RyanO

I originally wrote a long post supporting the following but here is a simple version. I will elaborate if you want. Right now, here are my beliefs: I am agnostic about life after death (and religions in general). I think religions are mostly bullshit that confuse existential crises with the pleasure/addiction cycle. I think the most useful stance one can take is to achieve long-term hedonism on the earthly plane and assume nirvana/union with the Tao comes automatically after death. Ethics/morality exist only to to make our earthly lives better/more pleasurable. Do you think this is valid? Do you follow a religion? If so, how would it respond to my beliefs?

However, I do disagree with this. Some people, it is true, cannot be reasoned with. But there are people who would benefit from debate, and learn something. Sometimes it does tire me out. Mostly, I enjoy it. I think I have something to offer in religious debate, and relish learning new things. To that end : The issue is that religious experiences are both powerful and subjective. The more objective a topic, the easier it is too communicate. That's the beauty of science. I think science has a lot to offer religion. The problem is that it takes a long time, requires funding, and has limits. Also, the problem with the 'experiment/ see it for yourself' teaching you hear some of the more sensible spiritual people say is that you have to think it's worthwhile to even try. And, it's a powerful piece of rhetoric to the point where someone might hear this and lend it more value than it would have otherwise. Believing is seeing. So if I heard: "Do the Five Tibetans for three hours a day for four years and you will have perfect health and be able to shoot lighting bolts from your palm." I'd say: "No way!" They'd say: "Hey don't take my word for it, try it for yourself." I'd wonder if it was worth it. I'd say, show me some lightning bolts first. It's similar with other religions. Pascal's wager doesn't just apply to Christianity: Buddhism holds that if I don't aspire to nirvana I will be trapped in a never ending cycle of rebirth. Since Buddhism is based on principles I have experienced, I am willing to grant this more credence than other religious propositions. But at what cost? It means that I will have to forsake earthly pursuits X and Y. But I love X and Y! Oh, but the karma/rebirth teaching isn't really the point of Buddhism, some TIBETAN LAMAS say. Then what is? To end pain. And then we have...wait for it...Boom: Long Term Hedonism. Ethics/morality, compassion for others v. selfishness is where it gets REALLY tricky. Edit: Typo, some ideas.

I've never done a retreat, but it sounds pretty cool. Definitely want to try that sometime. However, I heard a story about a guy who spent years in a Buddhist monastery and had been confirmed to have attained high level of meditative prowess. He came back to live in the US (New York) and found he was overwhelmed by the stimulation. It was a case of being too psychically sensitive and not having enough grounding abilities. Ken Wilber talks about how meditation should not be seen as a panacea. Check out this article: http://wigglesandwaves.blogspot.com/2004/12/ken-wilber-meditation.html (don't know if link will work forever) It's pretty interesting. My point is that perhaps moving meditations, physical activity, and getting into your body/in touch with the earth, might be as or more important than pure sitting meditation in the case of OCD.

Wow cool! Any sources for that? Totally

Also, your point that “we search for what is eternal, in what is temporal” is important to address. The Christian way of putting it is that we have a God-shaped hole in our hearts. C.S. Lewis said that our problem is not that we want too much, it’s that we DON’T want ENOUGH. This is part of the human condition and is the entire reason religion exists in the first place. It is a testament to the power and imagination of the human spirit. It is spiritual longing. The word ‘hedonism’ does have a connotation of forsaking this longing in favor of temporal, earthly delights. However, I do not think the two have to be mutually exclusive. Many religions do. I'm attempting to reframe the word ‘hedonism’ in its truest, most honest sense. Attaining the goals of most religions would be extremely pleasurable. Even Buddhism, as it claims that being trapped in the wheel of pleasure and pain leads to despair. That doesn't sound very pleasurable In that case, the ultimate pleasure would be nirvana. Edit: typo.

dc: I appreciate the value you place on experiential truths, and didn't mean to imply that you had 'blind faith.' It is certainly possible that you have experienced truths that I haven't. But is difficult for me to believe that someone understands something of what happens when we die. squib: I think we're getting closer here, let me see if I can further clarify... I think there is a difference between existential seeking and 'natural' seeking. Existentially, seeking 'meaning' in pleasure is a dead end, for the reasons you set forth. But that does not mean as corporeal beings it is necessary to become ascetic. Rather, the goal would be to follow the middle way, enjoy pleasures as they come, and enjoy the peace in between. Work can be done to make pleasurable experiences more pleasurable and painful experiences less painful. It is natural for our bodies to seek pleasure. Done right, it encourages health and well being. "Winter cold always follows summer heat", yes, but not on the equator We might not be in that much disagreement. I understand what you're saying. I'm just suggesting that there might not be anything metaphysical about it, (something akin to the book, "Buddhism Without Beliefs" http://www.amazon.com/Buddhism-Without-Beliefs-Contemporary-Awakening/dp/1573226564 ), and also that we seek pleasure naturally and thats ok. We just have to learn to take control of the reins. Edit: Fixed link.

BTW, here's a copy of the ebook: http://www.scribd.com/doc/7304237/Inner-Smile You can also download for free from his website. It's kind of wordy because it's a transcript from his lecture, and has a lot of theory. The actual technique can vary and he presents it in the Healing Tao context, but I think a general Inner Smile can be very therapeutic for many of the problems associated with OCD.

You're welcome Also, I'll add that my favorite meditation technique I've come across is the Inner Smile. I first learned it from Michael Winn's ebook and later from him in person. It's basically a method of unconditional acceptance (though 'acceptance' is banal, 'love' or 'embrace' is better). It's very deep. I've found it to be very useful for feelings of anxiety, fear, etc. and I could see it being useful for OCD.

Interesting subject. I think the best 'natural' cure is meditation, but you might do that already. I'm OCD in the sense of being a perfectionist, which is something I've been dealing with. I'm prone to 'ALL or Nothing' thinking. REBT is a modern type of western psychotherapy that is effective in dealing with OCD. It's all about changing our thinking patterns. That's about all I know, I'm not sure about clinical OCD/effective drugs etc.

Wouldn't year of birth be a too simplistic astrological diagnosis? If that were the case students would be a lot more like others in their grade I understand the logic behind astrology, but I think the influence of the stars/seasons/etc. may be a little over our heads

Cool responses. I'll try to respond to most of your important points. Bear with me, I know religion is a touchy subject! squib: Sorry didn't mean to put words in your mouth! I think it's easy to see that happiness is what we're after, but harder to define it. That's we're all the discrepancies come in. In my experience, real happiness is felt as a} pleasure in the body and b} the sense that you are doing the 'right' or virtuous thing (which I think works because it ultimately leads to satisfaction experiences in the body). It's this b point that causes all the variation. Since I'm not convinced of the whole immortal/spirit body thing, my reason for doing 'spiritual' work is different. dc: I can understand how from a religious perspective, I have erred, especially in not having a teacher (ie have done independent thinking). But from my perspective, I am wary of any authority on spiritual matters (yeah, I've read a lot of J. Krishnamurti). I think religions offer comfort for our uncertainties about existence, not just death. You're three problems are assumptions from your religious perspective which I don't have. T: Love it. Very interesting. Sounds like the Bohemian way would be great especially for a creative personality. My use of the word 'hedonism' is used in the broadest sense possible, mostly to differentiate seeking the highest possible happiness here and now vs. putting it off for the afterlife. E: I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but it might have been because of my "union with Tao comes after death" comment. That was merely to say that I don't think we should be concerned about liberation. Actually, I'm close to being pantheist so I agree with you. What you are saying is exactly the problem that I have with many religions. Peace!

Haha, here's why: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

Gotcha. So we agree many claim to believe in their home-grown 'religion' just to reserve their ticket to paradise. We also, I assume, agree this is cowardly and fallacious thinking. We also agree that most people get the hedonism thing down wrong. Granted, it does take experience to learn. True long term hedonism requires a lot of wisdom. Based on your 'fleeting nature of happiness' comment I assume you're Buddhist, or sympathize with Buddhism? I'm curious as to what you're specific religious beliefs are. It seems to me that a lot of discrepancy over religions is: What is the highest possible happiness? And that's a tough question. Personally, I am drawn to religion/mysticism because I believe there are levels of happiness not obtainable through conventional (sex,drugs), easy means. I think meditation/internal alchemy have a lot to offer people who are agnostic about life after death. Just thinking about there being bliss beyond pleasure and pain sends shivers up my spine. But those shivers are felt in my body. When I contemplate the emptiness of phenomena, I feel pleasure in my stomach. Same when I do the Inner Smile. I think religious practice should be done because it makes one happier here and now, not because it'll make them happier when they die. That is my point. What good is realizing the fleeting nature of happiness if it doesn't make you happy?

Interesting points. First, I do not want to be 'talked out of' anything. I have done a lot of independent thinking and am merely curious as to what others have to say. Second, while I do agree that many are at their core agnostic, I don't think most Westerners fit the bill as you describe. Many are 'insurance' believers, as in they become religious on their death bed because of their fear of death. Also, most would not be what I would categorize as true long term hedonists, in the sense that they are not calculating or are concerned with what would truly give them the most happiness/pleasure. Many people are apathetic and lack passion/imagination. My point about existential crises vs pleasure/addiction is that religious people tend to take simple ideas such as the temporary nature of 'base' pleasures such as drugs and sex and expand them into theories such as the wheel of samsara one can only escape through nirvana (in the case of Buddhism), or that only God can provide lasting happiness (every other theistic religion). Mostly, religions convert people because of our fear and uncertainty over death. The Tibetan Book of the Dead sounds interesting. I have not read it, though I have done my fair share of lucid dreaming. From what I know of it, it sounds very much related to lucid dreaming. To be safe, maybe I'll brush up on my LD skilz, and try to let go of some attachments while I'm at it

Wonderful post.

Non, you know about Winn's Deep Earth Pulsing movement. Practice it. Deeply. In the deepest level of the practice, you're actually having a kind of intercourse with the Earth Mother. As you exhale down, you send your yang energy into the Earth, and then inhale up yin Earth energy through the feet. I've found this to be a very profound practice to soothe sexual anxiety and connect with the feminine. It is great to combine this with the Inner Smile. You probably have the Winn's ebook already, if not, you can find it at his website. It is an honor to be able to share my feelings about this method with you. -Ryan

The whole point of this site: reuniting.info is to overcome our biological programming to have many mates in order to experience more lasting and satisfying forms of happiness. While some animals are monogamous (not many), the author makes a pretty convincing case that humans are not hardwired to do so, as Pietro suggests. The difference is in what to do with this information: become a PUA, or find another person willing to do the work to overcome our biological tendencies. It brings up an interesting philosophical point about the nature of Nature, so to speak, and the wisdom of dealing with it.

There's been some very good advice here. Non, I can empathize with your situation. I think it's useless to try to curb desire without knowing the pleasure of obtaining that desire. It is defeatist and the mind knows that. But...there is a consciousness within us that knows what it is to be fulfilled. We do not need anything to access it. To me, that is what meditation does. It gets us in touch with fulfillment consciousness. So there is nothing that needs to be fulfilled outside in order to experience fulfillment consciousness. For me, the Inner Smile is a good way to access it. When the Smile contacts despair, suddenly despair is loved, and is transformed. So you will continue to have desires, but you will cease to have an existential need for them to be fulfilled. You will go about pursuing their goal, but without desperation. Then you will get what you desire. But even if you don't, you will be Smiling.

Avatar was awesome. From: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Avatar "Tropes Are Not Bad: Most Triumphant Example since Star Wars. Boy, did this movie put it to the test. Those who didn't like it think that the cliched story was its downfall. Most people who loved it think that James Cameron achieved the amazing feat of making all those cliches feel fresh and exciting again." I heartily agree.

Haha, I've been going back and forth on which I like better, cats or dogs, and have decided I love them both equally. They are both amazing in their own way. Cats do have a certain sense of regality that dogs don't have though.

Fascinating discussion. I remember one time in class in high school I said that I considered Christianity a cult, fully believing that but not thinking much of it, and numerous people were offended and became hostile. Made me feel like I was surrounded by cultists! But I said this thinking that not all cults are bad, as I defined 'cult' as any religious organization. I later researched the word and found that in out society 'cult' is used as a term to describe any non-major religious organization. So whether something is a cult or not is a determination given by the masses. But the masses are wrong so often...

Have a merry Christmas everybody

I don't have the Sexual Vitality DVD, but I did learn the movement at Michael's Primordial Qigong and Fundamentals 3/4 workshops this year. He calls it 'Deep Earth Pulsing.' It's a great movement. The way he taught it was to compress the palm and foot of the same side into the earth. We never reversed the movement. We did it for a long time and put a lot of focus on it, for good reason. It's excellent for grounding and getting in touch with the earth. Also crucial is to make sure to 'pump' the hip joint. But like I said, I don't have the DVD (though I'm probably gonna get it soon), so I can't speak to that, but I can say that learning it in person both time we never reversed it. Peace