C T

Wishing all Buddhists and everyone a most joyful, peaceful, practice-focussed year ahead! May the fruits of wisdom and compassion appear to you bountifully, and may all beings share in your accumulations. "Actually, in truth, there isn't anything to human beings. Whatever we may be, its only in the realm of appearances. However, if we go beyond appearances and see the truth, we will see that there isn't anything there but the universal characteristics ~ birth in the beginning, change in the middle, and cessation at the end. This is all there is. If we see that all things are like this, then no problems arise. If we understand this, we will experience continuous contentment and peace. If you let go a little, you will have little peace; if you let go alot, you will have a lot of peace. If you let go completely, you will have complete peace." ---- Ajahn Chah ('Letting go' here refers to the seeing clearly how sensual experiences usually vibrate latent tendencies which cause grasping/aversion to surface. When craving is pacified (let go of), then sensual experiences are simply what they are, the mere functioning of the truth of impermanence.) For those who are knowledgeable This is a state making for joy -- Living the life of Dhamma Under the Noble Ones perfected in mind. They clarify the true Dhamma Shining forth and illuminating it, Those light bringers, heroic sages, Endowed with vision, dispelling faults. Having heard their teaching, The wise, with perfect understanding By directly knowing the end of birth Come no more to renewal of being. Tashi Deleg! Sarva Mangalam! _/\_

The challenge seems to arise in the fact that most of those with authentic mastery tend to be 'hidden'. But not completely inaccessible. A close American-Vietnamese friend had 3 of his friends (martial artists all) visit a master in China to pay their respect and request teachings. He told me that they found the master, and one day, during a casual walk with him, the group saw the master picked up a stone, hurled it into the air, and then froze the bloody thing in mid air as it was falling back down. Unfortunately, its only hearsay, so take it with a bit of salt and sugar. Personally, as mentioned before, i know there are many, many people all over Malaysia who can demonstrate all kinds of super stuff, some tricksters, some seem authentic, and a handful who actually can deliver the goods. Again, these handful of adepts are usually quite hard to find, so one needs to know people who know people, and start the trail of discovery from there. There used to be a hermit i know who lives by the limestone caves somewhere in Perak, Malaysia, but this was like 20 or so years back, so not sure if he is still around. He had extraordinary healing abilities, and performs difficult exorcisms with great results. Some claim he can levitate, but this has not been verified. The next time i go back, i will do some checking and report back. Not sure when, maybe in a couple of months or so.

Does anyone here comprehend how vast Asia is, and how many adepts there are over there whose skills and mastery are on par, if not supersede John Chang's (benefit of doubt given that he indeed possesses some juice)? Its really a waste of time to regurgitate mo pai ala john chang as if this combination is the new viagra of the hype-filled world of nei gung or whatever Gung it should be appropriately called. If anyone has the financial means, do leave the confines of where you are cozy at, and take an extended tour of countries like Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia and Japan... just to expand one's horizons, and really see for oneself, up close, whats out there in terms of fruits of years of cultivation practices. Doing so really helps to overcome a lot of limitations and skewed views.

fathomless beauty elusive, ephemeral soap bubbles float by...

You too, Yascra.

Sorry, im not very clear about this point... you said you practiced Ngondro, right? Then you said you found out by experience what it was good for, yes? (Not sure if you were being cynical here). Then you said that since the practice which you did and found that it was good for something (which was not specified) that now you have to cope with the after-effects of having done the practice? Please help to clarify what was said, Yascra. Also interested to ask: How long did you engage with the Ngondro practice, like how many accumulations roughly? The Ngondro is not considered complete until at least the first round of accumulations are completed, which takes about 3 to 5 years outside of retreat, if im not mistaken. In full retreat it takes about 1 year, but i think this varies from school to school. As for your assumption towards the end of your post, well, i do not recall that there was any reference made to your lack of knowledge about the Ngondro, and if you had caught some whiff of it somewhere, then you might want to specify where you caught it. Finally, the (false seeing of) anger is only a reflection of your own issues around some unpleasant encounters you have had while engaging yourself with Vajrayana. Its really pointless to get angry over forum postings, but you would probably have your own take on this, so let it be. Im not gonna to-and-fro with you on this. For what its worth, i can totally see where you are coming from. I have personally seen, and have heard from sources, of some unsavoury activities over the years involving teachers, so i am not discounting any of your frustrations. The only thing i find is that hanging on to the past is purposeless cos all we end up doing is trying to seek resolution thru blame, which is like poisoning the self in the hope of neutralizing the seeming injustice which happened. It wont work. Its not my place to advice you, so please try not to read anything negative into what has been said. Oh, one last point: we are specifically discussing the preliminary practice of Vajrayana Ngondro here. Not any other preliminary practices of other traditions. Edit to add: If there are any more assumptions you would like to put forward, please feel free to pm. Its not nice to encroach on this thread any more than it already has.

Its exactly as you said, Apech. In fact, Sogyal Rinpoche says it all the time that the Ngondro is a complete practice in itself, capable of leading to the fruition of Buddhahood without any other auxiliary support being required. I think if there is any confusion around this, it stems from the mistaken view that 'preliminary' means 'lesser/basic/beginner stuff' and those that take a shine to the 'higher, more advanced practices of atiyoga/great perfection' (which sounds pretty exotic and captivating) tend to allow for a slight misunderstanding to arise as a result. It baffles me how some teachers (presumably in the US) actually tell their students to forget about Ngondro. New initiates at that. Strange advice if you ask me. Never heard similar encouragement being given here in Europe. If anyone has, i'd be interested to hear. Enough said, i guess we have deviated far enough from the OP. Apologies, all my fault. Kind words of encouragement from Teacher:

If there is a struggle to form a bond with a human Guru, we have the option of choosing a symbolic root Guru. Some people use photos, holy objects, etc. Human gurus are not 'must haves'. You are right, the Guru is just a representation of the enlightened principle of inherent buddha nature, which, as Apech mentioned, is something we train in by using the generation, completion and dedication of merit practices which is the Ngondro path.

Well said, Jeff. Thats why in all the Ngondro practices among the different schools, they all have one thing in common, which is paying Homage to the Guru as the opening.

And without the crucial grounding in the preliminary practices, those who dive headlong into the "I am beyond distraction" meme are only playing make-believe. (not everyone, but safe to say 999 out of a thousand).

Are there any notes or teachers' advice (not just 1 or 2) saying that Ngondro is not essential for those entering the Dzogchen path? I'm really interested because the few Dzogchen teachers and senior students i have listened to, and read from, like Tulku Urgyen, Khenpo Choga, Jamgon Kongtrul, Chagdud Tulku, Sogyal Rinpoche, Dzogchen Rinpoche, they all point out otherwise. I cannot fathom how the Guru/disciple relationship (guru yoga, which is fundamental to Dzogchen) can be cemented, and devotion aroused gradually, without first establishing a long practice in the preliminaries. More so in the West ~ its almost impossible for a Western student to be able to immediately form a strong bond upon entering the path, and be able to generate the necessary devotion to Guru, Yidam and Khandro without undertaking the practices of Ngondro. He or she wouldn't have a clue what all the fuss is about, general observation has shown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0umh7myGulw

Ok!

On a number of retreats i have attended in the past, i have heard of participants reporting such visions. They tend to get quite animated, speak about it all day long to anyone willing to listen, intending to seek confirmation that they'd attained certain levels, or had blockages removed resulting in said visions, and tend to become adamantly convinced that some very profound thing had occurred. They would even stubbornly insist on personal time with the visiting Teacher to verify their clinging to said experience, which was quite funny, i thought. As i recall, Teachers mentioned not to read too much into these sorts of experiences. They are only useful for verifying that certain practices (which a student have received empowerment for) are progressing on the right track. If they occur independently, or spontaneously, free of any ascribed sadhanas, which they sometimes do, then its viewed no differently than any other sensory apprehension, according to same Teachers. Then the advice given is to simply let them come, watch the display, and when the vision ends, just allow for that, without attempting to regroup the mind to try to recreate the same circumstances which brought the experiences about. I cant say much more because i never quite got past the novice stages of preliminary practices yet. Hanging in there though.

it might surprise you to find out that cow dung houses actually exist.

Reflecting on commentaries and words of advice in written works does not necessarily mean following these writers' paths. You dont want enlightenment. You dont want to follow a path laid down by others. You dont believe books are any help. Why then are you here? As per your own wish, why not simply drop all external seeking, and depend solely on your own distillation of a path exclusively tailored to your requirement? Dont even bother to ask any questions. Because any feedback you receive will be just be a facsimile if you choose to dwell on that feedback for even a second. To stay real, just watch everything come and go, look at how images form and dissolve in your mind, drop all contextual constructs, dissolve all labels, disband all relativity. See what remains.

Happy Fishing, Z!! May the big bad bass bite. and Best wishes to the new monitor.

Was he as big as a city bus too?? (sorry x 2)

Excellent. Much appreciated.

I posted that with the hope of letting the OP understand there are others who are also experiencing similar issues, and how such are addressed from one viewpoint only. I did not mention that whatever the monk advised was the ultimate solution to the problem. Its easy to say dissolve things into emptiness. Just not sure how helpful such opinions are.

What's a good remedial program for such an affliction, in your opinion?

Offence? None taken, G. Be great to get together some day for tea and chat! You bet!!

This is why i will try to absent myself more from these discussions from now on. It really serves no useful purpose in terms of the intention to reach some accord on the understanding of how to promote and sustain goodwill, peace and understanding, so such discussions actually go against the grain of Dharma practice. Sometimes it punctuates the mind quite similar to the sensation of dragging fingernails across a blackboard.