Mark Foote

It's pretty funny to watch myself stumble over my own two feet--last time I did that, I rolled out of it, but I received a bone bruise from the pressure cooker (with the potluck pasta) in the process. Maybe it's only three balls at a time, in the air. That's all I can do, anyway.

then hop skip and jump over and back again, 'til you can hardly see

For me, most of the koans concern a coordination that involves all the senses, and they are about specific aspects of that coordination. Many are very physical, and hard to relate to outside of a physical practice. That doesn't mean that they aren't everything, in a life well-lived. I can relate to what Steve is saying, and I'd like to thank you, Steve, for your careful and considerate responses. Tom, I appreciate your willingness to keep listening, even as you have some very firm ideas about what these things mean with regard to your own experience. May I suggest that we will cut through sooner if we speak in first person whenever possible, so "I" as opposed to "you". Gautama described the first cessation as the cessation of speech, and also as the cessation of dis-ease. The second, he said was the cessation of unhappiness. Flow, though, I would guess has to do with the third and fourth cessations, so the cessation of ease apart from equanimity (with respect to the multiplicity of the senses) and the cessation of happiness (apart from same). That's pretty dry. Steve said: "We simply need to recognize and realize, settle into what we already are. It is done without any effort whatsoever." Realizing cessation is different from understanding cessation. I think Steve points this out when he says: "It is easy to try to grasp it. Better to let go, at least for me." As to no effort whatsoever, yes, but... (that's the way Shunryu Suzuki characterized Soto Zen--"yes, but..."--as opposed to Rinzai, "no!"). There is a stretch involved in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage, and there is spontaneity in the movement of breath in any posture or carriage. Stretch can bring ease, and spontaneity can bring happiness. I believe this is why Gautama emphasized relaxing the activity of the body, and calming the activity of thought, in his way of living. As Yuanwu's teacher said, it is possible to walk along hand in hand (with him). If I'm open to involuntary activity and the presence of mind necessary to a specific movement of breath, merging like this (with a long-dead guru) can occur. That would be my experience.

Wouldn't that be, "merging or connecting to divine beings and guru yoga" in a Buddhist context? Did you know Gautama believed in fairies? I can't quote the chapter and verse, but there's a place in the sermon volumes where he describes them. He also believed in "stroking the sun and moon", as one of the six miracles. I take refuge in his advice to only accept what I can experience for myself, from his teaching. Maybe this is off-topic, but here is what Gautama described as his own way of living, before and after enlightenment ("and a pleasant way of living, at that"): "Mindful [one] breathes in. Mindful [one] breathes out. Whether [one] is breathing in a long (breath), breathing out a long (breath), breathing in a short (breath), breathing out a short (breath), one comprehends 'I am breathing in a long (breath), I am breathing out a long (breath), I am breathing in a short (breath), I am breathing out a short (breath).' Thus [one] trains [oneself] thinking, 'I will breathe in experiencing the whole body; I will breathe out experiencing the whole body.' [One] trains [oneself], thinking ' I will breathe in tranquillizing the activity of body; I will breathe out tranquillizing the activity of body.' [One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out experiencing zest... experiencing ease... experiencing the activity of thought... tranquillising the activity of thought.' [One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out experiencing thought... rejoicing in thought... concentrating thought... freeing thought.' [One] trains [oneself], thinking: 'I will breathe in... breathe out beholding impermanence... beholding detachment... beholding stopping (of "voluntary control... concealed from the consciousness by habit") ... beholding casting away (of "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body")'." (MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124; parentheticals added: "voluntary control... concealed from the consciousness by habit" borrowed from Feldenkrais's "Awareness and Movement", "latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer' in regard to this consciousness-informed body" from MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68; "zest" and "ease" from SN V 310-312, Pali Text Society V pg 275-276, in place of "rapture" and "joy") I believe the initial context of this instruction was the suicide of scores of monks, after Gautama advised them to meditate on the "unlovely" (aspects of the body)(Sanyutta Nikaya V, in the chapter titled "The Concentration on In-Breathing and Out-Breathing). Gautama said the first four elements were mindfulness of the body, the second four mindfulness of feelings, the third four mindfulness of mind, and the last four mindfulness of the state of mind. Thought applied and sustained is present in the first of the material meditatve states, but not present in the second, so I have to conclude that although Gautama returned to "that first aspect of concentration" after he lectured (self-surrender as the object of thought & one-pointedness of mind?), his way of living mostly occurred in the first of the material states. But what a relief! "Rejoicing in thought... concentrating thought... freeing thought"--this was his natural course. That tranquilizing the body can be followed naturally by zest and ease, try it (I think you'll like it)--you have to allow equalibrioception to incorporate proprioceptive awareness and exercise relaxation (& the sense of gravity) to experience it. Cessation of voluntary activity in in-breathing, in out-breathing--this is the characteristic of the fourth of the material meditative states, described as: "... (a person), putting away ease... enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one's) body with purity by the pureness of (one's) mind, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one's) mind. ... just as (one) might sit with (one's) head swathed in a clean cloth so that not a portion of it was not in contact with that clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (one's) body with purity..." (AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19) Elsewhere it's the entire body that is swathed in the clean cloth. And yet, Gautama's way of living was the rhythm of the sixteen, which he described as a pleasant way of living to his monks. No more talk of enlighenment, or of the four truths; just a rhythm that he was able to make a way of living, especially in the rainy season. Gautama's implied advice is that the material and non-material states come naturally when they are appropriate and enlightenment does not need to be the focus. Tranquillizing the activity of the body and the activity of thought, these to me seem the key moments, when proprioception and equalibrioception/graviception enter in--not to mention freeing thought. Who can keep sixteen balls in the air, inhaling and exhaling? No attainment but non-attainment.

They said to Him: Shall we then, being children, enter the Kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inner as the outer and the outer as the inner and the above as the below, and when you make the male and the female into a single one, so that the male will not be male and the female (not) be female, when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in the place of a hand, and a foot in the place of a foot, (and) an image in the place of an image, then shall you enter [the Kingdom]. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, pg 18-19 log. 22, ©1959 E. J. Brill) Yeah, what he said. "have no coughing or sighing in the mind-- with your mind like a wall you can enter the way" (Denkoroku, attr. to Bodhidharma, translated by Thomas Cleary, pg 111) When were these guys ever not entered into "The Kingdom", "the way", I wonder? And yet they describe entering. And for an opposing point of view, here's Avalokitesvara: The Heart Suttra: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva was moving in the deep course of wisdom which has gone beyond. He looked down from on high and saw but five skandhas* which, in their own being, were empty. Here, O Sariputra, Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form; Form does not differ from Emptiness, Emptiness does not differ from Form; whatever is Empty, that is Form, whatever is Form that is Empty. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness. O Sariputra all dharmas are marked with Emptiness, they have no beginning and no end, they are neither imperfect nor perfect, neither deficient nor complete. Therefore O Sariputra, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no name, no concepts, no knowledge. No eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or object of the mind, no sight organ, no hearing organ and so forth to no mind consciousness element; no ignorance or extinction of ignorance, no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path, no cognition, no attainment, nor anything to attain. There is nothing to accomplish and so Bodhisattvas can rely on the Perfection of Wisdom without trouble. Being without trouble they are not afraid, having overcome anything upsetting they attain Nirvana. All Buddhas who appear in the three periods, fully Awake to the utmost right and perfect enlightenment because they have relied on the Perfection of Wisdom. Therefore, one should know the Perfection of Wisdom is the great mantra, is the unequaled mantra, the destroyer of suffering. Gate, Gate, Paragate, Para Sam gate Bodhi Svaha English: Gone, Gone, Gone beyond Gone utterly beyond Oh what an Awakening (from here) Ah, nothing to attain, nothing to accomplish (rubs chin). Like the sound of that. The Perfection of Wisdom. The true nature. “Whatever… is material shape, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling… perception… the habitual tendencies… whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present… (that person), thinking of all this consciousness as ‘This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self’, sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. (For one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that ‘I am the doer, mine is the doer’ in regard to this consciousness-informed body.” (MN III 18-19, Pali Text Society III pg 68) "Perfect wisdom". Do we sit down to let the day begin? I do!

Jonesboy, my guess is that you do something else, if you don't sit--dance, walk, play ping pong--something with concentration, am I right? Myself, I sit and walk, I dance when my feet are moved, and I play the guitar when I feel inspired to do so. I had to sit. I was unhappy with myself as a teen, and I figured there was a lot for me to learn through sitting. Kobun Chino Otogawa impressed me very much when I was in my early 20's, when he said "take your time with the lotus"--I figured that meant the posture could be a learning experience and I really would benefit from the effort to learn it. You can find my description of what I've learned here, if you're interested. About completed infinities ("True Nature")--here's a paragraph or two from Dispute over Infinity Divides Mathematics: Infinity has ruffled feathers in mathematics almost since the field’s beginning. The controversy arises not from the notion of potential infinity —the number line’s promise of continuing forever—but from the concept of infinity as an actual, complete, manipulable object. Assuming actual infinity leads to unsettling consequences. Cantor proved, for instance, that the infinite set of even numbers {2,4,6,…} could be put in a “one-to-one correspondence” with all counting numbers {1,2,3,…}, indicating that there are just as many evens as there are odds-and-evens. The mathematician Poincaré sums it up nicely for me (from Wikipedia, actual infinity): There is no actual infinity, that the Cantorians have forgotten and have been trapped by contradictions. (H. Poincaré [Les mathématiques et la logique III, Rev. métaphys. morale (1906) p. 316]) I would say that the assumption of the existence of a completed infinite, as in "True Nature", or "Dao", or "God", will result in contradictions, and such an assumption isn't really required to benefit from the positive and substantive particulars in the most of the wisdom teachings of the world. At the same time, there's a lot of useful mathematics that relies on the notion of a completed infinity for proof, and I would guess the majority of people on this earth find terms like "Dao" useful as a means of orientating themselves in everyday living. I think it is possible to talk about the boundaries of the senses, and somehow to perceive things that lie beyond those boundaries, and that perception may be characterized as "infinite" (as in "the infinity of ether", the perception of the first of the non-material meditative states--bearing in mind that the non-material states are marked by "uniformity with respect to the senses"). At least Gautama tended to describe things in mostly positive and substantive terms, as when he described how "the infinity of ether" was "the excellence of the heart's release" through the suffusion of the world with "a mind of compassion": "[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with compassion, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of compassion that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence." (MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48) That's kind of how the "people moving around outside" sit with me, when I sit.

"Although I will acknowledge that, for me, the discovery of this true nature does not necessarily occur as a result of even the most ardent practice and may occur spontaneously for the newbie or non-practitioner. There is a component of karma and blessing present." (Steve) Here's D. T. Suzuki playing the devil's advocate on Gautama's advice (to sit down cross-legged, setting mindfulness before oneself): https://ideapod.com/zen-master-explains-meditation-overrated-maybe-even-harmful/

1. The first quotation you offer does not necessarily imply happenstance for me. I can practice intensely and through that effort find myself in that place where true practice occurs. After all we're talking about a master of Zen who stressed the importance of formal sitting. Rather than look at it as happenstance, I interpret this as reaching a point where we let go of the one who is practicing, see through the illusion of identifying with that one. That is not usually a random happenstance. This happens after many years of dedicated practice. Although I will acknowledge that, for me, the discovery of this true nature does not necessarily occur as a result of even the most ardent practice and may occur spontaneously for the newbie or non-practitioner. There is a component of karma and blessing present. Nevertheless, I believe Dogen believed strongly in the value of zazen to help reach this point. Dogen borrowed most of Fukan Zazengi, if I read Bielefeldt correctly, and I'm sure he did so because of the difficulty in describing how "zazen sits zazen" (as Shunryu Suzuki put it). The Zen tradition in Japan does emphasize the importance of sitting the way Gautama described, cross-legged, although the length of the sitting period seems to vary between schools and even within schools. It's my impression that the internal martial arts of China have many of the same benefits, in so far as yielding practice. "Let the mind be present without an abode." --Diamond Sutra The woodcutter heard that passage read aloud in a marketplace, and it changed his life. I take it as a kind of easing into what already is, and for me, the mind that is present without an abode has a sense of place (even if it can shift around). At the same time, "people who are moving around outside all sit with you--they don't take the sitting posture", as Kobun Otogawa said, and that to me speaks of "finding my way at this moment." I don't disagree with what you say. I'm only positing that the inconceivable may be actualized as getting up out of a cross-legged posture and walking across the room, for no apparent reason. 2. The mind, in my paradigm, does not actualize anything. It is an observer that takes credit where none is due. It is not the true doer. Only when we see this and let go of the false identification with mind does actualization occur. We may be using the word 'mind' differently. I know there are differences between the Dzogchen and Zen paradigms regarding mind and its nature. Maybe it's "the wind that reaches everywhere" that gets up and walks across the room, but "the mind that is present without an abode" and the "people who are moving around outside" (that sit with me) are my usual suspects.

Checking Wikipedia: The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control", and is often included in the paradox wei wu wei: "action without action" or "effortless doing". Here's where I love Dogen's choice of words--let me quote something of the original passage, from Genjo Koan: "When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…" So this is a thing of happenstance, finding oneself where one is, finding one's way at the moment. Out of happenstance, a practice simply occurs. Later in Genjo Koan, Dogen adds a third observation: "Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent." That's what I'm driving at--the mind that is present without abiding can actualize as a posture, as a carriage or a movement, without any doer.

Here's something I find of interest. I'm looking at two accounts of the "Samye debate", 792 c.e.- 794, first from the Encyclopedia Britannica--this of course is a debate between two schools of Buddhism: Samye Debate, also called Council of Lhasa, in Tibetan Buddhism, a two-year debate (c. 792–794 CE) between Indian and Chinese Buddhist teachers held at Samye, the first Buddhist monastery in Tibet. The debate centred on the question of whether enlightenment (bodhi) is attained gradually through activity or suddenly and without activity. The more conventional Mahayana Buddhist view was represented by Kamalashila, a scholar expressly called from India, and supported by the prominent Tibetan convert Gsal-shang of Dba’. They argued for the doctrine of the Madhyamika (“Middle Way”) school, which arose out of the teachings of the monk Nagarjuna (flourished 2nd century CE). According to this doctrine, the final goal of buddhahood can be achieved only after a long course of intellectual and moral development generally requiring a series of lives. The Chinese representative (whose Sanskrit name was Mahayana) upheld the teachings of the meditative Chan (Japanese: Zen) school of Mahayana Buddhism, which held that enlightenment is a sudden, spontaneous event that is not furthered and may even be hindered by conventional endeavours. The debate took place in front of the reigning Tibetan king, Khri-srong-lde-btsan, who declared in favour of the Madhyamika teachings of the Indian representatives. His decision may have been influenced to some degree by the intermittent warfare then going on between Tibet and China. Thereafter, India exerted greater influence than China over Buddhism’s development in Tibet, though Chan continued to be respected there. and second, from "How Do Madhyamikas Think?", by Tom J. F. Tillemans: ...Some members of the Chinese entourage in despair of losing committed suicide; one of the prominent Tibetans allied with the Indians also committed suicide by starving to death; and the debate finally concluded with the murder of the leader of the Indian side, Kamalasila, at the hands of hired assassins, who supposedly "crushed his kidneys." The Chinese leader... was ignominiously expelled from Tibet, unfairly as his side claimed. (pg 179-180) Does seem like the history between the schools of Buddhism is somewhat sordid. According to A. K. Warder (in "Indian Buddhism"), the order split irreconcilably something like 150 years after Gautama's death over the issue of whether or not an arahant could be seduced by a succubus. Where did the notion of sudden enlightenment come from--seemingly not from Indian Buddhism, unless Bodhidharma brought it personally from a chain of teachers that died out in India. I guess that's possible. What would have made the conditions right, for such a teaching to prosper in China, I wonder--certainly Buddhism was in China before Bodhidharma, and even a Chan-like Buddhism (as with Fuxi). Possibly the changes made by the third Patriarch of Chan, in accepting donations of land and making a monastery that was self-reliant, had something to do with it. No doubt, the Muslim invasion in the 700's was a big factor in turning the tide on Buddhism in India, in favor of traditional Hinduism. Did Daoism ever advocate for an enlightenment experience? I'm thinking not...

Dogen spoke of "actualizing the fundamental point" through "finding your place where you are" and through "finding your way at this moment"--just to be clear, when you say "rest in the nature of mind", you are referring to "actualizing the fundamental point", would that be right? I'm trying to distinguish between a passive state of inactivity, which "rest in the nature of mind" might be taken to characterize, and a state in which posture or activity is actualized (the fundamental point being the heart-mind).

I did like Fa Xin's reply, about taking a walk in the woods. There's this: Tokusan was studying Zen under Ryutan. One night he came to Ryutan and asked many questions. The teacher said: “The night is getting old. Why don’t you retire?” So Tokusan bowed and opened the screen to go out, observing: “It is very dark outside.” Ryutan offered Tokusan a lighted candle to find his way. Just as Tokusan received it, Ryutan blew it out. Nasty old crow. Ate all the breadcrumbs, too. I can't help but be inspired by some people. On some level, I can't help what I believe. I have come to see that my actions follow my beliefs, whether I will the actions or not. The actions that don't follow my beliefs, create some weird circle that brings me back where I started. "One time Huike climbed up Few Houses Peak with Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma asked, 'Where are we going?' Huike said, 'Please go right ahead--that's it.' Bodhidharma said, 'If you go right ahead, you cannot move a step.' (Denkoroku, "Transmission of the Lamp" #30, trans. Cleary) "Is it possible for one person to directly introduce another to deeper states of being"--so Huike is said to have found enlightenment at Bodhidharma's words (above), but to me what he got was an experience of his own action without "going right ahead". Seems like this is not what your question refers to--your question is whether or not someone can induce an altered state in another person, perhaps by their mere presence. A contact high, as they used to say back in the day--am I getting this right? Ok, maybe something more life-changing than a contact high, but by the same means. I'm sure it's possible, but mostly what I've seen and read about is people who get guru-gobsmacked. They feel something profound in the presence of the guru or teacher, but they become self-conscious and can't move a step. Is there a mind to mind transmission outside of scripture?--that's an accepted article of faith in Zen as far as I know, but it seems like a different question. I don't mean to denigrate seeking some deepened state of being through attendance on a teacher, but I'm guessing if there's no experience of action in the absence of the activities (habit or volition in speech, deed, and thought) as a result, not much has really transpired.

And so, Ananda, I have taught directed meditation; and I have taught undirected meditation. Whatever is to be done by a teacher with compassion for the welfare of students, that has been done by me out of compassion for you. Here are the roots of trees. Here are empty places... SN 47.10 PTS: S v 154 CDB ii 1638 Bhikkhunupassaya Sutta Glad for zafus, am I!

Keep in mind that the order split into Theravadin and Mahayana over whether or not an enlightened individual could have a wet dream, about 150 years after Gautama's death. I'm serious, that was the issue they couldn't agree on--it's not about wisdom versus concentration, that's just something invented after the fact to explain the schism (you can find it in A.K. Warder's "Indian Buddhism"). If a teaching is really consistent with the oldest historical record of what Gautama taught (the first four Nikayas in the Pali sermon volumes), then it's about the cessation of habitual or willful activity, whether it's Theravadin or Zen. Seated meditation is going to involve thought applied and sustained at times, but thought applied and sustained also ceases. Each aspect of Gautama's mindfulness was intimately associated with in-breathing or out-breathing--if you ask me that is what's unique about Gautama's teaching--and freeing the direction of mind in in-breathing or out-breathing was a part of Gautama's way of living (I can quote the chapter and verse, if you like). One of sixteen aspects of setting up mindfulness that comprised his way of living, so it goes around and it comes around. There are other senses involved for me when I sit (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception), and I emphasize them and free the location of my awareness; not the object of my awareness, but the location of awareness itself. Being aware of the stretch helps me relax into my body; being aware that my happiness depends on a natural breath helps me let go of activity. I can usually sink into a stretch for awhile, and find a spontaneous breath in the midst of a stretch, but about 35 minutes and I'm cooked. I wouldn't sit for more than 50 minutes or an hour. The guy I know who sat 50 minutes in the lotus 14 times a day for five days every month is sitting in a chair now, and he grew up in Japan--I wouldn't press it that hard! Shunryu Suzuki told Blanche Hartman: "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!"

"What do you find?"--I find that my actions are not "mine", as to the current movement of breath or even perception and sensation. "What do you do?"--at that point, I don't know! I pretty much try to relax and stay calm moment to moment. Doesn't sound like a merge, but there's action without intention that usually turns out to be in accord with what is to come. Most often, like this: And it is when the body is impelled by the windy element that it performs its four functions of walking, standing, sitting, or lying-down, or draws in and stretches out its arms, or moves its hands and its feet. (Buddhaghosa "Path of Purity", translation Henry Warren Clarke "Buddhism in Translations" section 21) I haven't talked about a teacher, but although I have mostly taught myself, I have in the past been able to pick things up seemingly by osmosis from some teachers. I was trying hard to learn, they were trying hard to teach, yet getting the feel is always something peculiarly personal (IMO).

My comment: Response from Jonesboy: Hi, Jonesboy, Not saying that there isn't effort, for me to find my feet when I'm looking to free-style (as to rock 'n roll), but it's peculiar. Like this: I'm thinking the overcoming of the suffocation response is the sudden thing in Zen, and associated with "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing". Not the same thing as "Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so", but it's possible to enter on Gautama's way of living without enlightenment, and he recommended it. ... I'm thinking it's associated with this: "[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… sympathetic joy… equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence." (MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48) The "excellence of the heart's release" through the suffusion of compassion, in particular, is associated with the arupa jhana characterized by the "infinity of ether". I can't dance unless the mind of friendliness and compassion suffuses the "people on the other side of the wall", as Kobun said. (from the thread "Mind Only", here) The same incorporation of what lies beyond the boundary of the senses can connect with someone in the same room, and I certainly can feel it when some people enter a room (sometimes), even if I don't see them. Makes me self-conscious, and I have to look to calm my mind and relax my body, in order to breath. Are we talking about the same thing?

C T, I did cite chapter and verse from the Pali sermons to that effect a few posts back. Here it is again from the cleaned up version that I posted on my blog: What did Gautama mean by "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing"? The phrase occurs often in the Pali sermon volumes (along with "the cessation of perception and sensation"). Did he actually mean that the breath stops? What Gautama meant can be established by cross-referencing the teachings in the sermons about what he referred to as "activities". Gautama's truth concerning the origination of suffering placed "activities" between "ignorance" and "consciousness": He defined "activities" as "determinate" bodily deed, speech, or thought (AN III 415, Vol III pg 294 and SN II 3, Vol II pg 4). The cessation of the activities constituted the cessation of speech, the cessation of "in-breathing and out-breathing", and the cessation of "perception and feeling" (SN IV 217 Vol IV pg 146). "The cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing" is therefore the cessation of determinate activity in the movement of breath, rather than the actual cessation of the breath itself. A cessation of determinate or volitive activity in speech, body, or thought can be a wonderful thing, yet sitting down to experience such a thing is fraught with peril. So, for example, Shunryu Suzuki admonished Blanche Hartman: "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!" (from Zazen Notes, here)

flying along here my mind in repose; maybe less tea, more crackers

my mind in repose not holding still, no fixed sign flying along here

taoguy, if I quote your response we'll get so long, we'll be here all alone. Maybe we are already, I don't know. Your experience with lucid dreaming is pretty interesting, as is the description by the master of his experience with the arupa jhanas. Gautama does say this: “...[an individual], not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [Their] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [They] comprehend thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” (MN III 108-109, Vol III pg 151-152--emphasis mine) So there's a lot going on in that quote, but I wanted to point out that it's not about leaving the senses behind--that doesn't happen, at least according to Gautama. Moreover, there is knowledge and freedom, and Gautama speaks of these as parts nine and ten of the ten-fold path of the adept. So, not so much a crossing-over into enlightenment, never to be concerned with the elements of the path again, but returning with new elements of the path. The ceasing of the activities in the jhanas he says is gradual. Zen, of course, is a sudden school. It's interesting to me that in the chapter on "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" in Sanyutta V, Gautama has to respond to the suicide of many of his monks (they were meditating on the unlovely aspects of the body, as he had instructed them to do, and they took the knife by the scores). He called the monks together, and lectured about what he described as his own way of living, before and after enlightenment, a thing perfect in itself--the implication being that a lack of enlightenment was no hindrance to this way of living, that it could be pursued regardless. Very Soto. That way of living is the setting up of mindfulness, as described in Anapanasati Sutta. So the question might be, what happens suddenly? Knowledge of the suffocation response is useful to me, not because of the clinical symptoms, but because it can be overcome by relaxation, as the commentator on the scholarly article said: "My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body's impulse to panic." Anapanasati Sutta does include relaxation of activity in the body in inhalation and exhalation, and calming the mind similarly. The setting up of mindfulness concludes with the beholding of impermanence, of detachment, of cessation, and of relinquishment, always in conjunction with inhalation or exhalation (mindfulness of states of mind)--I would say that a freeing of the direction of the mind in inhalation and exhalation and an encounter with the suffocation response seems like a natural prelude to the beholdings, to me. I'm thinking the overcoming of the suffocation response is the sudden thing in Zen, and associated with "the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing". Not the same thing as "Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the [holy]-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so", but it's possible to enter on Gautama's way of living without enlightenment, and he recommended it. The "windy element", I know the phrase appears in Buddhaghosa's "Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga). I remember reading his description of walking as the windy element pulling the body forward, something like that. Yup. I'm thinking it's associated with this: "[One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… sympathetic joy… equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence." (MN I 38, Pali Text Society volume I pg 48) The "excellence of the heart's release" through the suffusion of compassion, in particular, is associated with the arupa jhana characterized by the "infinity of ether". I can't dance unless the mind of friendliness and compassion suffuses the "people on the other side of the wall", as Kobun said.

creek and mountainside far below, rain on the roof the lake in slumber

Feels that way when I'm free-styling, sometimes, Here's one of my favorite quotes from the late Kobun Chino Otogawa: "Sitting shikantaza is the place itself, and things. ...When you sit, the cushion sits with you. If you wear glasses, the glasses sit with you. Clothing sits with you. House sits with you. People who are moving around outside all sit with you. They don't take the sitting posture!" (from the Jikoji website, Aspects of Sitting Meditation) Without even trying!

(Response to taoguy) I was excited a few months ago to find a work that quoted Yuanwu, amplifying on what he meant by "die the great death"--here it is: "People who have died the great death are all free of the Buddha-Dharma, free from its principles and its abstruseness, free from gain and loss, right and wrong, merit and demerit; they have reached here and rest in this way." (Yuanwu, from "Critical Sermons of the Zen Tradition: Hismatsu's Talks on Linji", pg 155) This appears as a footnote to a recent post on my own blog, Twenty-second Case: Hsueh Feng's Turtle-Nosed Snake, where I offer this explanation (from an earlier post): Coming back to life is coming back to my senses (including equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception). When I come back to my senses, the location of my awareness can move even if the rest of me is still, that is "open as empty space"; the rest of me can move when the location of my awareness is still ("the millstone turns but the mind does not"), that is "feet walking on the ground of reality". I can breathe. (An Image in the Place of an Image, Zazen Notes, Feb. 6, 2016) I don't have your experience with kundalini. As you are probably aware, Gautama spoke of the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing, as one of the cessations of the fourth material meditative state (along with the cessation of happiness, apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses). With regard to dependent origination, between "ignorance" and "consciousness" are the activities: “Conditioned by ignorance activities come to pass; conditioned by activities consciousness, conditioned by consciousness name-and-shape, conditioned by name-and-shape sense, conditioned by sense contact, conditioned by contact feeling, conditioned by feeling craving, conditioned by craving grasping, conditioned by grasping becoming, conditioned by becoming birth, conditioned by birth old age-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow, despair come to pass. Such is the uprising of this entire mass of ill.” (SN II 2, Pali Text Society Vol II pg 2) The “activities” are defined as volitive or “determinate” bodily deed, speech, or thought (AN III 415, Vol III pg 294 and SN II 3, Vol II pg 4; the cessation of the activities, meanwhile, is identified with the cessation of speech, the cessation of “inbreathing and outbreathing”, and the cessation of “perception and feeling”, SN IV 217 Vol IV pg 146). This is why I conclude that the cessation of in-breathing and out-breathing that Gautama spoke of is the cessation of volition, or intention, or habitual activity, in connection with the breath, rather than the actual cessation of the breath itself. An experience of the absence of self in activity, of the cessation of habitual activity in speech, body, or thought, is a wonderful thing, yet sitting down to experience such a thing is fraught with peril.. So, for example, Shunryu Suzuki admonishes Blanche Hartman: "Don't ever think that you can sit zazen! That's a big mistake! Zazen sits zazen!" Similarly, Dogen quotes a koan: 'Mayu, Zen master Baoche, was fanning himself. A monk approached and said, "Master, the nature of wind is permanent and there is no place it does not reach. Why, then, do you fan yourself?" "Although you understand that the nature of the wind is permanent," Mayu replied, "you do not understand the meaning of its reaching everywhere." "What is the meaning of its reaching everywhere?" asked the monk again. Mayu just kept fanning himself. The monk bowed deeply.' (Genjo Koan) Maybe if the author of the koan had not added, "the monk bowed deeply", folks would have thought that Mayu's action in fanning himself was just old Mayu, continuing to willfully fan himself--I don't know! When Gautama says " for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body", I believe he is talking about the day when Mayu discovered himself continuing to fan in the absence of any exercise of will to do so, and I'm sure the experience for Mayu had as much to do with breath as my experience of zazen getting up and walking across a room--everything to do with the breath, as a part of the wind that reaches everywhere! It requires "dying the great death", a willingness to give up activity, to such an extent with regard to the body that the suffocation response is invoked, yet moment-to-moment relaxation and calm can be continued.

There's wisdom and then there's "perfect wisdom": "Whatever... is material shape, past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, mean or excellent, or whatever is far or near, (a person), thinking of all this material shape as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. Whatever is feeling ...perception ...the habitual tendencies ...whatever is consciousness, past, future, or present ...(such a person), thinking of all this consciousness as 'This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self,' sees it thus as it really is by means of perfect wisdom. ... for (one) knowing thus, seeing thus, there are no latent conceits that 'I am the doer, mine is the doer" in regard to this consciousness-informed body." (Majjhima Nikaya, Vol. III 19, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 68) There's the suffocation response as habitual activity of the body is relinquished in the movement of breath--the relaxation and calm that allows self-surrender in the face of the suffocation response makes the difference (between wisdom and perfect wisdom), I do believe. For me, experience with equalibrioception, proprioception, and graviception has made a real difference in realizing my thinking mind as just one of the senses, and allowing the heart-mind to be present without abode.

"Let the mind be present without an abode." (Translation Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from "The Rabbit's Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra", Buddha's Light Publishing pg 60) I don't think it's possible to avoid making judgements--the question is do we act upon them, and of course we generally do, by habit. I sit and the mind that is present without abode acts, with the movement of breath: there is relaxation and calm, there is thought and the cessation of habitual activity. Sometimes the mind that is present without abode gets up and walks around, with the movement of breath; I have faith that it can. My experience and consequently my faith allow my action apart from my judgement, at times.