Mark Foote

Fascinating, mifepristone blocks progesterone. Meanwhile: Why does the presence of mistletoe —a parasitic plant that roots in oaks and other host trees— confer the right to kiss whoever you’re with? The answer occurred to John Lee, MD, a family practitioner in Mill Valley, back in 1967. Lee was then editing the Marin Medical Society Bulletin and on the lookout for topics for his monthly column. He came across an article in a Harvard alumni publication describing the pagan rituals of the Celts who lived in the British Isles in the millennium before Christ. For their winter solstice celebration, the Celtic priests —Druids— would collect berries from trees bearing mistletoe. Coincidentally, Lee had just read an item in the Journal of the American Medical Association stating that mistletoe contains a compound very similar to progesterone. He had an insight: “The berries were life in the middle of that cold European winter, when everything else was bleak and apparently lifeless. The Druids called mistletoe ‘a gift from the gods.’ They would take these berries and mix them with hot mead [an alcohol drink made from fermented honey] and they would all have a weeklong party where gifts were exchanged and they would celebrate that the sun was going to return and winter would not mean the end of the world. “When a woman takes progesterone and then quits, a period is induced. I realized the mead laced with mistletoe would decrease everyone’s inhibitions and increase everyone’s libido for their four- or five-day party. It was free sex! And after four or five days of celebration they would quit. All the women would have their periods, and no babies would occur. No wonder they called it ‘a gift from the Gods!” Lee compares the discovery that mistletoe prevented pregnancy to the discovery that limes prevented scurvy —a major advance in the annals of medicine. “The sailors didn’t know it was Vitamin C. The Celts didn’t know it was progesterone. They just knew it worked.” Lee hypothesized that kissing under the mistletoe is a form of “symbolic sexual promiscuity” going back to the days when the berries served as a birth-control device during pagan winter solstice parties (the persecuted Christians having scheduled their own holidays to coincide with existing celebrations). Lee’s editorial evoked no response from the readers of the Marin Medical Society Bulletin —maybe they were disturbed by the juxtaposition of Christmas and sex— and never made it into the general lore. (The Meaning of Mistletoe) That topical progesterone can be good for the health of men and women in the age of xenoestrogenic compounds everywhere, a supremely unpopular opinion among the medical professionals, owing to the fact that malpractice is defined as not doing what everybody else is doing (and has nothing to do with science). Progesterone that is synthesized but molecularly identical to human progesterone, never a national test in this country, because it can't be patented (the Australians have done some testing, particularly with regard to breast cancer). The progestins, which have been tweaked by a molecule so they can be patented, pages of side-effects in the physician's desk reference--you doctor won't even know you aren't talking about progestins, if you mention progesterone, such is the medical profession's level of education on the subject.

Nisargadatta was only trying to point to the horse, not the cart. So he left a little dung on the road... How to get someone to focus on the placement of consciousness by necessity in the movement of breath--can't point to the movement of breath, can't point to the frailty in the structure of the lower spine: There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) My attempt: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) Whip the presence of mind to stay awake with the location of consciousness, even as that location shifts and moves, and discover that the activity of the body in the movement of breath can occur solely as a function of the free location of consciousness. The cart moves automatically, as the horse shifts or moves.

When the Ch'an master Ta-chi of Chiang-hsi was studying with the Ch'an master Ta-hui of Nan-yüeh, after intimately receiving the mind seal, he always sat in meditation. Once Nan-yüeh went to Ta-chi and said, "Worthy one, what are you figuring to do, sitting there in meditation? Chiang-hsi said, 'I'm figuring to make a Buddha." At this point, Nan-yüeh took up a tile and began to rub it on a stone. At length, Ta-chi asked, "Master, what are you doing?" Nan-yüeh said, "I'm polishing this to make a mirror." Ta-chi said, "How can you produce a mirror by polishing a tile?" Nan-yüeh replied, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?" Ta-chi asked, "Then, what is right?" Nan-yüeh replied, "When a man is driving a cart, if the cart doesn't go, should he beat the cart or beat the ox?" (from commentary on "The Lancet of Seated Meditation", "Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation", Bielefeldt, 1st ed., p 191--available on Terebess) What does it mean, to "beat the ox"? In a piece I wrote recently, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century explained--here's that explanation, and the rest of my write: You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself. (Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833) “The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote: Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. (“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176) That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”. I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote: When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. (“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi) Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body. Dogen continued: When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… (ibid) “When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body. I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough. ("Take the Backward Step")

Ch'an Slogans and the Formation of Ch'an Identity Individually, the four slogans are found in works dating before the Sung, but they do not appear together as a four part series of expressions until well into the period when they are attributed to Bodhidharma in the Tsu-t'ing shih-yüan (Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs) in 1108. Even then, their acceptance was not without controversy. Mu-an, the compiler of the Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs, remarked contemptuously: "Many people mistake the meaning of 'do not establish words and letters.' They speak frequently of abandoning the scriptures and regard silent sitting as Ch'an. They are truly the dumb sheep of our school." In reality, three of the slogans- "do not establish words and letters"; "directly point to the human mind"; "see one's nature and become a Buddha"- were well established as normative Ch'an teaching by the beginning of the Sung. The status of the fourth slogan, "a special transmission outside the scriptures," as an interpretation of the true meaning of "do not establish words and letters" (pu li wen-tzu, literally "no establish words-letters") was the subject of continued controversy. "Seeing one's nature" was an old idea in China that was promoted by Tao-sheng (355-434), a disciple of Kumarajiva. Drawing from Mahayana doctrine, Tao-sheng advocated the notion of an inherent Buddha-nature in everyone. The full phrase chien-hsing ch'eng-fo ("see one's nature and become a Buddha") first appeared in a commentary to the Nirvâna sûtra, in a statement attributed to Seng-lang prior to the T'ang dynasty. The slogans "do not establish words and letters" and "directly point to the human mind" became common parlance in Ch'an circles by the end of the T'ang period. The first use of the phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" (chiao-wai pieh-ch'uan) that can be documented with historical certainty is in the Tsu-t'ang chi (Collection of the Patriarch's Hall), compiled in 952. The phrase is also included in a "tomb-inscription" of Lin-chi I-hsüan (?-866), attributed to Lin-chi's disciple, Yen-chao, appended to the end of the Lin-chi lu, the record of Lin-chi's teachings. The historical authenticity of this inscription as the work of Lin-chi's disciple is highly dubious, as the Rinzai scholar Yanagida Seizan has pointed out. The connection of the phrase "a special transmission outside the scriptures" with the Lin-chi lu (Record of Lin-chi) is highly suggestive, however, of a Ch'an identity that developed in the Lin-chi lineage during the Sung. While the Lin-chi lu professes to be the record of Lin-chi's words and deeds as recorded by his disciples, the current form of the text dates from an edition issued in 1120. The beginning of the twelfth century is also the time when the slogan "a special teaching outside the scriptures" was mentioned in the list of Ch'an slogans attributed to the Ch'an patriarch Bodhidharma in the Collection from the Garden of the Patriarchs, mentioned above. The association of this slogan with Lin-chi and Bodhidharma was the culmination of a process through which the identity of Ch'an was transformed by members of the Lin-chi lineage. (from "THE DISPUTED PLACE OF "A SPECIAL TRANSMISSION" OUTSIDE THE SCRIPTURES" IN CH'AN", by Albert Welter, Associate Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Winnipeg; https://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/HistoricalZen/A_Special_Transmission.htm#:~:text=The first use of the,Hall)%2C compiled in 952.)

I think my last thread garnered exactly zero comments, silent thunder. That's also been the fate of the original topic post here, apart from stirling's comments. I apologize. The topic of this thread is applying the Pali instructions for the initial concentrations, and I offered my take on the instructions for the first concentration, plus a link for my take on the rest. In the conversation with stirling, I wrote about my experience of the basics: ... laying hold of one-pointedness is the coordination of activity in the movement of breath by the free location of consciousness. That's different from activity in the movement of breath solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, yet both depend on the free location of consciousness. The question I've had for a lot of years is how to practice the transition, yet that is precisely Gautama's teaching with regard to the first four concentrations and the sign of the concentration--at least, as far as I can tell. To that statement, stirling replied: I know that this is your theory, but it has nothing to do with the jhanas. He also wrote: I still think you are confusing instruction on the Jhanas, which is a very specific set of practices, with general meditation. They are NOT the same, nor are they interchangeable, IMHO. These are most excellent comments, and I'm sorry they are buried in the thread. Maybe I should have titled the thread, "Are the Pali instructions on concentration, instructions on zazen?" I did cite Shunryu Suzuki: Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages. (“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (ibid) Stirling wrote: Just sitting is just sitting to me. Once mind drops out, it should be free of any contrived ideas or activity about what you are doing. And I responded: Ceasing the exercise of volition while mindful of inhalation and exhalation only occurs when the activity of inhalation and exhalation is solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. That's where the thread stands.

Here's the first part of a post I wrote recently, on my own site: stirling said: First jhana is concentration on the sensation of piti. There is still thought. I don't think it is possible that thought and one-pointedness co-exist. Gautama equated “right concentration” with “one-pointedness of mind”: And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components, this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments. (MN III 71, Pali Text Society vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; emphasis added) That implies that “one-pointedness of mind” is present in any “right concentration”, including the first. There are also sermons where Gautama spoke of “one-pointedness” in conjunction with the first concentration: Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought initial and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (SN V 198, Pali Text Society vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan; Horner’s “initial” substituted for Woodward’s “directed”) I would say that one-pointedness depends in part on the sense of gravity, and that along with a sense of gravity comes a feeling of momentum. That feeling of momentum can underlie a train of thought, so that one-pointedness can in effect be rejoined as the thoughts conclude, rather than re-initiated. If Gautama is to be believed, thoughts don’t cease in concentration, even with the final concentration (MN III 121; 108-109). What does cease is volition in thinking, beginning in the first concentration with volition in the formulation of speech, and ending in the final concentration with volition in the actions of feeling and perceiving. As might be expected with the cessation of volition in speech, thought in the first concentration comes out of a particular necessity: … the thought comes out of necessity in the free placement of attention in the movement of breath. When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention draws out thoughts initial and sustained, and brings on the stages of concentration… (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) Gautama described the feeling of the first concentration with a metaphor about a “bath-ball”: … just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. (Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) I’ve written about the “bath-ball”: If I were kneading soap powder into a ball in a copper vessel, I would have one hand kneading soap and one hand on the vessel. The press of the hand kneading soap would find something of an opposite pressure from the hand holding the vessel, even if the bottom of the vessel were resting on the ground. More particularly: … the exercise becomes in part the distinction of the direction of turn that I’m feeling at the location of awareness… that distinction allows the appropriate counter from everything that surrounds the place of awareness. I would say that gravity and handedness (I’m right-handed) are the source of my feeling of outward force at the location of awareness, and the activity of the muscles of posture in response to the stretch of ligaments is the source of the counter. Omori Sogen, a Rinzai Zen teacher, spoke about centrifugal and centripetal forces connected with seated meditation: Thus, by means of the equilibrium of the centrifugal and the centripetal force, the whole body is brought to a state of zero and spiritual power will pervade the whole body intensely. (“An Introduction to Zen Training”, Omori Sogen, p 61) (Common Ground; “metaphor” in place of “analogy”) I’ve also written about Gautama’s choice of words in the second half of his “bath-ball” metaphor: Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused. (ibid) My experience of “zest and ease” (Pali “piti” and “sukha”) depends on my experience of the senses connected with balance, particularly the sense of gravity: If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease. The feeling of ease I get is accompanied by a feeling of clarity, a clarity that has a certain energy. I would guess that energy is Gautama’s “zest”. ("To Enjoy Our Life") Gautama said: … a good (person] reflects thus: “Lack of desire even for the attainment of the first meditation has been spoken of by [me]; for whatever (one) imagines it to be, it is otherwise” [Similarly for the second, third, and fourth initial meditative states, and for the attainments of the first four further meditative states]. (MN III 42-45, Pali Text Society Vol III p 92-94) I go on to write about the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th initial concentrations on my site: https://zenmudra.com/applying-the-pali-instructions-anm/ As I say at the close of the piece, just let me know if there’s anything I can clarify.

The lines now read: On The Dao Bums forum site, someone wrote: and: The “Dao Bums” member continued: Thanks. I think it actually reads better. Brassington could be talking about the same thing I'm talking about, when I say: laying hold of one-pointedness is the coordination of activity in the movement of breath by the free location of consciousness. Some background for you, as to how I arrive at that: You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself. (Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833) “The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote: Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. (“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176) That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”. I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote: When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. (“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi) Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body. Dogen continued: When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… (ibid) “When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body. ("Take the Backward Step") I don't think it's useful to talk about the breath becoming subtle, though. Useful is to talk about the placement of attention by necessity in the movement of breath, and the free location of consciousness. Yes. But again: Ceasing the exercise of volition while mindful of inhalation and exhalation only occurs when the activity of inhalation and exhalation is solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them). (The Case of the Suffocating Woman”, posted on Slate Star Codex April 5, 2017 by Scott Alexander; http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/; commenter “liz”, April 5, 2017 at 10:41 am) I had occasion to reread all the posts on my own website since 2010, a couple of years back--I was abandoning my hand-written PHP site, in favor of WordPress. Some of the posts were border-line, but in the end, I kept them all. I think there's a consistency, more of a filling in than an evolving--how it seems to me. Thanks for your responses, stirling. They really have been helpful to me, even if I disagree with you about a good many things. Ha ha!

If you are not happy with the things I quoted, and you think "stirling" is too identifying, then I'll take steps to anonymize the quotes. My assumption was that "stirling" would not identify you, but I haven't tried to look you up! Maybe I can address some of your responses about "one--pointedness", here. If the Noble Eightfold Path's "Right Samadhi" is necessary for "one-pointedness" then I would have to be "formless", since the only way to perfect the Noble Eightfold Path is enlightenment. Perhaps it is a broader term and does simply mean uninterrupted focus. Regarding the path: As to this… right view comes first. And how … does right view come first? Right purpose… proceeds from right view, right speech proceeds from right purpose; right action proceeds from right speech; right mode of livelihood proceeds from right action; right endeavor proceeds from right mode of livelihood; right mindfulness proceeds from right endeavor; right concentration proceeds from right mindfulness; right knowledge proceeds from right concentration; right freedom proceeds from right knowledge. In this way the learner’s course is possessed of eight components, the perfected one’s of ten components. (MN III 117, 76; Pali Text Society Vol III p 119; emphasis added) That says that the "the perfected one" still has a course to follow, just it's a ten-fold course instead of eight-fold. The "Access to Insight" site makes statements without attribution--the one about the jhanas among them. That's not from the Pali sermons. In a sense you're right, laying hold of one-pointedness is the coordination of activity in the movement of breath by the free location of consciousness. That's different from activity in the movement of breath solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness, yet both depend on the free location of consciousness. The question I've had for a lot of years is how to practice the transition, yet that is precisely Gautama's teaching with regard to the first four concentrations and the sign of the concentration--at least, as far as I can tell. You might like my treatment of "actualizing the fundamental point", from Genjo Koan ("Take the Backward Step"). I make the distinction between "coordination of activity by" and "solely by virtue of" based on Dogen's statements, there. You reference Anguttara Nikaya 9.36--had to google, but I found the sermon--the sermon does not number the further concentrations, as you have. I find it intriguing that Gautama didn't number the further states, significant in some way but I can't say what. You wrote: I still think you are confusing instruction on the Jhanas, which is a very specific set of practices, with general meditation. They are NOT the same, nor are they interchangeable, IMHO. From your lineage: Of course, to have good shikantaza, we have preparatory zazen. You know, from old, old time, you know, we have that technical term, konpunjo. Konpunjo means “to enter,” you know. That is started from Theravada practice, you know. To prepare for the first stage or second stage or third stage, they practice some special practice. Those practice is not the practice of the first stage or second stage or third stage, but to prepare for those stages. (“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (ibid) As I wrote in "Applying the Pali Instructions": Ceasing the exercise of volition while mindful of inhalation and exhalation only occurs when the activity of inhalation and exhalation is solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. That cessation is exactly "just sitting", to me. You wrote: The entire field of experience is ultimately awareness, so it rests everywhere. I can look in between breaths, but it isn't any kind of special location. If it was enlightenment it would persist even during breath, or anything else. In any moment feeling and perceiving are constant, though the experience of a "self" that perceives them is gone. I haven't experienced the conscious cessation of volition in feeling and perceiving. I do write about the first of the further states, here. The rest I can't really claim to have known directly. Did you get this far in my post?-- Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully. ( “Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46) Complete relinquishment of volitive activity in the body involves letting go of the activity of breath while yet conscious of the need to inhale and exhale. That can feel like letting go of life itself. The location of consciousness in the third concentration is the place from which to “advance one step further”. That location may shift and move, yet that is the place where automatic activity in the movement of breath can be engendered solely by virtue of the location of consciousness. That's one of the reasons I thanked you in my last remark on the "very unpopular opinions" thread (Posted Friday at 02:21 PM (edited)). Very helpful, for me.

The plainer English version: Applying the Pali Instructions "stirling" appears twice! (thank you, from the bottom of my heart /\ )

Something you might like, manitou: What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said I recently had occasion to reread the lecture “Breathing” in “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind”. Out of curiosity, I then looked for a transcript of the lecture in the Shunryu Suzuki archives set up by David Chadwick. There are differences between the two versions. Here are the last three sentences from “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind”: So when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated on your breathing. This kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. Without this experience, this practice, it is impossible to attain absolute freedom. (“Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind”, edited by Trudy Dixon, Weatherhill 1971 p 27) Here are the same sentences from the transcript, with the differences highlighted: So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. Without this experience, or this practice, it is impossible to attain the absolute freedom. (“Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added) The transcript is annotated, “(Not Verbatim) Los Altos box title: Swinging Door”. There’s a sentence that’s omitted in the “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” version: “if so, how you should use your mind is quite clear”. The transcript may not be verbatim, but I would guess that Suzuki did say something along these lines. There’s a particular transition in zazen that I believe Suzuki was referring to. Here’s a description I made of that transition: The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (Common Ground) The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read the transcript. Chadwick later confirmed that the transcript was verbatim.

Ok, but seriously! The way I've heard that teaching applied is, only when a person recognizes that they are a helpless sinner who is unable to do right, and takes Jesus within, can they let Jesus do right through them. Here's a description I'm currently finishing up of the transition from the third initial concentration to the fourth, and the leap of faith and action solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness is a close parallel to the practice with Jesus above: Gautama described the third concentration as like “water-lilies” of three different colors in a pond, lilies that never break the surface of the water: … free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lilies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease. (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III p 18-19) The water-lilies I believe represent the influence of the legs, arms, and head on activity in the abdominals, and consequently on stretch in the ligaments of the spine. The feeling of a combined influence of the extremities in the abdomen could be said to be like lilies of three colors floating under the surface of some body of water. The exact influence of each extremity remains unclear, yet with a sense of gravity and a stretch in particular ligaments, I can arrive at an ease. Gautama declared that the sages abide in the third concentration. I remind myself that the activity of the body in inhalation and exhalation tends toward coordination by the free placement of consciousness, and look for ease. Things can shift from activity of the body coordinated by the free placement of consciousness, to activity that takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. Here’s Gautama’s description of the fourth concentration: Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… (Pali Text Society AN III 25-28 Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) The transition to activity solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can involve a leap of faith, as Dogen pointed out: Suppose that you have climbed to the top of a hundred-foot pole, and are told to let go and advance one step further without holding bodily life dear. In such a situation, if you say that you can practice the Buddha-Way only when you are alive, you are not really following your teacher. Consider this carefully. (“Shobogenzo-zuimonki: Sayings of Eihei Dogen Zenji, recorded by Koun Ejo”, 1-13, tr Shohaku Okumura, Soto-Shu Shumucho p 45-46) Complete relinquishment of volitive activity in the body involves letting go of the activity of breath while yet conscious of the need to inhale and exhale. That can feel like letting go of life itself. The location of consciousness in the third concentration is the place from which to “advance one step further”. That location may shift and move, yet that is the place where automatic activity in the movement of breath can be engendered solely by virtue of the location of consciousness. There's more to faith in Jesus, I know, yet I believe the parallel is still there in the first of the further states: There’s a third line about actualization in “Genjo Koan”: Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent. (“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]", tr. Tanahashi) Kobun Chino Otogawa gave a practical example of the actualization in that third line, even though he wasn’t talking about “Genjo Koan” at the time: You know, sometimes zazen gets up and walks around. (Lecture at S. F. Zen Center, 1980’s) Activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness can sometimes get up and walk around, without any thought to do so. Action like that resembles action that takes place through hypnotic suggestion, but unlike action by hypnotic suggestion, action by virtue of the free location of consciousness can turn out to be timely after the fact. When action turns out to accord with future events in an uncanny way, the source of that action may well be described as “the inconceivable”. I have found that zazen is more likely to “get up and walk around” when the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of friendliness and compassion, an extension beyond the boundaries of the senses. Gautama the Buddha described such an extension: [One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (MN I 38, Pali Text Society Vol I p 48) Gautama said that “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of the mind of compassion was the first of the further concentrations, a concentration called “the infinity of ether” (SN V 118-120, Pali Text Society Vol V p 100-102). The Oxford English Dictionary offers some quotes about “ether”: They [sc. the Brahmins] thought the stars moved, and the planets they called fishes, because they moved in the ether, as fishes do in water. S. Vince, Complete System. Astronomy vol. II. 253 (1799) Plato considered that the stars, chiefly formed of fire, move through the ether, a particularly pure form of air. Popular Astronomy vol. 24 364 (1916) (https://www.oed.com/dictionary/ether_n, as of 6/19/2024) When the free location of consciousness is accompanied by an extension of the mind of compassion, there can be a feeling that the necessity of breath is connected to things that lie outside the boundaries of the senses. That, to me, is an experience of “the infinity of ether”. Ether saves! ok, doesn't have that same feel...

All I know of Daoism are the things I've read, Lao Tzu and Chuang-Tzu (Zhuangzi). I think in many ways Ch'an is a fusion of Buddhism and Daoism, but I haven't done the research to back that up, or to provide examples. I learned part of a Tai Chi form, because that part was taught for free in a park near me. I still practice that, and I sit zazen and practice kinhin (the walking that goes with the sitting). Some material I've found useful, from the Tai Chi classics (and other places): The classic literature of Tai Chi appears to identify the ligaments of the body as a source of activity. The literature describes three levels in the development of “ch’i”, a word that literally translates as “breath” but in practice is taken to refer to a fundamental energy of the body, and each of the three levels has three stages. The stages of the first level are: “… relaxing the ligaments from the shoulder to the wrist”; “from the hip joint to the heel”; “from the sacrum to the headtop”. (“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78) Unlike the contraction and relaxation of muscles, the stretch and resile of ligaments can’t be voluntarily controlled. The muscles across the joints can, however, be relaxed in such a way as to allow the natural stretch and resile of ligaments–that would seem to be the meaning of the advice to “relax the ligaments”. The stages of the second level are: “sinking ch’i to the tan t’ien” (a point below and behind the navel); “the ch’i reaches the arms and legs”; “the ch’i moves through the sacrum (wei lu) to the top of the head (ni wan)”. (ibid) Tai Ch’i master Cheng Man Ch’ing advised that the ch’i will collect at the tan-t’ien until it overflows into the tailbone and transits to the top of the head, but he warned against any attempt to force the flow. Omori Sogen cautioned similarly: … It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting. We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force. (“An Introduction to Zen Training: A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59) I would posit that the patterns in the development of ch’i reflect involuntary activity of the body generated in the stretch of ligaments. There is, in addition, a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that can be effected by pressure generated in the abdominal cavity and that may quite possibly depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract (see my Kinesthesiology of Fascial Support). The final level in the development of ch’i concerns “chin”. According to the classics, “chin comes from the ligaments” (“Three Levels” from “Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on Ta’i Chi Chuan”, Cheng Man Ch’ing, trans. Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 77-78). The three stages of the final level are: “t’ing chin, listening to or feeling strength”; “comprehension of chin”; “omnipotence”. (ibid) Another translator rendered the last stage above as “perfect clarity” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, Douglas Wile, p 57). In my estimation, “perfect clarity” is “the pureness of (one’s) mind” that Gautama associated with “the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” in the fourth concentration. The Tai Chi classics emphasize relaxation. For me, calm is also required with regard to the stretch of ligaments, if “automatic movement” is to be realized. The stretch of a ligament prior to strain is small (6%), and I would say that automatic movement is only initiated at the edge of the range. Cheng Man Ch’ing mentioned a Chinese description of seated meditation, “straighten the chest and sit precariously”–I think that also speaks to the necessity of calm (ibid, p 21). (A Way of Living)

"Growing up that channel slowly closes"-- Brought to mind the strange disparities between allopathic and osteopathic medicine, in particular the allopathic notion that the bones of the skull and the sacroiliac joints fuse, versus the belief among some osteopaths that they do not (Sutherland and Raymond Richard). Went looking for the age at which allopaths feel the sacroiliac joints stiffen or fuse, found: ... In both sexes, SIJ mobility decreases from birth to puberty but then, according to Brooke, increases transiently in adult females to a peak at about 25 years old (Brooke, 1924), while in males, joint mobility remains low, especially in middle- and old-aged men. More recent studies partially contradict the age-related findings on decreasing SIJ mobility. Pelvic motion of males and females was investigated by roentgen stereophotogrammetric motion analysis (RSA). RSA is a technique for measuring small movements, and is regarded as the gold standard for determining mobility in orthopedics (Kibsgård et al. 2012). In several studies, Sturesson et al. (1989, 1999, 2000a,b) applied this technique to measure the mean SIJ mobility around the sagittal axis in patients with PGP. As expected, the average mobility for men is about 40% less than for women. However, with age, there was no detectable decrease in total mobility in either gender in patients (up to 50 years old). In fact, there was a significant increase of mobility with age for both ‘supine to sitting’ and ‘standing to prone with hyperextension’ tests in both sexes. It should be noted that the latter studies analyzed mainly patients under the age of 50 years, possibly influencing the results. (The sacroiliac joint: an overview of its anatomy, function and potential clinical implications; A. Vleeming, M. D. Schuenke, A. T. Masi, J. E. Carreiro, L. Danneels, F. H. Willard; First published: 19 September 2012; https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1469-7580.2012.01564.x; https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1469-7580.2012.01564.x) That's interesting, about the decrease of mobility in women through puberty, that reverses to age 25. I've been working with the SIJ (sacroiliac joint) in my sitting practice, lately. I'm writing about that now: I’m partial to Yuanwu’s “turning to the left, turning to the right, following up behind” (Case 17 “The Blue Cliff Record”). If I relax the muscles of the lower abdomen and the muscles behind the pelvis, and calm the stretch of ligaments between the pelvis and the sacrum, gravity can yield a “turning to the left, turning to the right”. “Following up behind” I believe refers to support engaged behind the sacrum by “turning to the left, turning to the right”: There is… a possible mechanism of support for the spine from the displacement of the fascia behind the spine, a displacement that may depend on a push on the fascia behind the sacrum by the bulk of the extensor muscles, as they contract. (A Way of Living) Zen Master Omori Sogen cautioned against “putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force”. That caution against the use of force also applies for the gluteus muscles that stretch the fascia behind the sacrum, and for the extensors behind the sacrum that press as they contract. With calm in the senses connected with balance, gravity can enter into the stretch of the ligaments between the pelvis and the sacrum, and a reciprocity may ensue in the activity of the lower body. “Following up behind”, like “turning to the left, turning to the right”, is an embrace of automatic activity generated through the free placement of consciousness: There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) The early childhood memories are there, and as Daniel Goleman pointed out in "Emotional Intelligence", they are likely to trigger behavior that feels totally compulsive. Nevertheless, the resolution of these memories, or at least a peaceful coexistence with them, may ultimately depend on unlocking "the central channel". I think the osteopaths (and other healers) are probably right when they say that some memories are stored in the fascia and other tissues of the body, and that those memories require a physical as well as a mental approach to access and release.

contact of freedom the morning cup of coffee after lunch, some tea

You can fault me for offering from Buddhist teachings instead of Daoist, but I think these teachings borrowed from each other in China. In one of his lectures, Shunryu Suzuki spoke about the difference between “preparatory practice” and “shikantaza”, or “just sitting”: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) Suzuki said that directing attention to the movement of breath (“following breathing… counting breathing”) has the feeling of “doing something”, and that “doing something” makes such practice only preparatory. Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

And now for something really unpopular--Mark quotes himself, quoting the Pali sermons: Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294, emphasis added) “When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows. Gautama also spoke of “the activities”. The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition: And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities. (SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4) Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible: And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’. (SN IV 145, Pali Text Society Vol IV p 85) He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease: …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (SN IV 217, Pali Text Society vol IV p 146) Gautama spoke in detail about the experience associated with his enlightenment (his enlightenment being his insight into the causation of suffering), and said that that experience meant that "destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’." …And again, Ananda, [an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to the solitude of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. [One] regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends: 'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] s true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realisation of emptiness. ("Lesser Discourse on Emptiness", Culasunnatasutta, Pali Text Society MN III 121 vol III p 151-2) "Destroyed is birth", seemingly an end to karma--karma being the boomerang effect of "determinate thought" in action of speech, body, or mind. But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”, Shunryu Suzuki; San Francisco, February 22, 1970; )

And now for something really unpopular--Mark quotes himself, quoting the Pali sermons: Gautama’s teaching revolved around action, around one specific kind of action: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (AN III 415, Pali Text Society Vol III p 294) “When one determines”—when a person exercises volition, or choice, action of “deed, word, or thought” follows. Gautama also spoke of “the activities”. The activities are the actions that take place as a consequence of the exercise of volition: And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities. (SN II 3, Pali Text Society vol II p 4) Gautama claimed that a ceasing of “action” is possible: And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’. (3) He spoke in detail about how “the activities” come to cease: …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (4)

I can't give a source, but I read somewhere that about 10% of Western physicians are intuitives. That is to say, they have a shamanistic streak, they practice based on their intuition as much as they can get away with. Not that they dispense with science, but they have confidence in their intuition and an openness to modalities of healing. I guess in a sense you could say all osteopaths have something of that in their practice, looking at the foundations of osteopathy.

All threads must die, even the ones we particularly like. Maybe, especially the ones we particularly like...

There are a number of aluminum-containing drugs on the market (like antacids, which have the highest levels), though aluminum compounds are also added to processed foods such as anti-caking agents in pancake mix, melting agents in American cheese, meat binders, gravy thickeners, rising agents in some baking powders and dye-binders in candy. Therefore, it’s better to stick to unprocessed, natural foods. Also, if you cook those natural foods in an aluminum pot, a significant amount of aluminum can leach into the food (compared to cooking in stainless steel). When researchers tried the same experiment with tea, they got a few milligrams of aluminum regardless of what type of pot they used, suggesting that aluminum was in the tea itself. Indeed, back in the 1950’s, researchers noticed that tea plants tended to suck up aluminum from the soil. But it’s the dose that makes the poison. According to the World Health Organization, the provisional tolerable weekly intake—our best guess at a safety limit for aluminum—is two mg per healthy kilogram of body weight per week, which is nearly a milligram per pound. Someone who weighs around 150 pounds probably shouldn’t ingest more than around 20 mg of aluminum per day. Up to a fifth of aluminum intake may come from beverages; so, what we drink probably shouldn’t contribute more than about four mg a day, the amount found in about five cups of green, black, or oolong tea. So, should we not drink more than five cups of tea a day? It’s not what you eat or drink, it’s what you absorb. If we just measured how much aluminum was in tea, it would seem as though a couple cups could double aluminum intake for the day. But if we measure the level of aluminum in people’s bodies after they drink tea, it doesn’t go up. This suggests that the bioavailability of aluminum in tea is low, possibly because most of the extractable aluminum in brewed tea is strongly bound to large phytonutrients that are not easily absorbed; so, the aluminum just passes right through us without actually getting into our bodies. Probably more than 90 percent of the aluminum in tea is bound up. ("Aluminum Levels in Tea", Written By Michael Greger M.D. FACLM • May 17, 2016; Last updated: January 25, 2024) Doesn't address aluminum in tea with lemon. I see an article in Times of India that claims lemon does allow the absorption of aluminum from tea, but then there's this: 12 healthy volunteers on a controlled aluminium (Al) diet each consumed a tea infusion (500 ml/70 kg body weight), with either milk or lemon juice as additives, or mineral water, following a three-way crossover design. The concentrations of Al were determined in the diet, mineral water and tea infusions, and in plasma samples collected before and up to 24 hr after consumption of tea or water, using graphite-furnace atomic absorption spectrophotometry or inductively coupled plasma emission spectrometry. Consumption of up to 1.60 mg Al from tea with milk or lemon juice did not increase plasma Al levels compared with consumption of approximately 0.001 mg Al from mineral water. The results suggest that, in the short-term, drinking tea does not contribute significantly to the total body burden of Al. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8444383/) I'm ok with tea bags and old, caked matcha. What can I say. Great that I can buy organic black tea bags from Safeway now! I am particular about coffee, maybe someday I'll be less lazy about tea...

Doesn't sound like it, unless maybe you're doing algebraic topology. People talk on that thread about category theory and functional programming. I'm familiar with functional programming, but in practice, I find code that uses it mostly unintelligible. Maybe my lesser intellect, but a lot of people make a living re-inventing the wheel these days, and I'm not fond of unnecessary complication. Like, I never saw the point of data-base software, but Ellison has done very well.

Hey, Daniel. Are you talking about mango-apple chutney, that's a sort of universal. Pub lunch counter accompaniment, Guiness!

Well, the point of the excerpt from Wikipedia was really that not everybody trusts logic that includes the law of the excluded middle, especially when it comes to infinite sets. The set of all sets that don't include themselves--does that include itself? Godel basically demonstrated that a set of logical axioms sufficient to generate everything that's known in mathematics must also generate contradictions. If the axioms don't generate contradictions, you can't generate everything that's known in mathematics from them. I got really lucky. After trig, I flunked the calculus qualifying exam at the local junior college, so I had to go back and take the "pre-calculus" they offered there. The JC taught "pre-calculus" (trig) based on set theory, they built up the theorems of trig from set theory. That's the way all of the mathematics courses at college were taught, except for calculus--from set theory. The first-year calculus that was offered at university was intended for engineers. The proofs were not rigorous, only "intuitive", and for a lot of people I know, the proofs that were offered were not intuitive at all! I had a hard time with it. I wound up being a math major, and when they taught calculus again for math majors with complete proofs based on set theory, I enjoyed it very much. Most of my friends did the trig that was memorization of theorems and formulas, didn't "get" the calculus that was similarly taught, and resented mathematics. Just to let you know, you were short-changed if you tried calculus and dropped out. It wasn't you but the system. As usual. We now return the thread to the actual topic, hopefully...