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That stage is simply the process of eradicating views that are predicated on the substantive existence of a self. It is said that such a correction brings about the extinguishing of all dualistic notions such as 'self and other', 'relative and ultimate', 'birth and death', 'living zen and dead-tree zen', and so forth... Definitions are quite limited. I think with enough investigation and contemplation, the practitioner who follows the right methods of investigative insight will eventually experience for him/herself the process leading to aforementioned cessation of dualistic notions. It would be interesting to then discover what happens when clinging is dissolved. What remains?

By transcendence, i was referring to the stage where an adept gains complete cessation of clinging to misapprehended views regarding both. In the process of ending erroneous views, eventually all notions surrounding what is a body, and what is a mind will be corrected, and their lack of a permanent, substantial existence will eventually be clarified.

You can take this issue up with Khenpo Chogal Rinpoche if you like, since the article above is, if you read the first line clearly, specifically directed to practitioners of secret mantra, or Great Perfection, aka Dzogchen. I was merely presenting some points which may bring some clarity to your query, however indirect they may be. As for the unnecessariness of involvement in sutra and mantra for a dzogchen practitioner, i think the view you hold is very much misplaced. Until a practitioner has perfected non-distraction in the View, he or she will still have to traverse the path from the 1st vehicle up (to the 9th) by utilising Ngondro as the provisional practice to gradually clarify the definitive View. Of course there will be some teachers out there who tell their students to disregard the Ngondro, but its clear this creates quite a bit of confusion in the students. This is normal due to the lack of emphasis on first developing a strong foundation, which is basically what i think Longchenpa was hoping to achieve with his 'Treasure Trove of Scriptural Transmission'.

Your Q: "Is it possible to neglect the bodies transformation when just concentrating only on mind yoga? If the mind and body are inseparable, wouldn't the transformation of the mind also lead to the transformation of the body?" I think it depends greatly on the individual. However, in most, if not all Vajrayana paths, there is quite an emphasis on balancing the two levels of practice, up to a point. From what i hear, when the result or fruit of practice is attained, then both mind and body is transcended.

A practitioner of Secret Mantra Vajrayāna and particularly of the Great Perfection will study and practice the Bodhisattva-caryāvatāra as an enhancement [’bog ’don gyi tshul du] for his practice and also as a method for clearing away obstacles [bgegs bsal gyi tshul du] that arise in the course of his practice. Thus, the gradual path of sūtra and the instantaneous path of Secret Mantra can be practiced as a perfect unity, seamlessly integrated with one another. The teachings of the Great Perfection train you in the perfect view while at the same time the Bodhisattva-caryāvatāra educates you in the perfect conduct of the six transcendental perfections. Sūtra or Sūtrayāna is also called the ’causal vehicle of (the six) transcendental perfections’ [rgyu pha rol phyin pa’i theg pa], while tantra is called the ’resultant vehicle of mantra’ [’bras bu sngags kyi theg pa]. The Buddhist tradition actually speaks of ’three causal vehicles’ [rgyu mtshan nyid kyi theg pa]. These refer to the śrāvakayāna, the pratyekabuddhayāna [rang rgyal ba’i theg pa], and the bodhisattvayāna. The followers of the causal vehicles [rgyu’i theg pa / rgyu mtshan nyid kyi theg pa] practice as their path the causes (for enlightenment), which are the six transcendental perfections [phar phyin drug rgyu lam du byed pa]. The followers of the resultant vehicle, also called the ’vehicle of secret mantra’ [gsang sngags kyi theg pa], practice the fruition as the path [’bras bu lam du byed pa]. As Düjom Rinpoche explained: Therefore, in the vehicle of attributes [mtshan nyid kyi theg pa], mind nature is merely perceived as the causal basis for buddhahood. Since it is held that buddhahood is obtained through the condition that the two accumulations increasingly multiply, and since the purifying teachings [rnam byang gi chos] which form the causal basis of nirvāṇa are made into the path, it is called the causal vehicle. Therein, a sequence in which cause precedes result is admitted. According to the vehicle of mantra, on the other hand, mind nature abides primordially and intrinsically as the essence of the result [’bras bu’i ngo bo], endowed with kayas and wisdom [sku dang ye shes kyi bdag nyid can]. Since the aim [thob bya], (mind nature), thereby exists within oneself from the very present moment, it is the ground. By recognizing it, temporary and momentary stains are removed. Thus, the recognition is the path [ngo shes par byed pa’i cha nas lam]. When this ground is actualized [mngon du gyur pa’i cha nas], it is the fruition. Since the sequence in which cause precedes result is not really distinguished therein, it is called the resultant vehicle. After genuninely recognizing the essence of one’s own mind, practicing the commitment [dam bca’ ba] of bodhicitta becomes a reality. Growing increasingly confident in one’s bodhicitta commitment also greatly enhances one’s practice of the buddha nature. One’s bodhicitta commitment and the recognition of buddha nature mutually enhance one another. Genuine recognition of buddha nature is the practice of knowledge [shes rab] or wisdom [ye shes] and gives rise to a natural compassion [snying rje]. Knowledge and compassion inspire and enhance one another. This mutually enhancing quality of knowledge and compassion sets in motion the natural turning of the wheel of dharma. Great compassion allows knowledge [shes rab] to dawn; great knowledge [shes rab] allows genuine compassion to dawn. This illustrates very clearly the interdependent nature [rten ’brel] of knowledge and compassion. The teachings of the Buddha all point to emptiness, and emptiness [stong pa nyid] is recognized by wisdom [ye shes]. Yet within this recognition of emptiness, there is no distinguishing or focus upon any subject [yul can] or any object [yul]. It is a non-dual wisdom [gnyis su med pa’i ye shes], a wisdom unconditioned by perceptual constraints of a subject-object dichotomy. As long as a perceptual dichotomy of a subject and an object exists, emptiness [stong pa nyid] has not been recognized. A teacher of sūtra must know the distinction between the provisional meaning [drang don] and the definitive meaning [nges don]. Düjom Rinpoche provides a very clear definition of these two levels of teachings: The reality of all phenomena, the expanse of just what is [de bzhin nyid dbyings], the luminous realization of mind-nature—naturally pure and unchanging, beyond birth, arising, ceasing, and abiding—this space-like essence is the definitive meaning. All the teachings [bka’] and treatises [bstan bcos] which reveal it are subsumed [khongs su bsdu ba] within the definitive meaning. All apparitions of reality [chos can snang tshod] that appear dream-like and manifesting as diverse, successive forms such as those of arising and ceasing, coming and going, purity and impurity, aggregates [phung po], elements [khams], and sense fields [skye mched], which are all appraised and exaggeratedly indicated [sgro btags] by a succession of words, thoughts and expressions are called the provisional meaning. All the teachings and treatises which reveal them are subsumed within relative truth [kun rdzob]. For example, those which boast in words, expressions, and thoughts that mind-nature is space-like are relative truth, whereas the fundamental nature [gshis] of ultimate reality, the definitive meaning, is genuine [yang dag pa]. If one asks what are the sūtras of definitive meaning and what are the sūtras of provisional meaning? Then those sūtras which are taught in order that one might enter the path [lam] are called the provisional meaning, and those sūtras which are taught in order that one might enter the result [’bras bu] are called the definitive meaning. The sūtras which teach of emptiness [stong pa nyid], of that which is signless [mtshan ma med pa], aspirationless [smon pa med pa], not manifestly conditioned [mngon par ’du mi ’byed pa], uncreated [ma skyes pa], unoriginated [ma byung ba], insubstantial [dngos pa med pa], without a self [bdag med pa], without sentient beings, without life itself, without individuals, without an owner [bdag po med pa] and without any properties even as far as the approach to liberation [rnam par thar pa’i sgo] are called the definitive meaning. In short, the fundamental natural state [gshis kyi gnas lugs] and the sūtras which reveal it are said to be the definitive meaning and the sūtras of this (definitive meaning), while all those teachings which guide the intellect of sentient beings by many methods to the means of entering that fundamental nature [gshis], revealing the impure bewilderment [’khrul pa], its classifications and so on, are called the provisional meaning and the teachings of the provisional meaning. (Excerpts from Khenpo Chogal's Oral Explanation of the Bodhisattva-charyavatara)

Hi Steve, Kelsang Chukie Tethong's CD 'Voice from Tara' is quite good. You might like it. (I like both of them )

True that.

Good article, and definitely relevant, Apech. I like the point which says that those who get stuck in the non-conceptual states ending up in the formless realms. Its quite a vital point too. Truth is, such a tendency (to get lodged in those states because its quite spaciously, enticingly pleasant) is quite common among those who venture into meditative work. This is a factor addressed by my teachers who encouraged alternating between relative practices and dissolving same in order to rest the mind in the absence of meditative activity, and then returning to the former, and so on. Doing this is a good way to ensure that one does not get stuck (spaced out) in formless absorption only. I know of a few dzogchen students who struggle with this issue due to their misunderstanding which causes aversion to conceptual practices to arise and overtake their minds.

YA!

@ Mr. Stimpy... a helpful book for exploring this subject ~ http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/ornament-stainless-light

Thats true, words and conceptual frameworks are needed in the interim. And TTB is a good place to polish same, dont you think?

In the primordial state, emptiness and clarity are already conjoined. Always already that. This 'going deeper' is just how we choose to conceptualize the path of union to bring more understanding. I think in reality, no such process happens.

Yes and no, in my case. For example, sometimes we come into the presence of holy beings or realized masters, and the mind goes into some state of no thoughts arising, or all thoughts dissolving (same thing) but we still experience, and we still see, but the experience and the seeing which arise is not tainted by any deluded overlapping thoughts, just present awareness happening. Because its untainted, the experience transpires as bliss, and the seeing transpires as light. When we find ourselves in the presence of heightened awareness (like deep love or moments of infatuation, for example) we find that often we tend to drop the mental/emotional guardrails. The temporary abandoning of these ego-shields allow us to see things extra clear, as if aglow even. So i guess one could say that the basis of everything is simply light, but because we have habits which get in the way of recognition, we tend to miss seeing this in others in our daily interactions. It could be said that if the basis is not pure light, then clear seeing, untainted by past imprints, can not arise. Hope that makes sense...

Spiritual light is the light which brightens awareness enough to dissolve conceptual frameworks, so that what remains is just light, pristine awareness, empty cognizance, direct seeing, direct connection with sounds and objects, not filtered thru the senses which means the complete letting go of names, memory and labels. Objects are seen in their own light of reality, without being tainted or superimposed over with our deluded mental identifications. You can call it 'spiritual light' but basically its clarity merged with emptiness, both functioning evenly, without any hint of fluctuation. This is how buddhas' body, speech and mind is, unwaveringly constant, whereas we only get glimpses of such enlightening states now and then. There are other interpretations, i'm sure.

Not just shamatha, but that in tandem with vipassana is my understanding. Alternating short moments of intensified visualizations, mantras, prostrations, and then with a sudden "PHAT" rest in the ensuing naked awareness. Short moments, repeated many, many times. In Tibetan they like to say, 'Gom' to describe the meditative process. Gom means 'getting used to'. In this sense, the student is encouraged to get used to those short moments of recognition. All the conceptual work to be done in the relative field, and the moments of simply resting and release are 'taste/glimpses/recollection' of rigpa. With time given to practice, a sort of conjoining between conceptual efforts and resting in rigpa happens. It is said that the dharmakaya begins to dawn at that stage of one's progress.

Nature's womb-like sanctuaries. Marvellous!

O yes, i agree! It was just something trivial i read, and wanted to share how something useful like Feng Shui can be used for holding a whole nation to ransom due to ignorance and superstition. Was such unscrupulous behaviours present when those lofty and holy sites were being built, i wonder, and if they were, would that affect the energy of the place in any extent? What about the labourers and workmen, what sort of conditions were they exposed to? Just some thoughts which crossed my mind, thats all. Nothing serious. Sorry for disrupting your noble aims.

Feng Shui is one of the best ways to make money in Hong Kong, but not in ways easily grasped in the West... http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LL03Ad01.html dragon energy = BIG $$$$ !!!!

im faster!

If anyone wants to film me working with a cleaver, super-speed slicing, dicing and chopping (blindfolded even) please PM. No charge.

_/\_

that is wise.

The issue that often troubles practitioners who have tasted the essence of mind is that the taste does not last. Thats where the 100k/million recitations and repetitions of ordinary preliminary practices and mantras come into the equation. The recognition is immediate, but the gradated sustaining of this recognition needs to be conceptually directed towards stable awareness.

Power to do what, exactly? If you get a chance, go for an eye-opening trip to places like Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia. You will see all kinds of weird and wonderful claims by professing shamans and so on. Some of their work will make you want to believe beyond any reasonable doubt. One very open demo is when devotees of a certain religion pierce themselves with all kinds of stakes, spears etc and have hundreds of hooks embedded in their bodies, with chains attached, pulling chariots for miles to get from one place to another. Apparently anyone can do it, if they wish. Is this power? Of course, there are various other examples, like working with charms, black magic, exorcisms, and all that jazz. It can be very interesting to see all these things live. By visiting these places, it will give you more scope to understand what demonstrations of power really mean. How the minds of people become drawn to such things, like a sort of mass hypnotic trance thing. If a large group of people can be swayed easily, imagine how little it takes to sway individuals.