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Once in a while, people get to experience, metaphorically speaking, what it is like to be in the center of the cyclone... and they get perturbed by the utter stillness. Being unable to comprehend this new-found state, the normal, reflex act would be to mentally dart here and there, simply to try to regain equilibrium, or to try to make sense of the n'er-before-experienced stillness. Instead of releasing into this stillness, they grasp at what was, shun what will be, thus compelled by the imagination to miss that which is. Watch this watermelon... something might click for you... (or not)

At the level where i can see, life mimics consciousness... after life, that which is called 'death' would then appear to mimic some other state. I used this term 'mimic' because there appears to be a mystical state of union where these two grand illusions can be seen through, and many get glimpses of this state from time to time, yet its wise to not 'chase' this as if its THE ultimate finale... there is no finale, it appears, because its all simply a flux of potentiality, seemingly. Unfortunately, lifelong contemplations will still not yield any concrete answers, so the best thing is to go easy on the mind, and dwell on more soothing reflections. Many mystics have died trying to unravel this subject with much frustrating results, so why should anyone attempt to follow this route is beyond reason.

One simply has to take one's hat off to this guy... he was the latter-day 'king' of spiritual spin, spawning a whole new plethora of wide-eyed, chilled-out, cluelessy folks who incessantly sip chai, wear silly garbs, and mentally and physically gyrate to classical sitar tunes. In fact, Osho was a big fan of the legendary sitar maestro Baba Alauddin Khan. Ahh... never mind, just a bit of Osho trivia is all. Short tribute to Baba: Like Seth, i too was once an ardent reader of his 'works'. Back then, no 'spiritual' gathering was complete without tossing Osho's name around, and his writings were always a great way to strike up kinship with the ardent followers of pop pseudo-spirituality at that time.

Hmm... sounds very Osho-ic.

Its no wonder the older generation of Tibetan masters refused to open up the teachings to simply anyone who requested them. Since you appear confused, there is really no point in going further or else this may lead to unpleasant exchanges, as evidenced in the past on numerous occasions. Please, as a final note, dont make 'clear light' into some sort of super-mystical state... its not. And i am saying this just for the purpose of clarification. 'Clear light' is simply a term given to those moments when one 'recognizes' without any traces of conceptualization of that which is being recognized. Its something that is ever-present -- see it for what it is, and one is free from that precise imprint, fail to see it, and that same 'seeing' takes shape as thoughts, concepts, feelings, formations, and so on, from the very subtle to actual manifestation in the grosser states. From the Dalai Lama: "With respect to identifying the Clear Light in the Great Perfection, when for instance, one hears a noise, between the time of hearing it, and conceptualizing it as such and such, there is a type of mind devoid of conceptuality but nevertheless not like sleep or samadhi, in which the object is a reflection of this entity of mere luminosity and knowing. It is at this point that the basic entity of the mind (clear light) is identified." These are not mere speculations. They are observable facts, but if you want to dismiss them because it does not agree with your current investigations, then i am happy to let it go without any hesitation, because either way, whether i speak from my own experiences (which you will say does not coincide with actual teachings and is therefore a jumble of new age nonsense) or quote traditional texts (which you will then say is nothing more than parroting some old, outdated scrolls and therefore invalid), there seems to be no potential to forward this matter, hence we might as well drop this discussion. Funny you should deem this approach of yours as some kind of 'straight talk'.

Its apparent there is no longer any reasonable purpose to continue the discussion.

Textual knowledge? Beliefs? Not entirely. Everything that happens at death is simply a magnification of all the gross and subtle 'little deaths' people can observe each moment if they choose to. Each in and out breath is a cycle of a miniature bardo, if you will. Those who practice effectively with their breath meditation get to establish the ground for the clear light to arise, while those who do not have the capacity or are not taught this, or simply take the breath for granted, cannot ever grasp the opportunity to establish the habit of 'small liberations' that these mindful awareness practices (with the breath) can present. The accumulative effects of these 'small liberations' will lead to bigger things... With breath steadied, mindful attention becomes effortless. If you think its textbook stuff, try it and see. And, as a reminder, we all know that mind is clearest just before deep sleep, right? Same thing. No hope involved, simple observation will show this.

Because the clear light is brightest/most luminous during that bardo phase. If there is steadfast recognition, whatever appears then is immediately released/dissolved without effort. Spontaneously. Those who are not practiced enough will be carried away by all the displays, thinking still in dualistic modes. Those who train now to recognize mind essence, getting into the habit of not being distracted by mind arisings, technically should be able to remain in this sort of steadfast mental poise as death nears, but its hard to tell for sure because many are able to disguise their (lack of) accomplishments for the mind is full of deceptiveness. This is why i said earlier that the only way to determine whether a person's spiritual practice has been fruitful or fruitless is to observe how he or she deals with the onset of that bardo. Dzogchen, in part, aids the practitioner to recognize mind essence -- and retreats are, in many ways, to help stabilize this recognition. Imagine doing hundreds of thousands of mantras, yidam practices and prostrations... these are all tools for transforming the mind, with the noble aim of uprooting even the subtlest habitual tendencies for self-deception.

Excellent reminders, Seth, as always. Gratitude! As Padmasambhava remarked once, "Do not seek to cut the root of phenomena, cut the root of the mind." In Tibet, they say mind is the king responsible for everything -- kun je gyalpo -- the universal ordering principle. Buddha said, "Nothing whatsoever is to be clung to as I or mine. Whoever realizes this has realized all the teachings."

And my point is that it can be seen, but not by a 'you/i', because where there is a 'you/i' then it follows that there is 'birth/death', and all the rest. Birth/death are the two shadows of a self, each present at once, not one first, then the other.

Thats the whole point behind why i entered this silly discussion... you and i dont know if my mind is really 'soothed' until death reaches me, isnt it? I can make all the claims of being free and liberated and what not, but when death finally approaches -- thats the crunch to really see if all these time have i been deluding myself or have i really overcome the thought-based, ignorance-based duality of birth and death.

In my experience, the instructor/instructions are secondary. Its the individual that matters most. Two trainees under the same guide in the same retreat can come away with different levels of realizations -- one can ride the wave to greater shores, the other could well drown. They both entered the retreat with great confidence in their own beliefs and swear allegiance to their guru. Hehe... life is like this.

That kind of bliss is built around false premises, so its not real bliss as such. Like fool's gold... only looks good on the surface.

Actually, if each time a seasoned biker gets on a bike in a totally mindful fashion, its similar to learning to ride all over again. And its good, because then one does so in a completely conscious fashion. Accidents usually happen when people do things on auto mode. One can choose to be more conscious even of those things that one thinks ought to have become habitual responses. In fact, it is those precise things that one ought to exercise even more mindful attention over. How else can one rectify one's being to be free from habitual tendencies and behavioral responses?

Even those who are guided thru one year retreats have 'crashed' after completing it, so its not like guided retreats offer any sort of guarantee against any negative post-retreat happenings. It gets even dicier when people attempt the 'do-it-themselves' route. The great thing about Dzogchen is that one gets tools on how to utilize/transmute those energies that abound during the crashes to aid in awakening. Its like the greater the crash, the more awakened one can get, that kind of way.

There is no such thing as a soothed mind in ignorance. You saying knowing isnt just in the head... but you dont say where else knowing can occur. Enlighten me please?

Every thing, every motive, every question you pose, here, and there, is in your head. Where else would it be? And, btw, turmoil and conflict is not merely restricted to the realm of linguistic mesmerizations. When you get it, you will feel it. Its more than seeking to know. What is there is beyond knowing.

Liberation? Liberation from what? The aim of my practice was to be liberated from a mind that was constantly in turmoil, displaced by too much speculation, and i have, to a degree, achieved to a state free of any worries, in other words, a soothed mind. If i am able to maintain this state, there is very little need to make any new speculations about this and that -- this and that being what Namdrol having been tormented by, until now, and many others here, as well. Do you understand the position of a mind that is continuously soothed, L7S? Imagine, all those who practice for umpteen years, only to realize they are still carrying subtle guilt which really mucks them up. For those who seriously cultivate their subtle spiritual bodies, even a little muck can be felt to be tremendously 'heavy', i am sure you are aware of this. Lastly, Its not about gambling on what might happen at death -- its about dying to every transition, to awaken afresh each time. It seems a good way to end the accruing of new karma. If this isnt good attitude, have you better suggestions?

What is the precise factor which determines if what one practices will lead to liberation? There is no way to determine for certain. I feel deeply that only as death approaches one knows in confidence whether one's cultivation, all the effort of one's spiritual life, will carry one forward with ease, or with apprehension. It is like anticipating the sunrise, some look forward to it, while some tend to shun it. And yet, those who shun daylight, they are also catered for, for the night brings mystery, and shadows, and is full of spaciousness and potential for the next phase, the next period. As of now, there is really no benefit to say who is right, or which view is the correct one. Better off directing one's thoughts to those things that soothes one's mind.

Hi Barbara, Sincerely hope you will slowly reflect on this article for i think it may help some. (Incidentally, Jennifer Lauck was also 'awakened' thru a near-fatal auto accident) http://www.andrewholecek.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/BD-Sp12_08_forum.pdf Blessings!

http://www.weirdasianews.com/2008/12/22/qian-hongyan-basketball-girl/

Good questions.

Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, widely revered as the greatest Tibetan yogic master of this age, during the later part of his teaching life, sometimes used to fall into sleep midway thru his talks, albeit for only a few minutes each time. Hearing accounts from the current generation of Tibetan teachers who love to share stories about DKR, they say each time he awoke, he would, without hesitation, continue teaching from where he left off, in a seamless sort of way. This video was made the year prior to his passing away. He had to be supported to the teaching seat by 2 attendants, yet, towards the end of the video, just before commencing his talk, the smile on his face says all there is to say about his level of realization...