of the first "Mahayana" texts was not a consequence of the original schism, not an off-shoot of the Mahasamghikas, in large part because he does not see the authors of the Mahayana texts and their followers as ever having disavowed the earlier teachings. I think he has an argument that the sudden emergence, possibly as early as 1st century B.C., of texts and preachers basing their legitimacy on claims of possessing other-worldly, later revelations of the Buddha was a distinct phenomena, but I wonder if what A. K. Warder described as the logical consequences of the first schism among the Mahasamghikas didn't play a part. Sounds like "Mahayana" was largely the result of Buddhist revivalist preachers, who were willing to accept the claim of divine authorship with regard to a recent text or texts (many of which texts advocated strongly for donations), and stump for the faith. Makes me think of Luther and the Protestant church, and 500 years later the Book of Mormon. What I like is the awareness that Yuanwu, author of the "Blue Cliff Record" in 12th century China, shows of the Pali sutta teachings--likewise the awareness that Rujing (Dogen's teacher) shows. At the same time, they and the majority of Zen/Chan teachers are concerned to describe in the most immediate terms what it means to penetrate the suffocation response and experience involuntary, ongoing activity of the body and mind. They don't mention Gautama's setting up of mindfulness, with its emphasis on in-breathing and out-breathing--why should they, that was old history (but Dogen evidently missed that part of the library). Coincidentally, that same couple of centuries in China saw some of the first manuals of seated meditation, since Gautama--so I've read. Dogen took one back to Japan, and his first work in Japan incorporated it (Fukanzazengi).

Warder, from Wikipedia: Anthony Kennedy Warder (September 8, 1924 - January 8, 2013) was a scholar of Indology, mostly in Buddhist studies and related fields, such as the Pāḷi and Sanskrit languages. He wrote 15 books and numerous articles. He held the title of Professor Emeritus of Sanskrit in the School of East Asian Studies in the University of Toronto.[1] Warder spent several years in India exploring manuscript libraries in connection with his work on Kavya, a literary style created by Ashvaghosha in the 2nd century AD. He also published on the subject of Indian Philosophy of all the religious schools in India. Warder studied Sanskrit and Pali at the University of London (SOAS). His doctoral thesis, later published under the title Pali Metre: A Contribution to the History of Indian Literature (Pali Text Society, 1967), was supervised by John Brough. He was active for some years in the affairs of the Pali Text Society, which also published his first book, Introduction to Pali (1963; 3rd revised edition, 2005). In this textbook, Warder took the then revolutionary approach of treating Pali as an independent language, not just a derivative of Sanskrit. Warder's first academic appointment was at the University of Edinburgh in 1955. He joined the University of Torontoin 1963, where he was to remain until his retirement in 1990. As Chairman of the Department of East Asian Studies he built up a programme in Sanskrit and South Asian Studies, which for some years existed as a separate Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies.

Do you have sources that dispute A. K. Warder's account in Indian Buddhism, pg 211? We seem led to the conclusion that the two parties were less far apart than at first sight they appear to be, except on the first ground. The Sthaviravada were categorical that an arhant was by nature beyond the reach of any possible seduction; the Mahasamgha allowed an arhant to be seduced in a dream. Between these opinons no compromise could be found, in spite all the Buddha's injunctions (in the Vinaya) on the reconciliation of dissident views. The majority of the assembly held that an involuntary happening was no indication of whether one was an arhant or not, and thereby no doubt made it possible for more persons to be recognized as arhants. The minority, which included, apparently, most of the elders, refused to countenance such a weakness, such an evident attachment to the world. No compromise having been reached, the two parties separated and became two schools of Buddhism. Afterwards they gradually came to disagree on several more grounds, partly through working out the implications of their positions. In particular the nature of the Buddha was reconsidered. In the Tripitaka he is not apparently distinguished from any other arhant, except that he had the exceptional genius necessary to discover the truths unaided whilst the others were helped by his guidance. The Sthaviravada remained closer to this conception, although they gradually attributed a higher status to the Buddha, eventually complete 'omniscience' (sarvajnata), especially in their more popular propaganda. The Mahasamgha, on the other hand, having relaxed or at least not made more stringent the conditions for an arhant, found it desirable to make a clear distinction in the case of the Buddha: he was a being of quite a different nature, far above other human beings or perhaps not really a human being at all... A. K. Warder does go into his sources some, and apparently compared several extant versions of the Canon to the extent he was able, including Chinese, Tibetan, and Southeast Asian versions. Not sure from where he drew the historical info, but he spent time in India, and was involved with the Pali Text Society.

'cross the Milky Way there's only a place to sit, where the water's good

Actually, I feel it before physical contact, and try to balance what I'm experiencing in contact with an awareness of it. Something like that. Dancing when contact is possible inspires me to stretch and breathe as naturally as possible, and more so dancing with contact that is spontaneous and continuous (good god!). Many nights staggering the mile home past midnight, many good friends and some total strangers that I feel I share something special with. The dark sun part has only entered in on the dance floor so far, probably because of the extent and duration of the simultaneous stretch and relaxation. Not there in the five day sesshin I did last fall, but the lotus is where I learn how to make changes that bring less exertion and more relaxation. Reminds me of something Kobun Otogawa said in response to a question one time--something like, "when we get up from sitting, that's all for fun!" Dancing is sure like that for me, almost like a place where I can put the pedal to the floor with everything I've experienced on the cushion and leap beyond. May I offer a song!

I think this is the passage that the author of Lankavatara was paraphrasing: Monks, there are these two views: view of becoming, and view of annihilation. Monks, whatever recluses and Brahmins adhere to the view of becoming, have come under the view of becoming, cleave to the view of becoming, these are obstructed from the view of annihilation. Monks, whatever recluses and Brahmins adhere to the view of annihilation, have come under the view of annihilation, cleave to the view of annihilation, these are obstructed from the view of becoming. Monks, whatever recluses or Brahmins do not comprehend as they really are the rise and fall of, and satisfaction in, and peril of these two views and the escape from them, these have attachment, these have aversion, these have confusion, these have craving, these have grasping, these are unintelligent, these are yielding and hindered, these delight in impediments, these are not utterly freed from birth, ageing, dying, grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation, despair--these are not utterly free from anguish, I say. But whatever recluses or Brahmins comprehend as they really are the rise and fall of, and satisfaction in, and peril of these two views and the escape from them, these are without attachment, these are without aversion, these are without confusion, these are without craving, these are without grasping, these are intelligent, these are unyielding and unhindered, these do not delight in impediments, these are utterly freed from birth, ageing, dying, grief, sorrow, suffering, lamentation, despair--these are utterly free from anguish, I say. (Culasihanadasuttsa "Lesser Discourse on the Lion's Roar", Pali Text Society MN I pg 87) Gautama continues the analysis in this vein: Monks, there are these four (kinds of) grasping. What are the four? The grasping of sense-pleasures, the grasping of view, the grasping of rule and custom, the grasping of the theory of self.... Looks like the author of Lankavatara summarized "escape from them" in Gautama's treatment with "in either case they imagine emancipation where there is no emancipation." I feel a little better about Lankavatara. Thanks, Tom.

Believe I misquoted David-Neel. In "Secret Oral Teachings", she gives "extinguished" as the literal meaning of nirvana. I think I got "blown out" from "The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary" (Rhys Davids and Stede, pg 362): Nibbana--Etymology. Although nir+va "to blow" is already in use in the Vedic period, we do not find its distinctive application until later and more commonly in popular use, where "va" is fused with "vr" in this sense, viz. in application to the extinguishing of a fire, which is the prevailing Buddhist conception of the term. Only in the older texts do we find references to a simile of the wind and the flame; but by far the most common metaphor and that which governs the whole idea of nibbana finds expression in the putting out of fire by other means of extinction than by blowing, which latter process rather tends to incite the fire than to extinguish it. ... I continue to like thinking of nirvana as a state of being where the fires are "blown out" by wellness in the natural movement of breath. Also, I should clarify that although Gautama never expressly coupled the setting up of mindfulness with the attainment of the meditative states, he did say that he himself could intentionally induce all the states (sorry I don't have the reference on that). I'm guessing that doesn't apply to the final cessation of perception and cessation, the attainment synonymous with Gautama's enlightenment, which cessation involves the realization that all that is constructed or thought out is impermanent. I apologize for my mischaracterization of the teaching, saying that "he never expressly stated that the meditative states can be attained by any intentional activity". I do think it's a case of aiming at one thing in order to bring about another, as when he associates "making self-surrender the object of thought" with "laying hold" of concentration. He also speaks of the extension of the mind of friendliness, of compassion, of sympathy, and of equanimity, saying that the "excellence of the heart's release" with regard to each of the latter three corresponds with the induction of the first three of the immaterial meditative states. I would say he exercised his faculties and the activities ceased, so he did have some intent there, but not specifically for the attainment of meditative states. I gotta say, words put into the mouth of Gautama by later authors are not actually the words of the one traditionally regarded as "Buddha". Picky, picky, picky. Gautama would usually add in the cases of "both being and non-being" and "neither being nor non-being", in such a discussion--but I can't cite chapter and verse.

I think Alexandra David-Neel translated "nirvana" as literally meaning "blown out". I like her translation because it intimates the role of breath in the process. On dependent causation: “Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are anguish. Not to get what one desires is anguish. In short, the five groups based on grasping are anguish.” (AN I 176, Vol I pg 160; Pali “dukkha”: “anguish” in MN, "ill” in AN original above) So dependent causation ends in grasping after self in the five groups, and that is identically to suffer. As far as I can figure, the ignorance that gives rise to intentional activity of speech, body, and mind can only be said to have ceased when intentional activity of speech, body, and mind cease as a consequence. The meditative states Gautama described are states where intentional activities cease, and he specified that activities with regard to speech cease in the first of the material states, the activities with regard to the body (with regard to inhalation and exhalation) cease in the fourth, and the activities with regard to the mind (with regard to perception and sensation) cease after the fourth of the non-material states. He never expressly stated that the meditative states can be attained by any intentional activity, what a surprise. The passages regarding discrimination from Lankavatara--I guess the idea is to encourage people to somehow kick it up a notch? I think I prefer the Zen notion of the person of no rank, going in and out of the gates of the face--at least that emphasizes a selfless process, along the lines of Gautama's way of living. Linji addressed the assembly, saying, "There is a true person of no rank. He is always leaving and entering the gates of your face. You beginners who have not witnessed him: Look! Look!"Thereupon a monk asked, "How about this true person of no rank?"Linji got down from the seat and grabbed him. The monk hesitated, and Linji pushed him away, saying, "This true person of no rank; what a shit-stick he is!" (from here)

five-seven-five here a rule to be broken, sure-- the weeds bright green, spring

you'll find you are more when death is a given, like five-seven-five here

Equanimity the wind is howling, stars bright will we see morning

I can't say I have any experience with chakras. Here's Gautama's short advice on developing psychic powers: So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front. As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front; as below, so above: as above, so below: as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day. Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy. (Sanyutta-Nikaya, text V 263, Pali Text Society volume 5 pg 235, ©Pali Text Society) If you're interested, you can read my expansion here. The last line in particular I think might be relevant, particularly as the whole methodology is being prescribed as a means to develop psychic power. This is some of what I had to say about it in my expansion: “Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.” As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid) that flexes and extends with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral fluid. The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”).

Back at you. I wasn't talking about the tango, the waltz, or the polka. Free-style freaking in my experience is not about learned dance moves, it's an ability to feel someone on the inside. It's two people falling upright, together yet the effort is individual. Sometimes when I have been really close to someone this way, I have felt like there was a dark sun that happened to be inside me, but inside someone else too simultaneously. Seemed like the dark sun I felt might be related to the light under discussion here, but I have no idea.

Can I gain karma? good and evil aside, no. my head is tilted

A dark sun, maybe?--I've felt something like that sometimes, dancing with a partner.

I'm Apocalypse meet my four horsemen--or not the weeds bright green, spring