Maddie

It's important to keep in mind that the mind is considered the sixth sense in Buddhism.

Since at the very least the five things the Buddha said are not-self are the five skandhas then we can at least look at these and consider how and if they are not-self. They are form (or body) perceptions, conceptions, volitions, and consciousness. 1. The body is not self. Most of the molecules in our bodies are constantly replacing themselves throughout our life. The body we had last year is mostly not the same body we have this year, so it can't be considered self. 2. Perceptions are not-self. The information we take in through the senses and our judgment on it being pleasant or unpleasant are not self, such as sights we see, noises we hear, odors we smell, flavors we taste, and tactiles we feel. 3. Conceptions are not-self. The way we conceptualize what the senses take in are not self. 4. Volitions are not self. Our judgments and will are not self. I think we often identify with our volitions, choices and opinions as being self, but ultimately they are simply conditioned. Examples are culture and fashion trends. How many people think they dress unique while more or less dressing like most of society around them for example. 5. Consciousness is not self. I think of all of the skandhas this one is identified with the most as self, yet consciousness only arises in response to sensory input. What about when we are unconscious? Do we stop existing?

I've been to many and yes those two words belong together.

Yeah I get what your saying and was being silly, BUT something I did notice in my church days was that when I would visit a new church coming in as a single guy everyone would eyeball me like a juicy steak and lick their chops because the male to female ratio in churches tend to generally be heavy towards female. The parents and the girl would often have that same look in their eyes when new single guys came in the door "maybe I can snag this church going guy".

Clearly you have not met the battalion of Sunday school teachers I had when I was young lol.

To be honest it really sucked it brought in a lot of anxiety and depression, not only my own, but I also had the pleasure of experiencing other people's minds near me, and most people's minds are not pleasant to experience.

A very good point indeed.

"Do without doing"

I wonder how many prospective female members read that Chia stuff and are just like nope, nope, nope,

It's not projecting if it actually happened in history, and for my undergrad degree I was a history major. The fact that an individual chooses something over another does not negate history. That is like confusing weather for climate. True I didn't reply about the military but could not the same point be made about a field that traditionally rejected women from participating in it?

Yes this is most unfortunate. When I was in acupuncture school it was probably 75% female. I assume this is because acupuncture is new in the west so the traditional male dominated mentality hasn't entered.... yet at least.

Another way of looking at that though is that traditionally the reason most women were nurses is because in the past they were intentionally excluded from being doctors so that was the best they could do, and then cultural traditions seem to have a way of gaining a life of their own from those that do not question them.

Oh yes, ok I thought I knew what you were getting at but wanted to be sure. So what I think you are saying is that since the scriptures of these ways are male oriented and dominated there would be less appeal to the gender that these same scriptures classify as second class citizens? Makes me think of Ajahn Brahm getting excommunicated from his temple in Thailand for ordaining female nuns. Apparently the men in his temple just couldn't handle that and sacked him.

What do you mean?

Yea again it makes me think of the yogi that spent 20 years to learn to walk on water when you can just take a boat for ten minutes. Whats the point of developing something that technology can already do?

Just Buddhist meditation on the breath. Once my mind got very quiet is when things happened.

I'm dumbfounded by the people whose path is power, as every experience I've ever had with what one might call out of the ordinary abilities was a byproduct of an extreme unpleasant spiritual experience. Those who primarily seek powers remind me of the toddler that thinks there's no greater accomplishment than the ability to have as much candy as you want and can't understand why adults don't constantly eat mountains of candy everyday. In seeking power the primary motive is the ego and if one gains even a little bit of success in their pursuit this just strengthens the already fragile ego (yes I realize strengthening a fragile ego is a paradox). The problem with ego is since it is in and of itself a delusion the more ego the more delusion and the more delusion the less ability to realize the ego is operating. This is why those on this forum seeking power will claim to have eliminated the ego but to everybody else it's clear that they have the largest ego in the thread. Traditionally and in the texts and in my own experience every time some kind of ability has manifested itself it was a byproduct and not being sought. This is not something I usually share but maybe someone seeking power might find this useful or who knows it might just encourage them down the path of ego more but that is not my intent. But when I was in Acupuncture school we would have two week breaks in between semesters several of which I would turn into meditation retreats where every day almost all day I would do nothing else but meditate. During one of these such retreats as I was sitting on my cushion meditating several hours into it during the course of the day I suddenly had a searing unbearable pain in my tailbone. It was one of the most excruciating pains I've ever experienced and no matter what position I got into I could get no relief. I was back in my room at the time and my roommate and her boyfriend happened to come into the living room from outside as they usually never came to the apartment since they spent most of their time at his place. Suddenly I could hear their minds and their thoughts almost clear as day and it began to freak me out. Since they were only stopping to get something before they left I waited until they left and I guess perhaps out of desperation I decided to go to the local sandwich shop to get something to eat hoping that would help me feel better. This turned out to be a huge mistake because as soon as I entered the sandwich shop I heard everything going on in everyone's mind in the entire shop and we're talking 20 to 30 people. It was overwhelming and I almost had a panic attack but somehow I managed to get my sandwich and leave and I decided to go to the local nature trail to try to get away from people. Unfortunately it was a holiday and there were a lot of people on the nature trail and every time I would pass somebody I would hear their thoughts as well. So I decided to go back to my apartment and avoid people as much as possible for the rest of the between semester break. Did I gain some kind of ability? Yeah I guess maybe but it was the exact opposite of a pleasant experience. So why anyone would seek that on purpose is beyond me. Much more important to me than the ability was that during this time the way I began to see myself radically changed and this is the takeaway that mattered to me and still does.

I can't claim to be too familiar with the notion of Buddha nature as most of what I learned from Buddhism at least initially came from the theravada school. I don't believe they have such a concept as Buddha nature. Though as I got more into it it did begin to feel somewhat nilistic to me as well. * Additionally I do believe that after Alexander the great brought Greece into contact with India there were debates between Buddhists and Greek thinkers but I wonder what the nature of those debates was like?

Something that I have often noticed on this topic is that a lot of times I think people use the five aggregates or five skandas to explain what the Buddha said we are, but it seems when I read the suttas the Buddha is using the five skandas to explain what we are not.

I think I began to wonder if I was not thinking this way when I posted this question.

Actually for me now the question that the Buddhist side answered makes me want to better understand the Hindu or I guess proto-Hindu point of view that the Buddha was responding against.

Yes I am interested to hear from other perspectives as well.

It sheds a great deal of insight into at least part of it.

@CT that's actually a really good answer, thank you. If I understand correctly from that post it would seem the question if more of one about perception in regards to self as opposed to a teaching on the essence of a self or no-self? This raises the question though, what was he teaching in opposition to in India in his day?

It would seem CT's post answered the Buddha's take on that question pretty well.