Maddie

Yea stuff like that reminds me why I don't like to watch the news too often haha.

So Taoism is socialist... awesome !

Yeay I got into full lotus for about 5 min. at the end of my regular meditation. I had done 2 hours of half lotus so I guess that sort of got me loosened up. I was able to go (very quickly) through the inner smile and healing sounds for each organ and then wrap it up with a few loops of the MCO, and then I was like "ouch" haha.

I think one thing I've consistently been a bit surprised about on TTB's is the lack of discussion of/on the "5's", as this is an important Taoist topic and one that caught my interest early on in qigong and Taoism. I find it interesting to observe their ebb and flow and usually in the process of doing so am able to gain insight into myself and the workings of the universe as well. I've found on so many occasions that using the five elements works for what ever the issue may be, feng shi, qigong, or TCM. There's not a patient who comes in the clinic that I don't evaluate the five elements with in them as part of a diagnosis and treatment plan. Personally the two elements of the moment are the earth and metal elements. Earth in us as people is housed in our "Spleen" system. This includes the spleen and pancreas. Its paired organ is the Stomach, it rules the digestive system it opens into the mouth, rules the muscles and flesh, and its spirit is our "Yi" or intellect or intention. It's emotion is worry. What does digestion have to do with intellect? Think of it as being hungry for knowledge and wanting to "digest" information. I bring this up because this is where I'm at right now. I just can't get enough lol. It's why I've been on here a lot lately too. Not only do I learn a lot from many of you, but I also find that ordering my thoughts in written form helps me to clarify what I think, like I'm doing now lol. I think this "hunger" for knowledge and understanding is being triggered by increased time in cultivation developing my upper dan tien. Though the upper dan tien is located in the head/brain an internal branch of the heart meridian runs up to the brain and this is how the heart housing the mind is connected to the brain/upper dan tien. The spleen then connects to the heart and helps with processing mental function, especially in regards to learning and memorizing. The way that memory works is that the spleen takes in raw data and processes it to understand. It then sends this information to the Kidneys which store it as short term memory. The kidneys then send this to the heart where it is stored as long term memory. Anyways if the spleen is unable to understand or digest a situation mentally (for it operates on the mental realm) it tries again, and again and again and again like a cow chewing its cud. This is why the spleens emotions is worry. A non-productive thought going round and round just burning up energy but getting no where. If the spleen burns up too much energy this way it has insufficient energy to run the rest of the digestive system as it should which is why worry can lead to diarrhea, constipation, ulcers, and other digestive ailments. The quality of the earth (element of the spleen) is being grounded, centered, stable, and practical. Someone who embodies a lot of these qualities is said to be "down to earth". Where as someone who lacks these qualities is said to be "ungrounded". It also gives us our sense of comfort and of being "home". If you find any of these aspects being problematic in your life then one good, simple and inexpensive remedy is to do the inner smile and the spleen healing sound (hu). Ok I'd love to hear other peoples experiences with the 5's and insight as well. :-)

Glad to help :-). I just finished meditating through my organs and realized something else related to what has been discussed, but realized it as it relates to me. Its another good reason to work on the metal element due to its control effect on the wood element. So the liver(and gallbladder)/wood element's positive attributes are problem solving, decision making, planning, and its positive emotions are loving-kindness and compassion, negative emotion is anger and all of angers manifestations (frustration, resentment, bitterness, jealousy, envy, hate, stress, depression, ect...) So it sounds like people like us tend to give of themselves too much, since that metal just can't hold back all that "kindness" from the liver lol. So at the risk of sounding schizophrenic I'll share a little of my organ/element mediation experience (IMO this adds credence to the Buddhist notion of what you call you is an illusion). So I start by going within my lungs, making them glow a nice bright white till they feel pretty good as I'm working on boundaries too (so I am just watching boundaries with mindfulness). Then since I'm tired I go to my spleen making it nice and bright yellow and observing its desire to know and think. Then I go to my heart and make it nice and red and see with in it my desire to interact with people (here I am on TTB's lol) Then I go back to the lungs and look with in them for an explanation or insight into my boundary issues. Well after seeing the need to strengthen the lungs its like the lungs kind of "point" to the liver as though its hard to control. So I go to my liver next and look at it while making it nice and green. So as I'm mindful of my liver I see with in it this kind of excess "kindness" which I know is hard to see how this could possibly be a problem haha, but it can actually be a big problem, especially conditional kindness which expects something back in return. Of course one of the problems with excess kindness is that you can give too much of yourself until your exhausted. With conditional kindness if the other person does not respond to the kindness you give the way you want (liver/wood planning/expectation interrupted), then the polarity of that wood energy reverses to frustration or some other variant of the negative wood state. So yea just wanted to share that insight into the liver/wood thing I had since we were sort of touching upon it.

that was very interesting.

I noticed something interesting. I just felt the tiniest hint of sexual energy return and while in the past I did not like this because I saw it as a distraction I know see it as an opportunity. After I get my energy drained I am usually so utter tired I can't do anything, even meditate. The first indication I have of any sort of energy returning to my system is that of sexual energy. Once I begin to notice that its not long after that I have the physical energy to do things again, including meditation. Though I used to see the desire as a distraction I now sort of see it as my "fuel" source lol. Once I get some energy back I can meditate and convert this into other forms of energy that help me feel good and do things. So I'm happy to have a bit of a perspective shift on this lol.

Yes lol, nagging only makes the other person feel worse not better (no matter how well indentioned lol) :-P. The Buddha said everyone must work out their own salvation because no one else can do it for you. That is the beauty of detachment. It does not mean that you don't care, it means that you respect the other persons right to walk their path. ;-). Dignity and respect are some more metal attributes lol. So yes working on yourself could definitely help your relationship. It sounds like at the moment your metal element is wanting to over control his wood element. Lack of boundaries by wanting to help him (metal) is over controlling his wood and making him upset. On the other hand if you strengthen your metal element to nurture the dignity, integrity, and righteousness of that element then that can help to nurture the gentleness of his kidney/water where the problem seems to stem from in the first place. So negative metal over controls wood resulting in frustration. Positive metal nourishes water resulting in gentleness and lessening of fear. Get it? :-)

Well my personal opinion is that my Metal element is not strong enough yet as I was kind of talking about in the 5 element thread. Since the Metal element is about boundaries this would explain why a while back I was super sensitive to other people's emotions, and now why I suppose I am sensitive to being drained. I've noticed that pretty much the only grey hairs I have anywhere on my body are along my metal element meridians (lung/large intestine). Also in the past I used to feel sad a lot. So I think all this meditation is improving things as the sadness and emotional sensitivity issues are not really so much a problem anymore. Just seems like the draining issues remains. Back when I was working on the sensitivity issue and I did discover about myself eventually was that I was kind of over empathetic. It was like I cared too much about what people were feeling so it was like my mind then followed suit and picked up on what they were feeling. Lack of boundaries, due to lack of metal lol. Seems like what happened was that the more I meditated and built up qi through mindfulness that it must have strengthened my metal element (along with other things) so I was able to be more detached and thus have better boundaries. I also found the homeopathic remedy Phosphorous to help too as its good for people who are too sensitive to others. As far as being drained I think it might be related to my intense desire to help other people. Thus the whole reason I'm studying TCM in the first place. Of course the problem in the past is I've tended to martyr myself in the process. So my hunch is that this is showing me that I just need to develop another level of my metal element so that I can exercise detachment on this level too and further improve my boundaries. Hope that makes sense.

Your welcome. One thing you mentioned sounded like a good example of the negative generating cycle. So ideally the gentleness of the kidney water rises to nourish the kindness-compassion of the liver wood. In the case you mentioned his paranoia which is negative kidney/water fear is nourishing your liver/wood anger. If you were interested in approaching this from a five elements perspective for yourself in this case I'd recommend working on your liver/wood, and lung/metal. Liver/wood to help you to not become as angry due to his paranoia, the direct approach or what is called in TCM the "branch". I'd work on Lung/metal because metal controls wood so it would help to keep that in balance. Also metal is about our boundaries. The lung/metal governs our skin and wei qi which keep things that need to be kept out, out, and things that need to be kept in, in. The lung physically does this with the air we breathe. It separated the oxygen from the rest of the air, keeping the oxygen and expelling the rest... boundaries. The same can be seen in the Large Intestine the lungs paired metal organ. It absorbs water and gets rid of the waste we don't need. People with weak metal elements tend to have difficulty detaching when its necessary due to the lack of boundaries. * I've also found that reaching a level of emptiness in meditation causes all this stuff to balance out on its own nicely as well.

If noticing patterns is a good way to learn something then I guess I'm learning. Today feels just like the last few "days after" when I got drained, as I'm very fatigued even though I'm off today and had a good nights sleep. This is what I've observed several times already. Meditate a lot, build up energy, feel very good. Girls get very chatty. I get very tired. I rest a bit until I have enough energy to practice again. I meditated a lot and do qigong. I feel good again. Girls get chatty again. I get tired again. Rinse and repeat lol, you get the idea haha.

Hey Liminal good question and this is actually something I have put some thought into as I have a deep interest in PTSD as I've had the opportunity to treat a few service men in the clinic for it. So worry vs fear. Hard to distinguish sometimes as they do have their similarities. Also with the earth/water controlling/insulting relationship it gets even more confusing. Is earth over controlling water, or is water insulting earth? lol. Actually the only way I was able to gain any useful insight into this beyond all the TCM books for PTSD and such was through organ meditation. This is what I found from my own personal meditation.... Worry is more on a mental level. Fear is more on an instinctual level. The inner smile and healing sound meditations were amongst the first qigong meditations that I learned so when I first began doing them the results were the most obvious as I had not yet cleared out any stuck emotional energy in the organs. I spent a week working on my spleen/earth and noticed I was always pondering pondering pondering. It was like I was over considering possible outcomes. "Well if I do this, this might happen but then on the other hand what if this happens instead, but then again that could happen if...." My mind was going a million miles an hour, but going in circles and getting no where. Another week I spent working on my kidneys/water and that was not a pleasant week at all. I turned into a paranoid freak. I was suspicious, edgy, paranoid, insecure, on edge, and expecting doom at any moment. And it was not rational, there was really nothing objective to be fearful about. It was as if I was stuck in fight or flight mode all the time. Though I need to specify I'm not a masochist. I was not doing these meditations to feel bad, but it was just a healing crisis as this stored up emotional energy was being released. Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. Now as to the insulting/controlling relationship. Lets say something starts off as fear but it grows and grows, well soon earth can not control water anymore and suddenly its like the water builds up to the point that it overflows the dike and then erodes the earth. So fear can lead to worry if it is large enough. Now you don't only feel fear on an instinctual level, but it gets your mind racing as well. So you have worry (mental) and fear (instinctual). Also you turn it around and what can start off as mental worry can become enough that earth over controls water and then you don't only worry on a mental-over thinking level but it can actually lead to fear (triggering the fight or flight) response too. So in most PTSD cases I've read about and seen its usually a combination of these two, but I'd say in most cases the chief culprit is fear, thus the T in PTSD. Trauma triggers the fear response, and thus that fear gets stuck in the kidney. So the kidney usually starts as the root in most PTSD cases but from there it can spread in all kinds of ways. Beyond what I was saying about waters relationship with earth it can also send "fear water" as opposed to "gentleness water" to the Liver in the generating cycle which in turn gets turned into anger by the liver instead of kindness. This is one reason why PTSD patients can have angry and violent outbursts. Also water can over control fire so with the heart fire subdued joy goes out of their life. So it really is a domino effect. But yes I do think in most cases to root is fear.

Oh I know your right I don't have to talk to them, but fist of all its just now starting to dawn on me that this can even be draining in the first place, and of course my habit is that when someone talk to me to talk back. Kind of like with my study of Buddhism learning about loving kindness to all sentient beings but then I see this gnat hovering next to my face yesterday and I swat at it simply out of habit, and then I'm like "oh wait, don't do that lol". Though I'm trying to console myself with having my energy drained off and being really tired with the thought "well I hope it somehow benefits them" lol. Yea its the morning of the next day and I'm still tired, woke up tired. It kind of reminds me this other phase I went through a while back where at first I feared I was suffering from random mood swings until I realized that when I was out in society that I had become very sensitive to other people's emotions. I got to the bottom of that by discovering that i had a little too much empathy. Who knows maybe the root of this is that I have too much benevolence lol. I mean I'd split my last piece of bread with someone if they came over and were hungry lol.

I think he does one pointed focus on the word "I" by repeating that over and over.

Yea there are certain colors you can wear. Also my five elements professor said that not only can you wear colors to adjust the elements but if you notice the colors people tend to predominately wear you can tell a lot about what elements dominate them. Yes you can use herbal medicines as well. I sort of touched on the foods in that thread about vegetarianism.

Since I'm kind of tired I'll just touch on metal real quick but I had done the lung/metal element meditation today after clinic and before my roommate got home. It helped me to stop feeling drained from clinic, and my roommate didn't linger today but pretty much said hi and bye before heading out to hang out with her bf. What I don't know is if she didn't linger to get more energy because of the lung meditation I did, or because I had already been drained good at clinic that there was nothing for her to want to take lol.

Ah, lol, unfortunately the astrological aspects of this I am not all that familiar with, but I'll share what little I do know about this. So the 12 year cycles of the Chinese calendar also go through a larger over all cycling through the 5 elements so for example a wood tiger would be born in 1974, and 12 years late a fire tiger would be born in 1986 (roughly). So aside from the animal aspect you have the element aspect. So from what little I know the element you are born under astrologically can present you various strengths and challenges. But I won't get into anymore of that as I don't feel knowledgeable enough to speak about too much astrological stuff. I do know that in the 5 element cycle of creation and control that using your example that yes using either wood or metal would work. Wood being the controlling cycle, and metal being the son of earth would help to deplete earth and thus weaken it. As far as fire goes I know that it generates earth so I'm not sure how it would be destructive to it?

can you clarify the question?

No matter what you do in life there will always be those who agree with you, disagree with you, and who don't care. "Truth" more often than naught is a point of view. The meth addict on the corner may think your mean when he asks you for meth money if you don't give it to him. If you were to give it to him, someone else might think you were bad for supporting his habit. Of course you shouldn't try to go out of your way to be mean to others, but ultimately you need to find your own way, and thus the irony of me telling you to find your own way (the tao that can be named is not the tao) lol.

yea sorry that's what I meant, I'm tired lol

Ah yes your probably wondering how a thread about Buddhism vs Taoism lead to this. Well the jist of it is that it was being discussed how Taoism is unique in that its older than Buddhism and came from the pre-solar/patriarchal period of mankind while Buddhism being younger came out of the Brahman culture that had already become solar/patriarchal. Weather you agree or not, at least that was how this topic came to be discussed. Personally I find it fascinating.

Well the key when doing mindfulness meditation is to observe what is in your mind but with out judgment. Also since some or many of the things that you do find make up your conditioning (not your true self) are not always very flattering you need to have a lot of loving-kindness and compassion for yourself, as you observer your thoughts. Detachment is the key, and if you can't detach enough then self compassion.

yea, I'll just use those lol

yea I'm using a computer but its hard to hear. Part of the reason I posted that video (aside from me feeling like that guy when I was asking you to turn it up) was so that I could play them side by side and compare. The video I posted is much louder. For the one you posted I have to keep my head very close to the computer :-(

My main sources for learning these types of meditations were Mantak Chia, Michael Winn, and Gilles Marin who wrote "Five Elements Six Conditions" where he teaches each element meditation in detail. Gilles Marin was a student of Chia who is very much a Chinese qigong teacher. http://www.amazon.com/Five-Elements-Six-Conditions-Psychology/dp/1556435932