Maddie

I think the reason the Buddha used the raft metaphor as opposed to swimming is because the raft can carry one safely to the other shore but if one swims across a dangerous river one risks drowning.

The Buddha compared the Dhamma to a raft when once the other shore had been reached it made no sense to carry the raft around any longer. The other shore is the goal, not the raft that takes one there.

When I was younger I was duped too many times because I was very gullible. I wound up in cult like groups because I was afraid to ask questions to determine if claims made were true or not. Since then I have highly valued healthy skepticism. The Buddha said no teacher or teaching is above examination or questioning. When people would approach the Buddha and ask him why what he taught was true or correct he was always perfectly fine with explaining it to them so they would understand for themselves. He never said "how dare you question me" in fact he encouraged self inquiry, and healthy skepticism.

What exactly is "enlightenment" in Daoist terms?

Yes the Buddha laid out ways to know if someone was awakened or not.

It's not the thing that is the problem, its wanting the thing that is.

It is pretty easy to tell if someone is not enlightened though.

I ask because I've never read anything where the Buddha taught the skhandas in this manner, nor was the purpose for him teaching them to obtain powers.

What I'm asking is where do you get this information from? How do you know it is so?

What is your source text for this again?

Could it not be said that fear is the degree to which we are adverse to having our desires thwarted? If we desire to have and obtain when we fear loss. If we desire health and safety we fear the opposite of that.

Yes I think I agree that recognition is more of a third skhanda thing, and in general we seem to have more or less the same understanding of the functions of the skhandas, but I've never heard the skhandas taught as being sublet energy bodies before, but then again most of my study has been in and from the Pali Cannon so maybe that is the difference? I've mainly just understood the skhandas to be taught as functions and not "things".

Agreed. the path to enlightenment is not enlightenment.

I think maybe a good question to ask is what isn't enlightenment as there seems to be a LOT of misunderstanding about this. Probably the most common misconception about enlightenment in general and on this forum especially is that enlightenment means super powers and super powers mean enlightenment. The Buddha was actually not enthusiastic about super powers at all, and definitely did NOT teach that powers resulted in enlightenment, were the goal of enlightenment, or were the result of enlightenment.

May I ask what exactly you think the five skhandas are? The five skhandas as the Buddha taught are mostly functions that people mistake being the self. They are: 1. Form: or the body. 2. Perception or feeling: identifying a feeling (from the six senses) as pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. 3. Conceptions: what we understand things to be. 4. Volitions: the will or volitional actions, our judgments. 5. Consciousness. knowing what happened, happened. They are basically functions that we take to be a self but are not. They are not really taught as energy fields, and their purpose for being taught is to help one not mistakenly identify with any of them as a self. What do you think they are?

That might also be true, but none of those things are awakening and/or liberation either.

I did not say the first skhanda is matter. I said the first skhanda consists of matter. The first skhanda is the body. I did not say there is no self. I said the Buddha taught the five skhandas to teach was is not the self but often taken to be.

Yes but desirable states and achievements are not automatically the same thing as enlightenment. Being kind is a desirable action, but it does not mean that every person that is kind is enlightened.

I'm not really arguing what they are although the first skhanda is form or matter, not energy, but the point of the skhandas isn't what they are made of, but why they were taught. They were taught to show what is not self but is usually taken to be self.

I doubt this will be received well, but the five aggregates are the things that are not self but are commonly taken to be self. The problem being a false notion of self. Seeking powers is generally a desire of this notion of self and also strengthens the notion of self. So if the point of teaching the aggregates is to reduce the notion of self, seeking powers is the opposite of that.

This raises the question. Which figures throughout history seem the most likely to be enlightened? Bill Brodhi I think says that master Nan said that Confucius was enlightened along with Lao Tzu and Gotoma. I've pondered if Jesus was fully enlightened but there seem to be times that he lost his temper so that would seem to indicate he was not fully enlightened, though I think a steam winner or once returner is still capable of getting angry (though less so than the average person). One contemporary person that I wonder if they might be enlightened is Eckhart Tolle. One thing that makes me suspicious when someone claims to be enlightened says there is no test is the fact that the Buddha gave all kinds of criteria for knowing if someone is enlightened.

Thanks for sharing. It is interesting for sure. What was it about that, that got your attention personally?

Luke, I don't actually know where you're from but you give the best smackdowns in what I perceive to be British style. I visualize you doing a cut down in the Queens English and then saying "good day to you sir" before you turn around abruptly to walk off. ☺️

Lol no offense taken since I'm neither the Buddha nor the translator 😌 The word is Tanha which transliterated is thirst but I suppose some of the translators didn't think this transliteration conveyed the message well to the Western mind.

Well that's what the Buddha said. Desire is seeking something that you don't yet have and clinging is holding on to something that you already do have. What about the five aggregates got your attention?