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I am sorry if my words went across as dishonest. I am a little baffled... please help me understand: You said ultimately its all mind, then you said mind training alone will not suffice. I am wondering if you could perhaps explain a bit more?

Since we cannot really determine the precise moment where and when a breakthrough will occur, its good to remain patient and persevere with the specific (buddhist) practice that one feels great affinity for, even though tangible changes are not experienced within the expected span of time one thinks one should see results. Sometimes we could be practicing for long periods and when nothing happens, we get deflated and lose motivation. This is not very helpful. So its better to practice with the least amount of expectation. Breakthroughs are more likely to occur outside of formal practice, for example, during periods of translating mindful awareness to daily life, outside of normal dedicated periods of cultivation.

Buddhism does mention samadhi and siddhis, but it pays to keep in mind what the true purpose of Buddhadharma serves. Its not accurate to say that cultivating mind alone is only half the path. One must practice within one's capabilities and life circumstance. The more esoteric, energetic aspects of Dzogchen, for example, is not meant to be dabbled with, and requires great commitment. So for most people, mind cultivation would be the most viable and safe option. Many practitioners have vast scope for making swift progress on the path, but some of these individuals have family and life commitments, so they can hardly be expected to surrender everything for yogic training. Hence they can still avail of other means of mind training methods to achieve the same profound results. Very often masters can identify who these individuals are and where their potential lies, but they simply refuse to encourage them because the masters know and apply skillful means to select who is ripe to take up more esoteric practices and who is not.

If we can learn to see things for exactly what they are, without adding or taking away anything, that to me is Right View. Right View is the first and most vital point. Its not so much about seeing what direction one is headed for, but to have the capacity to understand and view life in a such a way where even if we find ourselves lost, as some of us sometimes experience, with the right attitude, we can have the tenacity and fortitude to strive on even when the chips are down. We will also learn that there will always be more options than dead-ends. You are correct ~ Right View in itself does not calm the waves. What it does is it lets a person have the insight to realize that the raging seas and rivers are subject to calming themselves after each storm, and if the mental preparations are in place to learn from each experience, we will develop the mindful awareness to see each storm as an opportunity to befriend our fears, phobias and aversions. To achieve this, Right View is supported by the other seven spokes of the complete Dharma Wheel. If there is no rain, what's the use of carrying around an opened umbrella? But umbrellas are almost useless in fierce winds, so we learn to close the umbrella and seek for appropriate shelter. Its very simple to practice Right View really. It helps one to recognize and implement the correct antidote for each specific circumstance. This is very crucial... the same antidote can turn out be poison when applied without proper knowledge and diagnosis. In the same way, if a person is happy and fulfilled, then of what use is a wish-fulfilling gem? Sometimes though, we need to recognize the signs of when a storm is brewing, and how best to prepare ourselves. That alone gives us a leading edge in tackling life's challenges. It reduces the overwhelming factors that tend to deflate others who happen to be less well-prepared. In short, thru cultivating the correct way of seeing things, the odds of being taken by surprise are reduced greatly. With minimal surprises as we navigate thru life, ease will permeate the being naturally. With habitual tasting of the state of ease, slowly, one will forget tensions and anxieties. As tensions and anxieties diminish, so will primordial fears of old age, sickness and death be reduced. If we were to take this sequence to its logical conclusion, we will eventually find the serenity and calm, desirable states which dispels all obstacles to wisdom, which is the prerequisite to attaining continuous insights into the unending recognition of the natural state of self-liberation. Even if liberation does not result as one comes to death's door, at the very least, we will obtain a favorable re-birth.

I think on occasion i tend to forget that buddhist teachings are nothing more than seeds to be sown in the mindstream. They are not the fruits of realization, and i am sure most, if not all the buddhists here know that for a fact. The potential for hindrance will show if we assume the teachings can be anything other than methods and means. The Buddha himself said so. The process of engaging with the teachings can be a tedious one. It takes the practitioner down innumerable avenues which are pregnant with hopes and fears, disappointment after disappointment, and heartache after heartache. But the truth, i think, is that even if one does not engage with the teachings, such meetings with the hardships of life is still quite inevitable for the general population of beings ~ beings here include all beings in all classes of this so-called existence. In this instance, i feel it seems more reasonable to create some sort of premise of navigation which can make the journey a little less daunting. Just imagine for a moment drifting down a raging river with no support whatsoever, and then suddenly a raft comes along and we quickly grab on to it, no matter how rickety it may be ~ finding this raft does not suddenly calm the raging river, but in a moment of jubilation, the drifter (me) could disassociate with the immense challenges of the immediate situation, and with the aid of this raft, find that there is a better chance of navigating to safety. A momentary comforting space is sometimes all we need to transform or release the knots we have tied around ourselves. Fortunately nature provides us with ample gifts of rafts, but sometimes, without having habitually sown the appropriate seeds, the possibility of not being able to recognize these rafts when they present themselves become greater than if we have had maintained an ongoing conceptual understanding of what the rafts look like in the first place. If we do not do this, then sometimes we mistake other things that float by to be rafts, and this could mean the difference in reaching the farthest shores or simply getting caught in more debris than necessary. An obvious problem arise when people assume too much and place false expectations on themselves and the teachings when they begin to take Buddhism to the level of practice pass the stage of philosophical understandings. Practice here means actually developing a correct understanding (Right View) of what a raft actually is, and how to use it practically and appropriately. Nothing more. To assign any other premise to this, like making assumptions that the raft is the shore, or its made of gold and has four engines that provide a thousand siddhis, is to once again fall into a despondent position where one gets trapped within the cycle of clinging and aversion, hopes and fears, over and over. To conclude, i would say that the Buddhist teachings for me represents the most conclusive blueprint of what actually this raft looks like. Its up to me then to recognize what it is when it presents itself as i bop along on this raging river of life. It would be total folly if i make the mistake of thinking that i can actually sit on the blueprint instead of the raft. "It is not important whether you walk on water or walk in space. The true miracle is to walk on earth." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh

Sorry to disappoint, Tulku, but there's no history in other forums between Alwayson and me. This is the only forum i am active in.

Crazy wisdom is just that... crazy, but restrained in some ways. Some need to relate to it, and thats fine, but it hardly bears any semblance to 'ultimate'.

I liked you conclusion, but i find the 3rd party opinion cited above to be slanted. Can any on-line community ever be non-verbal i wonder... The day may come when we can all have virtual views into how each of us spend our days, and see what one another's practice routine is all about, but until that day dawns, its unavoidable that communication here remains on a verbal scale. Hope you are enjoying your 'you' time!

You basically accused people here of being quacks (according to the thread title). Instead of showing reasons to back up your accusation, you ranted at Xabir throughout for misinterpreting certain ideas you hold to be true, but not necessarily seen to be such by others. Maybe for this reason Pero said you presented notions that were not based on truthfulness.

Your thread title was misleading then.

There were a lot of accusations and rejections ~ no discussion. He's gone now, according to him. I think he simply showed up to vent his frustration at Xabir. Bet he wont show for another little while. (or maybe he will... either way, he's arrogant)

Throwing around? I thought for a whole of one full minute before pressing the 'send' button. Its heavyweight, not easily flung about okay? btw, i am not trying to stop his disagreements... I would not even call it that. Disagreements usually include substance.

Hmm... and feisty too! Ouch!

Alwayson, Your view is the misleading one because, as pointed out by Xabir and SJ, its not complete. Not only is it incomplete, it borders on ridicule as your ABC constitutes only a fraction of the Madhyamaka gradual path to liberation. This means its only used as part of a greater sphere of philosophical assertions in that school to help those of middling intellect to recognize mind essence. You ought to stop making bold claims as you have done here. Shame on you for trying to undermine Xabir's and SJ's knowledge and experience. They are way ahead of you in terms of insight.

Feeling bored, Alwayson? Btw, what is real Sunyata?

I'm chillin' with...

Chi Belly? My partner claims i am starting to get one. Am i worried? If i begin to gather too many opinions, it could lead to that. Maybe i could reverse, divert or at the very least prolong this natural progression, but then, something else would evolve to replace the Chi Belly that went missing... No matter... truth is I like not to speculate too much on mundane matters. I prefer listening to the way of nature. For example, when someone gets to a point where they start losing their teeth, they should listen to that, and start reducing meat eating and adopt a 'softer' diet. But no, looking good is important, and so dentists, orthodontists, oral hygienists and oral aesthetic surgeons (all grades) gets fat paychecks while people with nice teeth suffer from indigestion, bloating, ulcer, IBS, colon suffocation... but its okay, as long as their sets of teeth look neat and tidy. Hmmm.... Smile, and flash those polished chompers! Sorry, way off topic.

My thoughts ~ Let the 30 bucks go. You did well to seek opinions here. Li wants to be God. That, for me, says it all. The way i see it, its a simple pyramid business scheme. For a moment, just imagine the movement's bank balance... (pause to reflect) get it? Hence you were duped by having to dish out money for used material which was passed off as new. Look on the bright side... you wont be repeating the same action twice. This is wisdom.

Your title of 'Soothsayer' has just been revoked. :lol: I think we have a long ways to go yet before the next age sits in the major house, although its rising has already seeped noticeably into this current aeon of kali. Just a thought. Btw, only kidding 'bout revoking the title...

Interesting topic. I like this saying by Garchen Rinpoche... "If you receive empowerment, its about bodhicitta. If you receive teachings, its about bodhicitta. If you practice teachings, its about bodhicitta. Everything comes down to bodhicitta. The essence of practice is about bodhicitta. When you sit down to do your practice, what you practice is bodhicitta." Its very clear from these words what sort of status bodhicitta retains in Vajrayana paths. Shantideva's handbook mentioned by Harmonious Emptiness makes very good study material for those who want to train in the warrior path of the Bodhisattva. Also, from this teaching by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche entitled "Loving Kindness and Compassion in the Dzogchen Tradition" one will get a basic but correct view of what exactly is bodhicitta, why is it good to train in it, and how it benefits the practitioner. http://www.pundarika.org/teachings_love.html Additional links which provide useful readings on the subject. http://www.bodhicitta.net/Bodhicitta-Geshe%20Rabten.htm http://alittledharma.wordpress.com/tag/patrul-rinpoche/

Sorry, but i'm not clear what to make of that remark regarding wisdom/dead person. I understand you have good intentions, but it did appear as if you were attempting to incite some reaction by using terms like neo-buddhists and western buddhists. If this was not your intent, then its my fault for being over-sensitive. Even so, its not very nice to try and flash the labels around. Some might take it wrongly. Again, another apology for dragging you back into this thread after you have expressed the wish to adjourn.

What H U G E team are you referring to, Scotty? You're seeing what is not there.

Hello?

Maybe there is no such thing as impatience? When the quality of Patience is not habitually and systematically cultivated with Right View and Effort, then what takes effect in one's life would feel like impatience, but actually its not. So putting the right motivation and intention within the appropriate context of one's spiritual path, there is no need to even ponder about, nor worry over those mostly imaginary woowoos (samsaric traits which do not actually exist...) Great to see you are so inspired! Its contagious!

If you have no objections, i'd be honored to be your TTB friend?