Mark Foote

As my father used to say, "You men will whistle while you march!" I remember that now, as I look to "steep, drench, fill and suffuse this body" with "zest and ease", the adjunct to kneading the bath-ball of "one-pointedness" together in the first of Gautama's concentrations. For me, "zest and ease" comes out of clarity and gravity (or more like gravity and clarity). What a concept. Ease in a bent-knee posture, held over time. Whistle while you march. What brightens me up: When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. ... I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough. That freedom of consciousness to shift and move, even the thought without the freedom brightens me up. Look, ma, no Pali quotes! And now for something more on topic--uh-oh, Pali... Udayin, as an emerald jewel, of all good qualities, might be strung on a thread, blue-green or yellow or red or white or orange coloured; and a [person] with vision, having put it in [their] hand, might reflect; ‘this emerald jewel… is strung on a thread, blue-green… or orange-coloured’–even so, Udayin, a course has been pointed out by me for disciples, practising which disciples of mine know thus: This body of mine… is of a nature to be constantly rubbed away… and scattered, but this consciousness is fastened there, bound there….” (MN II 17, Vol II pg 217; see also AN IV 304-305, Vol IV pg 202-203)

Ow. Ow ow ow. Skipping ahead in Australia, it's g'day.

Timeline-hopping game Pali texts, Nag Hammadi hold that prostration

Unpopular: You can't get there from here. Also unpopular: Wherever you go, there you are! Wildly popular: We'll meet again Don't know where Don't know when But I know we'll meet again some sunny day Keep smiling through Just like you always do 'Til the blue skies chase those dark clouds far away

The lake I live next to is estimated to be at least 500 million years old. Somewhere I read that the tribes gathered here first, before they spread out around California. That would have been about 14,000 years ago. The lake is only 52 feet deep at its deepest. It's still here, because there's a volcanic fault slipping away at the same rate as the buildup of silt. Kinda like the place, in spite of what the white folks did at the south end (superfund site for a mercury mine). Photo by Keith Gronendyke

The site is "Discovering Buddha", and the links to texts (including the texts of the Pali Text Society) are here: https://www.discoveringbuddha.org/scholarly-societies/the-pali-text-society/canonical-texts-and-commentaries-pali-and-english-where-available/ I was able to search for a term in one of the Pali Text Society volumes that are included, and find it. I see that it's also possible to search for a term specifying "discoveringbuddha.org" as the site to be searched, for example: piti site:discoveringbuddha.org Good news.

How about Dogen? In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote: When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. (“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi) Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself” (as Nisargadatta taught), activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body. Dogen continued: When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… (ibid) “When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body. I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough. (Take the Backward Step) Let me guess--your idea of a good time is Yuanwu: When you arrive at last at towering up like a mile-high wall, you will finally know that there aren’t so many things. (“Zen Letters: Teachings of Yuanwu”, translated by Cleary & Cleary, 1st ed p 83)

Article can be found here: https://www.sweetwaternow.com/uw-religion-today-constantine-created-christian-church/

I will gladly quote scripture next Tuesday, for a plate of zazen today! A sutta, sutra, hokey-pokey libretto... A person can hokey-pokey without a libretto, but no one sang like Gautama the Sakyan.

How then do you propose a person becomes enlightened, if "added knowledge is interesting but can not cross over"?

to spirit and wit that keep us sane in this world our deep gratitude our deep gratitude to the grebes out on the lake putting on a show (photo by Ed Oswalt)

Stirling's favorite quote: Enlightenment is an accident--practice makes us accident prone. Often attributed to Shunryu Suzuki, turns out the quote and the source are more likely Krishnamurti: Enlightenment is an accident, but some activities make you accident-prone. (http://www.cuke.com/Cucumber Project/lectures/dubious.htm)

The things you've quoted, they're all good. I do prefer the Pali Text Society translations, but they're not searchable online so far as I know. Let me be clear, I'm not hoping to attain the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving. Gautama's enlightenment, I think, came out of his experience of emptiness in that attainment. I'm looking to discover Gautama's way of living, as he outlined in "The Chapter on Inbreathing and Outbreathing" in SN V, in my own life. My impression is that his way of living depends on regular experience of the cessation of ("determinate thought" in) inbreathing and outbreathing, experience that he set up daily through seated meditation and that I believe recurred to him regularly through his thought initial and sustained. Why were each of his thoughts initial and sustained connected with an inbreath and outbreath? I think it was because of his long discipline to the necessity that places attention in the movement of breath, whether that necessity is the simple necessity of air in the lungs or the necessity to generate support for the lumbar spine in each movement of breath. Necessity can place attention, and a presence of mind with that placement and an extension of feeling to allow that placement to shift and move anywhere in the body ("with no particle left out") constitutes the initial concentration. For me, the extension of feeling begins with a sense of gravity, then shifts to a feeling of ease and an accompanying clarity. Is that clarity "zest"?--clarity does allow for a certain energy. At any rate, that's what I feel. The pattern of thought Gautama identified works well for me, or at least the highlights of that pattern of thought. Begin with relaxation, physical relaxation in the body connected with the activity of breath. One-pointedness of mind is apart from feeling the body, it's just a location in space, yet when I relax I find feeling for a particular part of the body associated with one-pointedness of mind. Gravity is there, then ease, clarity, and extension. As the stretch of ligaments is engaged, calm is helpful. If I appreciate the thinking mind, then I can detach from thought, and allow one-pointedness to begin to coordinate the activity of the body. The stretch of ligaments tends to arrive at the ligaments that connect the pelvis to the sacrum. For me the trick is to recognize that the stretch in the ligaments controls the reciprocation in the muscles in the front of the lower abdomen--the source of the activity is the calm stretch of ligaments and I just relax the muscles. Thought initial and sustained ceases and there's a particular feeling: … imagine a pool with a spring, but no water-inlet on the east side or the west side or on the north or on the south, and suppose the (rain-) deva supply not proper rains from time to time–cool waters would still well up from that pool, and that pool would be steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with the cold water so that not a drop but would be pervaded by the cold water; in just the same way… (one) steeps (their) body with zest and ease… Omori Sogen offered a quote from Hida Haramitsu, who spoke of shifting ‘the center of the body’s weight”: We should balance the power of the hara (area below the navel) and the koshi (area at the rear of the pelvis) and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body. (Hida Haramitsu, “Nikon no Shimei” [“Mission of Japan”], parentheticals added) Sogen cautioned: … It may be the least trouble to say as a general precaution that strength should be allowed to come to fullness naturally as one becomes proficient in sitting. We should sit so that our energy increases of itself and brims over instead of putting physical pressure on the lower abdomen by force. (“An Introduction to Zen Training: A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, p 59) There comes a moment when the stretch moves upward from the ilio-sacral joints, and likewise the corresponding activity in the abdominals moves upward. The way I find to experience gravity as the source of activity then entails the inclusion of the extremities, somehow, in the feeling of location in the body associated with "one-pointedness". … free from the fervor of zest, (one) enters and abides in the third musing; (one) steeps and drenches and fills and suffuses this body with a zestless ease so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this zestless ease. … just as in a pond of blue, white, and red water-lillies, the plants are born in water, grow in water, come not out of the water, but, sunk in the depths, find nourishment, and from tip to root are steeped, drenched, filled and suffused with cold water so that not a part of them is not pervaded by cold water; even so, (one) steeps (one’s) body in zestless ease. Things can shift from activity in the body coordinated by "one-pointedness", to activity that takes place solely by virtue of the free location of "one-pointedness": Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… (Pali Text Society AN III 25-28 Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) I find myself redoubling presence of mind with the location of consciousness (whilst mindful of the freedom of consciousness to move), to make the transition to activity solely by virtue of the free location of "one-pointedness". That the head is involved, I suspect has to do with adding the stretch of ligaments connected with the skull and jaw and activity controlled by that stretch. Other lectures, like the one you quoted, describe the clean cloth swathing the head and the entire body. An evenness in the stretch of ligaments, from the pelvis and sacrum through the atlas and the occiput, likely results in an ease in the exits of nerves between vertebrae and an evenness of sensation or feeling in the corresponding dermatomes. When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration: … there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen. (Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24, transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) Thanks, Stirling. The cessation of feeling and perceiving is the final attainment--here's some of Gautama's teaching on the further states: The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. He described a particular method for the extension of the mind of compassion, a method that began with the extension of “the mind of friendliness”: [One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (Pali Text Society MN I 38, Vol I p 48) The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”. The fourth of the further states Gautama described as “neither perception nor yet non-perception”. He gave no specific instruction on the transition from the third state to the fourth, but equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses (see PTS MN III 220, Vol III p 268-269) is still present in the fourth. (The Early Record) Equanimity with regard to the uniformity of the senses is transcended by lack of desire, "by means of lack of desire", to arrive at the cessation of feeling and perceiving. All this is thoroughly unpopular among modern Buddhists, I'm afraid.

Yes, I've come to that conclusion. I did email him, years ago. We agreed to disagree. And I… at the close of (instructional discourse), steady, calm, make one-pointed and concentrate my mind subjectively in that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide. (Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303) Herein… the (noble) disciple, making self-surrender the object of (their) thought, lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness. (The disciple), aloof from sensuality, aloof from evil conditions, enters on the first trance, which is accompanied by thought directed and sustained, which is born of solitude, easeful and zestful, and abides therein. (Pali Text Society SN V 198, vol V p 174; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) "Piti" was translated as "zest" by F. L. Woodward, in the paragraph about the 1st concentration I quoted above. That's actually been something I've only found my way into recently, the "suffusion" of the body with zest and ease as in Gautama's description of the practice of the first concentration: … just as a handy bathman or attendant might strew bath-powder in some copper basin and, gradually sprinkling water, knead it together so that the bath-ball gathered up the moisture, became enveloped in moisture and saturated both in and out, but did not ooze moisture; even so, (a person) steeps, drenches, fills, and suffuses this body with zest and ease, born of solitude, so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded by this lone-born zest and ease. (Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19, see also MN III 92-93, PTS p 132-134) The bath-ball I believe is a metaphor for "one-pointedness of mind". My take: Words like “steeps” and “drenches” convey a sense of gravity, while the phrase “not one particle of the body that is not pervaded” speaks to the “one-pointedness” of attention, even as the body is suffused. If I can find a way to experience gravity in the placement of attention as the source of activity in my posture, and particular ligaments as the source of the reciprocity in that activity, then I have an ease. ("To Enjoy Our Life") And yet, there is the feeling of ease for me that kicks in with gravity as the source of activity, and the extension of that ease while experiencing one-pointedness of mind I find provides a continuity. One-pointedness, the soap-ball, and the suffusion of the body (with no particle left out) with zest and ease--odd the way Gautama combined these seemingly disparate elements, isn't it? You're talking about "the infinity of ether", the first of the further states? Gautama never referred to any of the further states by number, in the first four Nikayas. All the states of concentration are described by Gautama as having equanimity as a characteristic, the first four equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, and the further states equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses. Maybe you're talking about the third jhana: (One) enters & remains in the third (state), of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, (one) has a pleasant abiding.’ (Samadhanga Sutta, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu, AN 5.28 PTS: A iii 25; Pali Text Society, see AN Book of Threes text I,164; Vol II p 147) Meditation on no object should not be confused with blank-mindedness in which you are completely dull as if in a stupor or a faint. It is extremely alert, mindful and clear, but as in the Clear Light death meditations, without any object or thoughts. (“The Mahamudra: Eliminating the Darkness of Ignorance”, Wang Chug Dor-je, Alexander Berzin, Beru Khyentze Rinpoche; p. 51-52; commentary by Beru Khyentze Rinpoche) ... as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. (Koun Franz, "No Struggle" from his Nyoho Zen site) There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) Well and good. Find out for yourself, how the location where awareness rests is the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing, and let me know when you experience the emptiness of the cessation of feeling and perceiving. It's one thing to experience spontaneous feeling and perceiving in daily life, and quite another I think, to sit down and bring the spontaneity of feeling and perceiving about.

My high school social studies teacher talked about working at a filling station, back in the day, and I guess when the bathroom was occupied guys would go around back and piss on a tin sheet that was back there. He hooked up a coil--should have seen him smile when he recounted the reactions.

And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends: 'That being, this is.' I would say he's talking about "things as it is", to quote Suzuki. One thing to another, cause and effect, right now. An experience, as opposed to an understanding. Can't say that I've had the experience, though! A. K. Warder in his "Buddhist India" actually goes so far as to attribute the sutta pitaka to Ananda: The 'doctrine' was first recited by Ananda, who being the Buddha's personal attendant had heard more than anyone else. Kasyapa asked him about all the dialogues, etc., he remembered, and the assembly (at the First Rehearsal) endorsed his versions as correct. The doctrine thus compiled became known as the Sutra Pitaka, the collection of sutras (the term 'pitaka' probably signifies a 'tradition' of a group of texts). (2nd ed., p 200) ... in Ceylon, at least, in the Sthaviravada School, it is recorded that the monks were organised into groups specializing in each of the agamas or the Vinaya or the Abhidharma, handing these texts down to their pupils and so maintaining the tradition. In fact even ten years after his full 'entrance' into the community, a monk was expected to know, besides part of the Vinaya obligatory for all, only a part, usually about a third, of his agama, and these basic texts are pointed out in the Vinaya. (ibid, p 206) Ok, apparently that's accepted history in the Theravadin tradition, not just Warder. A quick online search doesn't immediately confirm Ananda's eidetic memory, but I found: From section 3.2 of the book "The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts" by Bhikkhu Sujato & Bhikkhu Brahmali: For several hundred years, from the time that separate transmission lineages emerged in the Asokan period until the texts were written down, the EBTs (Early Buddhist Texts) were passed down orally in separate textual lineages. Comparative studies have shown that this oral transmission was highly reliable and that the core doctrinal material was essentially unchanged. How did this work, given what we know about the unreliability of memory? Indian culture provided the template for highly reliable oral preservation. It is known that the Ṛg Veda and other Vedic texts were transmitted orally—that is, by memory—with extreme accuracy for over two thousand years. A modern instance of eidetic (photographic) memory in the Order: In 1985, the Guinness Book of Records recorded the sayadaw (Mingun_Sayadaw) as a record holder in the Human memory category. The exact entry was Human memory: Bhandanta Vicitsara (sic) recited 16,000 pages of Buddhist canonical text in Rangoon, Burma in May 1954. Rare instances of eidetic memory -- the ability to project and hence "visually" recall material-- are known to science. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingun_Sayadaw) You're right, lots can happen when texts are handed down orally. I'm satisfied that the voice in most of the first four Nikayas is unique and consistent, and that the content of those sermons regarding mindfulness and concentration have no counterpart in any of the other religious literature of the world. I assume this is a Brassington quote? I am abundantly sure that Brassington teaches from a particular set of reference materials. That they don't match the ones YOU might choose is a shame (see above), but I don't think it has anything to do with the validity of his teachings, qualification to teach, or his knowledge and experience of the jhanas. Yes, a Brassington quote. I don't think you're going to find anything in the first four Nikayas that supports his account of the history, or his opinion about the concentrations, no matter whose translation you use. I grant you, that there are sermons in the first four Nikayas that associate "one-pointedness" with the second concentration, instead of the first. I did find something that seems clear on the topic: “And what… is the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations, with the accompaniments? It is right view, right purpose, right speech, right action, right mode of livelihood, right endeavor, right mindfulness. Whatever one-pointedness of mind is accompanied by these seven components , this… is called the (noble) right concentration with the causal associations and the accompaniments.” (Pali Text Society, MN III 71vol III p 114; similar at SN V 17; “noble” substituted for Ariyan) That would say that if right concentration exists, "one-pointedness" exists. Thought "initial and sustained" is a characteristic of the first concentration. That would say that thought and "one-pointedness" are not mutually exclusive. Gautama described his way of living, before and after enlightenment, as sixteen thoughts initial and sustained, each in connection with an inhalation or an exhalation. He claimed that such an "intent concentration on inbreathing and outbreathing" was his way of living "most of the time" and especially in the rainy season. He also said that at the end of his discourses, he returned to "that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever constantly abide (Pali Text Society MN I 249, vol I p 303)". I would therefore surmise that he spent most of his time in the first concentration (since it's the only one with thought initial and sustained), but the "contemplation of cessation" in his thought initial and sustained, particularly in connection with a particular inbreath or outbreath, allows for a return to the fourth concentration when circumstances warrant (by means of the "survey-sign" of the concentration). Tell me now, who is teaching these things? How in the world did you get that Koun Franz is "moving awareness around" from what he said? One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. I'll agree that "one-pointedness" is not an activity of the mind, not an habitual or volitive activity of the mind. I think you make an excellent point there, when you say that "awareness doesn't reside behind your eyes". The eyes have a particularly strong connection to the part of the brain concerned with equalibrioception, graviception, and proprioception, and they can reset the sense of location. I would say that's why most people feel that their consciousness, the consciousness they associate with "I am", resides in the head behind the eyes. "... you might realize that awareness doesn't reside behind your eyes, but is actually wherever attention is and become enlightened?"-- Let the mind be present without an abode. ("Diamond Sutra", tr. Venerable Master Hsing Yun, from “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing p 60) Loch Kelly could be talking about "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness", hard to say. Doubt he gets into what comes next, though!

I sympathize, old3bob! DC, froze you to the contact?

Why do we love Dao Bums. This page, and the last part of the previous.

That's a beauty. Back in the high school electronics lab, we used to sneak up behind our classmates while they were working on their power supplies, and give a shout. 220, knock 'em off the stool! We didn't become experts in electronics, just in 220v.

From the article: The jhanas are eight altered states of consciousness, brought on via concentration, each yielding more concentration than the previous. As you pass through the jhanas, you stair-step your way to deeper and deeper levels of concentration—that is, you become less and less likely to become distracted. Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered. These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest. They are simply a way of preparing your mind so you can more effectively examine reality and discover the deeper truths that lead to liberation. So: Upon emerging from the jhanas—preferably the fourth or higher—you begin doing an insight practice with your jhanically concentrated, indistractable mind. This is the heart of the method the Buddha discovered. Gautama's enlightenment is associated with his attainment of "the cessation of ('determinate thought' in) feeling and perceiving." Here's his account, from the sermon "Emptiness (Lesser)": ... not attending to the perception of the plane of no-thing, not attending to the perception of the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, [one] attends to solitude grounded on the concentration of mind that is signless. [One's] mind is satisfied with, pleased with, set on and freed in the concentration of mind that is signless. [One] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind that is signless is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself. (One) regards that which is not there as empty of it. But in regard to what remains [one] comprehends: 'That being, this is.' Thus, Ananda, this comes to be for [such a one] a true, not mistaken, utterly purified and incomparably highest realization of emptiness. (Pali Text Society MN III vol. III 108-109, p 151-2; bracketed replaces gendered nouns/pronouns; translator's parenthetical omitted) "That being, this is". In a nutshell, dependent origination in action. I don't read that as "upon emerging from the jhanas... you begin doing an insight practice", do you? These states are not an end in and of themselves, unlike what the Buddha’s two teachers had taught him shortly after he’d left home to begin his spiritual quest. So far as I know, Gautama only speaks of his two teachers in the sermon "The (Noble) Quest" (Woodward gave "The Aryan Quest" but more recent translators believe the meaning could be construed as "noble"). He says: ... after a time (I), being young, my hair coal-black, possessed of radiant youth, in the prime of my life--although my unwilling parents wept and wailed--having cut my hair and beard, put on yellow robes, went forth from the home into homelessness. I, being gone forth for the incomparable, matchless path to peace, approached Alara the Kalama... Then follows the story of his mastery of what Alara the Kalama taught (the futher state of the infinity of no-thing), of Alara's request of him to stay and help teach, and of Gautama's dissatisfaction and departure. That's repeated for his second teacher, Uddaka, Rama's son (who taught the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception). Then Gautama said: Then I, ... a quester for whatever is good, searching for the incomparable, matchless course to peace, walking on tour through Magadha in due course arrived at Uruvela, the camp township. There I saw a delightful stretch of land and a lovely woodland grove, and a clear flowing river with a delightful ford, and a village for support nearby. He speaks of attaining nibbana, of the difficulty he expected in teaching the dhamma, of the appearance of Brahma Sahampati who appealed to him to teach, and of his decision to do so. He thought first to return to his two teachers, but realized they had both passed away. Then: I saw with deva-vision, purified and surpassing that of men, the group of five monks staying near Benares at Isipatana in the deer-park. After awhile, he proceeded there, and they gave him a hard time but eventually decided to give it a whirl. He taught them the concentrations from the first four through the final "cessation of feeling and perceiving". There's no mention in the sermon of any insight training. The years he spent as an ascetic are mentioned elsewhere, but not here. That must have been between his home-leaving and his study with Alara, but he doesn't mention those years in this sermon, the only sermon where he talks about Alara and Uddaka (so far as I know). I would say Leigh is pulling rabbits out of his hat, with his history and his notion of the relationship between the concentrations and insight. He is in good company, most of Theravadin Asia appears to have accepted the notion that concentration and insight come separately. I don't find it so, in the first four Nikayas--insight is a byproduct of concentration. The principal difficulty in explaining the concentrations is "one-pointedness of mind". That's a universal of concentration according to Gautama, and it has to be experienced. You've read Koun Franz's offering on the subject in my writings before: Okay… So, have your hands in the cosmic mudra, palms up, thumbs touching, and there’s this common instruction: place your mind here. Different people interpret this differently. Some people will say this means to place your attention here, meaning to keep your attention on your hands. It’s a way of turning the lens to where you are in space so that you’re not looking out here and out here and out here. It’s the positive version, perhaps, of ‘navel gazing’. The other way to understand this is to literally place your mind where your hands are–to relocate mind (let’s not say your mind) to your centre of gravity, so that mind is operating from a place other than your brain. Some traditions take this very seriously, this idea of moving your consciousness around the body. I wouldn’t recommend dedicating your life to it, but as an experiment, I recommend trying it, sitting in this posture and trying to feel what it’s like to let your mind, to let the base of your consciousness, move away from your head. One thing you’ll find, or that I have found, at least, is that you can’t will it to happen, because you’re willing it from your head. To the extent that you can do it, it’s an act of letting go–and a fascinating one. ( “No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/) And in my writing: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living)

I'll guess that by "identity can go to zero", you mean something like: And again … a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [his or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything. (Pali Text Society MN III 42-45, Vol III pg 92-94; emphasis added) And that by "(your identity) can go to infinity", you mean something like: (77) Jesus said: I am the Light that is above them all, I am the All, the All came forth from Me and the All attained to Me. Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there; lift up the stone and you will find Me there. (The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill) That identity "gone to infinity" should be there, when wood is cleaved or a stone lifted, right? I can see where you might think that. In Gautama's way of living, detachment appears in a particular context--here are four thoughts initial and sustained that Gautama claimed were the arising of mindfulness with regard to the mind in his way of living: Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out. (One) makes up one’s mind: Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out. Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out. Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out. (SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed) You may have been thinking of "dispassion", that appears in the thoughts initial and sustained with regard to the state of mind: (One) makes up one’s mind: Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out. (ibid) What's referred to by "dispassion" there is dispassion with regard to the painful, the pleasant, or the "neither-painful-nor-yet-pleasant". "Cessation" is the cessation of "determinate thought" in action of speech, deed, or mind, not the cessation of action per se but the cessation of habit or volition in action. Something that might interest you--the practice that Gautama associated with some of the further states of concentration: [One] dwells, having suffused the first quarter [of the world] with friendliness, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth; just so above, below, across; [one] dwells having suffused the whole world everywhere, in every way, with a mind of friendliness that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. [One] dwells having suffused the first quarter with a mind of compassion… with a mind of sympathetic joy… with a mind of equanimity that is far-reaching, wide-spread, immeasurable, without enmity, without malevolence. (MN I 38, Pali Text Society Vol I p 48) The first of the further states was “the infinity of ether”. Gautama identified the state with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of compassion”. The second of the further states (“the infinity of consciousness”) Gautama identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of sympathetic joy”, and the third (“the infinity of nothingness”) he identified with “the excellence of the heart’s release” through the extension of “the mind of equanimity”.

Thanks for that, Stirling. Suzuki said: But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know– you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation– preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. (“The Background of Shikantaza”; Shunryu Suzuki, Sunday, February 22, 1970, San Francisco; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com) The cessation of "doing something" on the cushion is "just sitting", and "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing". I've written about that cessation: Gautama spoke of the “activity” of deed, but when he spoke of the ceasing of the activities, he spoke of the ceasing of “inbreathing and outbreathing”. Even when “determinate thought” is not directly involved in the movement of the diaphragm, actions in the body that are occasioned by “determinate thought” affect the movement of breath, and can leave a residue of habit that further affects the movement of breath. If “activity” in inbreathing and outbreathing has really ceased, then the “determinate thought” that gives rise to “activity” in the body of any kind must likewise have ceased. “The cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing” is not an actual stoppage of breath. Gautama only spoke about the stoppage of breath once, in a description of the practices he undertook as an ascetic: So I, Aggivessana, stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears. When I, Aggivessana, had stopped breathing in and breathing out through the mouth and through the nose and through the ears, I came to have very bad headaches… very strong winds cut through my stomach… there came a fierce heat in my body. Although, Aggivessana, unsluggish energy came to be stirred up in me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, yet my body was turbulent, not calmed, because I was harassed in striving by striving against that very pain. But yet, Aggivesana, that painful feeling, arising in me, persisted without impinging on my mind… (MN I 244-245, Pali Text Society vol I p 298-299) Stopping the breath in and the breath out did not satisfy Gautama’s quest to “bring to a close the (holy)-faring”. Only after he had abandoned such ascetic practices did he enter the states of concentration, and attain the state that caused him to say, “done is what was to be done”. (A Way of Living) Here's Gautama's description of the fourth of the initial concentrations, where "the cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" takes place, with the follow-on description of the "survey-sign": Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity… this is fourthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration. Again, the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. … just as someone might survey another, standing might survey another sitting, or sitting might survey another lying down; even so the survey-sign is rightly grasped by (a person), rightly held by the attention, rightly reflected upon, rightly penetrated by insight. ... this is fifthly how to make become the five-limbed (noble) right concentration. (Pali Text Society AN III 25-28, Vol. III p 18-19) When Gautama talks about "the fifth limb of concentration", he's not talking about the first of the further states ("the infinity of ether"). I believe he regularly sat to the fourth concentration, took the survey-sign, and used it to recall the fourth concentration in the thought initial and sustained that made up his way of living. Regarding the "purity by the pureness of mind" of the fourth concentration, I wrote: “Pureness of mind” is what remains when “doing something” ceases. When “doing something” has ceased, and there is “not one particle of the body” that cannot receive the placement of attention, then the placement of attention is free to shift as necessary in the movement of breath. (Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages) "Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of one-pointedness"--then for me, just relax, feel, calm, detach, cease. Rinse and repeat.

Take the Backward Step On a forum site I frequent, someone wrote: Even if you have no identity, you still exist. As what? The spirituality that I follow would say “as existence”, or “as pure consciousness”. I was reminded of Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century: You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself. (Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833) “The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote: Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back. (“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176) That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”. I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention: There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence. (A Way of Living) In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote: When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. (“Genjokoan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi) Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness. A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body. Dogen continued: When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… (ibid) “When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body. I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

It is a definition problem. The progress from sotapanna to arhat is gradual, but not because the essential insight has changed or been improved upon... only deepened as the realization of there being no self and other progresses. If you are looking for clarity, asking if there is more than one real non-dual insight in a "gradual" path would be the salient question. …I have seen that the ceasing of the activities is gradual. When one has attained the first trance, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second trance, thought initial and sustained has ceased. When one has attained the third trance, zest has ceased. When one has attained the fourth trance, inbreathing and outbreathing have ceased… Both perception and feeling have ceased when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. (Pali Text Society SN IV 217, vol IV p 146) Gautama could apparently sit down and run through all the concentrations, all of these cessations, forwards and backwards. He said: …I say that determinate thought is action. When one determines, one acts by deed, word, or thought. (Pali Text Society AN III 415, Vol III p 294) And what are the activities? These are the three activities:–those of deed, speech and mind. These are activities. (Pali Text Society SN II 3, vol II p 4) And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’. (Pali Text Society SN IV 145, Vol IV p 85) As in the first passage I quoted, the ceasing of the activities, of "determinate thought" in action, is gradual, as the induction of the states of concentration is gradual. The "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing", that would be the cessation of "determinate thought" in inbreathing and outbreathing--the cessation of habit and volition in the activity of the body in inbreathing and outbreathing by which one contacts a certain freedom. I would say that freedom is the free location of consciousness in the body, born of necessity. There's nothing gradual about the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing". Most of what passes for enlightenment out there is the attainment of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" accompanied by the fifth limb of concentration, the "survey-sign" overview after that cessation. The deepening is the gradual adoption of a mindfulness that allows the experience of the "cessation of inbreathing and outbreathing" as a part of every day living. By Gautama's account, the "cessation of ("determinate thought" in) feeling and perceiving" is also sudden. Gautama's enlightenment, his insight into the nature of suffering, accompanied that cessation. That's the view I have, from the first four Nikayas of the Pali Cannon and my own practice.

I get in trouble when I think I know something, apart from the moment.