Art

I agree. Didn't someone say, "Those who know don't speak" "Those who speak don't know" "Those who know and have spoken wish they wouldn't have" I think that means figure it out on your own. I also agree with the notion of experiencing enlightment and not being taught. Experience for youself and compare notes. What one experiences may or may not be the same for another. But, heck, what the hell do I know? Good topic.

mewtwo, I can relate to your situation. Things will get better. One could relate it to the "ebb and flow" of life. We become stronger and wiser when we confront life's little challenges. With that said, all of the previous responses have covered things very well. If I may, the last thing I would add is: Only you can bring yourself out of "dark" times, because you are the one who keeps yourself there. This is not to say you are alone. Far from the truth. Seeking help is a good thing. However, in my experiences, no one can give you the answer, the can only give you advice. The answers lie within. Others provide guidance and strength which will help you to break free. You have a lifetime to "figure things out", try not to pressure yourself into choosing the path, because you will be missing out on many possibilities.... I'll close by wishing you the best of luck and sending you strength to get through this rough time. Sent with positive intentions, Art

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and replies. I can understanding the perspectives offered, however, I feel the limitations of language are muddying up my ability to understand what you've written here. To me, "god" is ever present, in every thing, at all times. There can never be separation. For myself, the pursuit of spiritual transformation involved a greater understanding of this. However, there can never be an absolute or complete understanding, as we are limited in our capabilities to observe such vastness. This understanding can come only from experience. As for the second bolded portion, I am not sure if I agree with a lack of "will" either. Introducing a "will" would inherently lead to "right and wrong", duality, and separation, which goes against what I stated earlier. I guess I'm coming around to your way of thinking? Thanks!

As I progress in my understanding of the various Taoist practices, I often try to relate them to something else I have learned along the way. I cannot explain why, but as I read through this thread, I am subtly reminded of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Of course we are not talking about electrons, speed, and position, but perhaps an analogy could be made between qi, sitting (steady position, allowing for proper observation of qi qualities), and standing/walking (changing position, more difficult to accurately observe qi qualities)?

Greetings all, To begin with, let me state that I am relatively new to Taoism and could be labeled an Integrationist for lack of better terms.... At any rate, I came across an idea last week that I have not been able to shake. To help you visualize what I am talking about, those familiar with Kunlun should have the image of Stage 1, with the left hand near the lower Dan Tien and the right hand near the middle.... I have been interested in bioenergy and chi for awhile now, and incorporating these into the energy chakras of the palm got me thinking about fire rising and water falling.... Again, back to the Kunlun practice, I imagined a dual flow. Fire energy from the left palm, rising up to the right palm. Water energy from the right palm, falling to the left. Fire rises, water falls. Ever since I have thought about this, I have sensed an energetic increase in my palms. Surely I have an active imagination, but I do feel as if this is more than that.... Any advice, info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Art P.S. - a few people may ask why I would ponder such things. Simply put, I would like to develop an ability to heal.

Way cool! Any pictures? Thanks for the replies. I will take everything into careful consideration, espectially joesblast's reply. Thanks again, Art

RE: Longevity Breathing Longevity Breathing's basic roots are similar to belly breathing. Some helpful information: 1) 70% rule - find the limit of discomfort and work at 70% of that 2) Focus on diaphram. Down on inhale, up on exhale. Let your diaphram do the work, not your lungs. 3) I imagine a line running from my belly button to my spine. I then expand outward and downward. This pulls diaphram down, filling lungs. 4) Incorporate "side" (love handles) and "lower back". For lack of better words, think of a balloon filling with air. 5) Incorporate middle and upper back. Take the image of the balloon, incorporate the middle and upper back, and now you have a "pear shape". Again, one of the more helpful things Bruce mentioned was keeping the front of the chest still. Of course it may expand out a little (thinking too much will hinder the exercise). As for the upper back, I like to bring my shoulders frontwards on inhale, back on exhale. A little conscious effort at the beginning and then you can settle into a "motion" where you're not pushing out or moving your shoulders - the diaphram is doing the work and their movement is a result. From there you can begin to "ignore chatter" (quiet the mind) and focus on energizing Dan Tian. One of the easier breathing exercises that becomes "automatic" for lack of better words.

Not trained, only know about MCO from this site, and very new to Taoism, Taoist methods. I've "taught" myself energy work and have been doing for some time. Only reason I am posting is because just last night it happened, with no effort (aside from longevity breathing to just relax). I wasn't intentionally focusing energy or trying to even get it to move. Once learning about the Dan Tian I began to work on filling and that was it. Have been working on Dan Tian for some time. Became aware of an energetic flow, up the spine on inhale, down the front on exhale, just like described here. Was a very wonderful energetic experience. Did not try to control, just was aware and enjoyed. Another poster said this was a lesser energetic experience than kundalini rising. Maybe so, but not by much. Have experienced two kundalini "shots" upward on separate occassions. My reason for posting is simple. I was not trying to circulate MCO, create it, or anything along those lines. I was simply focusing on my breathing using the longevity method when I became aware of energetic flow. Once I became aware of it, I had a good idea of what it was based upon research here, but did not try to move it or play, just let it be. Spent duration of time enjoying the experience, not trying to analyze it or control it while it was happening. Similar experience with my first kundalini shot. Sitting there, breathing, relaxing, then all of the sudden a huge burst of energy ran from bottom of spine up to crown. Startled me, so I became fearful and it stopped. Again, was not intending or concentrating, just happened. I use the term "just happened" loosely. These two experiences, similar but very different, happened after some basic research and focusing on calming the mind, breathing, and relaxing. Possibly subconscious intent, but was not "trying". Many times I have tried to replicate the kundalini experiences and was met with failure. As another poster wrote, I'm pretty sure I was "over-concentrating" which would best describe my failures. I am hoping that the lesson learned from that will NOT be the same with the energetic sensation I experienced last night, explained best by MCO. Maybe false water wheel or something else, but was definitely not my imagination. Very powerful experience and I am thankful I came to a state of being where I could allow it to happen, become aware, and enjoy it. Am going to continue breathing practices and filling Dan Tian; am happy with that. If MCO happens again, great, but not going to try to force it or replicate it. May have been a one time thing, and if so, then I was lucky enough to have been blessed to experience it first hand.

Mal, Thank you for bringing this topic up for discussion. I recently got the upgraded book and read up through the Level 1 exercise, keeping in mind that one should condition theirself before Level 2. For once I followed instructions! Still very much in beginning studies. That being said, my question to you or anyone else would be, did you follow the advice to abandon all other methods while practicing Kunlun? My conflicts with this are pretty simple. For one, I utilize a method for breathing that I learned from the Bruce Frantzis DVD, Longevity Breathing. I learned about "belly breathing" awhile back, but Bruce's "technique" really helped me refine my breathing, both in "energy/meditative" and "normal" states during the day.... Additionally, I came from a background of Christianity to Agnostic (didn't really give a shit) to New Age to "a personal philosophy", of which has Taoism "defined" a great deal of what I currently resonate with and "explained" some of my experiences, but there is much outside of Taoism that I adhere to. That being said, the "openness" of the kunlun practice seems easy to follow and build upon. Back to the question, I welcome anyone's opinion or experiences while practicing kunlun, and if they "let go of previous techniques" or integrated the good aspects of kunlun into their individual practice? Thanks much for advice/input, Art

Kate summed it up fairly well. I've always sensed that a big problem with people today is that they don't love themselves. Good evidence for such is plain to see; think of plastic surgery, etc. One could even go as far as contemplating their spiritual pursuits as "a lacking of love for one's self".... One the other hand, could it be that one loves their self so much that they consciously choose to seek out a better way of living.... Here's my contribution: Compassion is a product of Empathy. Empathy comes from being open and unselfish. The word "open" is key here; open to perceiving another's pain and suffering. Opening our minds, our hearts.... As far as the "asshole on the freeway", we can always choose how we react. I didn't believe this at first and it is far from easy. Spending too much time thinking about how to react and one misses the chance to experience.... I must apologize, its been awhile since I have posted on a forum so my response is at best limited....

Being "new" to taoism, but experienced in personal energy work, is it necessary to have a deep knowledge of channels, nadis, etc.? One of the reasons I have come to embrace Taoism is the nature of paradox. Someone else stated it well, "effortless effort". I've found that too much concentration is a hindrance. Certainly there is much to be learned from "mastery of study," but I've found more often than not that trying to "match" someone else's experience does not produce results. These are difficult things to put into words, so bear with me. Thoughts/Advice? Thanks!

Greetings all! I am "new" to taoism and just beginning to understand the Tao. I purchased a copy of the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching, but offered them to my step-daughter for her study. Alas, I'll have to be patient. From what I've learned so far, my experiences, knowledge, and pereception seems to fit in with taoism the best. I'll be spending some time reading posts, researching, and reflecting. Thank you all for creating this place to discuss.