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Maddie
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Everything posted by Maddie
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I'm not going to ditch Theravada lol, I'm just thinking out loud. I'm acknowledging some of your points if I think you have them because I'm just that way :-)
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I have noticed in Theravada circles physical exercise does not have a very high priority, but nothing really helps me feel better than after a good jujitsu class.
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I'm contemplating this at the moment. Like I said I am baffled that the Pali Canon says nothing about the side effects of meditation.
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I also became introduced to Buddhism in a college class, history of Japan. :-)
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I think the recent evolution of this thread could basically be summarized by the question do you have complete confidence in the Buddha and his teachings or not? I think it's an important question to think about before answering one way or the other.
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I still haven't found a good pizza recipe in there, but the search continues ;-) *but seriously, one thing that the Pali Canon does not seem to mention that I think is VERY relevant is relaxation induced anxiety!
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Obviously there is more than just clinging to explain phenomena. Clinging causes one kind of suffering. There of course is other terminology in the Pali Canon such as 1. Defilements 2. The five aggregates. 3. Feeling. 4. Mind (as in mindfulness of mind states) 5. The five defilements. ect... I feel like between the various terminology and explanations that the Buddha gave what you call "automatic reactions" is most likely covered. (I'm not continuing this to be argumentative or contentious. Rather I love to discuss the Pali Canon which does not happen much here. I am also fascinated in its modern day efficacy and applications, just fyi) :-)
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What did the Buddha say about earthquakes lol? Automatic reactions might be too broad a term for the purposes of this discussion. I wasn't talking about automatic physiological reactions that are necessary for survival. I was talking about emotional triggers, which would be clinging. Maybe we should narrow down terminology for the sake of clarification.
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Maybe we can put the four elements thing aside because in the greater scope of Buddhist practice it's not really that relevant. Buddhism isn't really concerned about how matter works, but with ending suffering. The Buddha was asked all sorts of questions that were irrelevant to ending suffering and he would not answer them because they were not important. Honestly I think we are basically saying the same thing and probably talking past each other by getting hung up on the terminology. The Buddha called it clinging which cases suffering. You call it something else, but the bottom line is that the result is the same. As far as believing if the Buddha's teaching works, I do. The reason is, is because after I left my abusive ex I could simply not afford therapy so I got into Buddhism instead. I'm not saying this is what should be done or not, but it was my only option as far as affordability went. Since that time I have changed very much for the better. The things that used to incapacitate me in the past are either non-issues now, or much less intense. This lines up with what the Buddha said about not simply taking his word for it but to try the teachings ourselves and see if they work. I have found that in my personal experience that they have and seem to continue to do so.
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Which mental models do you think he was working with that were pre-existing as opposed to what he came up with on his own? And what do you think the limits of those models are?
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I just thought of another way to explain why some emotions are clinging, or more specifically the example of emotional problems that we were speaking of earlier such as ptsd. PTSD is a reaction of the mind to stimulus the triggers past traumas that haven't been resolved. The fact that they are still in the mind causing problems as opposed to the experience coming and going like other events in life shows that by definition the mind is clinging or holding on to them or otherwise they wouldn't still be there. This is why in meditation the goal is to "let go". But again by definition we can't let go of something that we are not clinging to or holding.
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See this is why to me this is so complicated. On one hand to me emotions totally seem related to clinging as in clinging to various Sankharas. On the other hand I agree that not everything that the Buddha said is factually accurate and the reason this is relevant is that in the tradition he was basically made to seem like he knew everything. If he did not know as much as it is claimed he did in the Suttas then it makes one wonder what else might be wrong.
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I say this in all sincerity but I guess that would be meds are needed :-/
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Can you specify what it is that you find to be incomplete though and why?
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What do you feel is missing?
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I've always assumed (and maybe this is just me) that the "elements" back in the classical times were not seen in the same way as they are today in light of atomic theory. I have always seen them rather as states of matter, meaning solid (earth) liquid (water) gas (air) energy (fire) and not viewed in the same 21th century lenses that we see matter through today.
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I will ponder this. I've spent a lot of time in Theravada land and I'm sure you know how they view the teachings of the Buddha there.
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I guess we interpret our reading of the pali canon a bit differently 😌 I suppose if this conversation had happened a couple hundred years after the Buddha's death two new schools of Buddhism would have just formed LOL ðŸ¤
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Clinging is an automatic reaction.
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According to the technical definition of what the Buddha taught being triggered in a PTSD situation is clinging. The mind is clinging to those past events, and it is that conditioning which gets triggered. Granted the word clinging and craving is often misunderstood in the west, but it is more nuanced than most westerners realize. A better way to put it is unskillful clinging and craving is what causes suffering. Obviously desiring to end suffering in a skillful way is a good or noble desire.
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I'm 90% sure you're a troll, and not serious.
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Hey Zoe how are you doing? :-)
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I did, I'm confused.
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What is your theory then?
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