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Since i have already seen with absolute clarity what your motives are, isnt it moot to then ask that we engage in meaningful discussions? Its totally a waste of time to exchange any ideas with you, since you have no feelings for what people write anyways. Someone says something, or makes a point, and you respond with totally irrelevant walls of words that most times does not make an iota of sense at all, and despite repeated attempts by various posters to wake you up to this, you start brandishing your defense shield and accuse others of all sorts of imagined biases against you, as though you are that important that everyone wants to engage with you eh? Or perhaps you are thinking that negative feedbacks are at least still better than no feedback at all, is that what it is? Are you like feeding off these stuff?!! Just for your information, this is not drama school, nor is there the word "Tinseltown" linked anywhere on the site. As if being a dramatic reactionary isnt enough, you then engage in insult after insult at those whose only aim was to encourage you to change your style of communicating your knowledge here because half the time your posts gets lost on the reader, and you completely misconstrue this and go into a frenzied defensive mode, and start your usual nonsenses all over again. Isnt this way below your level of intelligence? I still maintain there is more to you than what you have stooped down to so far, so, until you start to relate in more pleasantly relatable ways, dont expect anyone to put up with your shite.

The above quote is absolutely correct, but the thing is, you have turned simple spiritual legacies left by past Sages into a sort of pot-luck, entrepreneurial type of self-absorbed, self-defined designations, turn it all upside down, and slap a label on your confusion forwarded as wisdom and then call it "Free Thought Buddhism". How very convenient is that? And when those who know better suss you out, you scream bloody murder like a sissified boy who have been exposed. C'mon, Vmarco, you can do better than this. I wonder what took others so long to wake up to your jingles. I saw through your motives after your 3rd post. Unfortunately, your bells have all been tarnished. There are better ways if your goal is to promote your books here man. (definition of Jingle in this context - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingle)

Religion or not, sooner or later, everyone sits down to a banquet of consequences. -- F. Gannon

Genius.

:lol: Well asked!

Exactly. People love to speculate and make proclamations on Absolute states without giving due understanding and regard to the Relative practices, which act as supports and foundations to carry the insights into the Absolute. And i would venture further to say that the Absolute is inseparable from the Relative, and in working with the Relative, one is already working with the Absolute. There has to be a systematic progression, but not from the standpoint of seeing it as a sort of dualistic two-tiered approach. Working at Integration is that which eradicates a lot of unnecessary speculations. Its a symbiotic process.

This is good!

I do not see where this 'destroying' aspect is helpful at all, unless you are talking about snuffing out the separation from dualistic clinging which leads to craving and aversion. You keep asserting how crucial the experience of the Void is pertaining to enlightenment, but somehow refuse to issue a reference point, nor any kind of contextual examples. Its easy to tell someone who is unwell to go see a doctor, but sometimes, if that unwell person is lost, they need directions in how to reach the doctor's clinic, and getting there, simply receiving the doctor's prescription then will not be an adequate enough solution to recovery. Its easy to mistake the prescription for the cure itself, isn't it? Most of what you described are end-states of having done all the necessary work, undergone all the training and fulfilled all the complementary practices. This is all well and good, but its jumping the gun a little bit, dont you think so? Perhaps it will make for a more productive and interesting discussion if you can give explanations and directions as to what this Void is that you vehemently declare to be IT, and how does one begin to practice assembling the appropriate VEHICLE to make the journey with the least possible hiccups? And btw, that last statement regarding feelings is not accurate at all. It is only because of feelings/emotions that one gets to work with and experience the Void, yes? Without such, is the experience even required, or can it be validated as such? What you have proposed does not make much sense. Without feelings, the whole purpose of wisdom and compassion falls apart. Nothing will make any sense, and one will not have the capacity to make any connection with anything or anyone else. This is so, i dont know whats the right word to use, silly maybe?

Well, yes, this is very specific to the technicalities of Vajrayana, and i thought it would be inappropriate to go off on a tangent which will derail the subject at hand, hence i drew on sharing as close an approximate experience with Scotty's, and see where it will take us. Suffice to add that according to Longchenpa, the basis is primordially empty and cannot be emptied any further. It is only during the conceptual stages of practice (Method) that one initiates, or is initiated into, via transmissions, to 'seeing' this actual basis (Path), whereupon one then relies on Methods (the various related sadhanas) to gain deeper familiarizations until it begins to bear results (Fruition). Here is Longchenpa's elaboration (for which i apologize to the OP) -- "If you see from the standpoint of the essence (of the basis), which is primordially pure, nothing exists, and the lights, forms, and colors of the outer clarity (Phyi-gSal) are not distinguishable. But if you see from the standpoint of the nature of the basis, which is the spontaneously accomplished ultimate sphere, there is the primordial glow, which is the utmost subtle appearances of the five lights, forms, rays, and Thigles in the ultimate sphere. So the nature dwells as the utmost subtle intrinsic wisdom, the inner clarity (Nang-gSal). The nature of primordial purity is spontaneously accomplished. Its ultimate sphere, the utmost subtle primordial wisdom, the inner dwelling presents itself as the subtle appearances of the luminous clarity, the primordial glow. The ultimate sphere is free from the extreme of eternalism as there is no assertion that it is gross outer clarity (projections). It is free from nihilism, as it is asserted as a subtle inner clarity. Thus, the spontaneously arisen primordial wisdom, free from extremes, is non-existent as it is emptiness in its essence, and it is ceaseless appearances in its nature. It is the basis of all the arisings as it is ceaseless in its compassion (power). This is the mode of the true nature of the basis." (see, i told ya it will be technical and jargon-laden I dont think this will make sense to some other readers, so lets not pursue the matter, ok dokey?)

Yes, VJ, i am familiar with the reference. The first time i encountered a similarly patterned dawning of this experience, quite like Scotty's, was back in 96. It was during an intensive Yamantaka meditation retreat. I could surmise it as the complete dropping off of all sense of self and other, a fusion of self with all background phenomena - i can recall now that i was postured on a cushion, eyes opened in a kind of Dzogchen stare, just resting the gaze on no particular object, remaining as awareness itself, when gradually this subtle sense of spaciousness simply expanded, and everything contained within the visual field became a hazy whiteness, with beams of rainbow-colored lights piercing thru this haze, and into everything around, including this thing called 'my body'. There was no real, tangible sensation at that particular point. There was no anticipation of anything, and the moment just took care of itself, without a 'me' to direct attention to any particular awareness of any sensation. It was only after the visual field returned to observing all the 'normal' things that made me think that i had 'made it' hahaha. Would this be a fair reference to your understanding of 'emptying the basis'? I later bounced this experience off some of the other retreatants, and also with the retreat leader, and was told its nothing to get too excited over, and that it will happen again and again in line with certain visualization practices undertaken. Was also told that a natural progression from releasing strong clinging to selfhood will also yield similar types of experiences. Later, i got an opportunity to relay this to my mentor, a tulku whom i shall call R, who explained that she was the one who 'empowered' me to that particular unfolding, with the hope that i could learn to rest repeatedly in that non-state as and when it happens again. She encouraged that i should raise awareness around the 'self dropping' part of it, as this will train on, if the practices are kept, to remain more and more lucid during the 'clear light' phase of falling asleep before dreams begin. So apparently its not dreams that we should be lucid about, but that space before dreams begin. She also said that these are the 'symbol-producing functions' of contemplative awareness, and those who has the good fortune to be given Rigpa transmissions will eventually have to get used to them, and repeatedly habituate these functions while learning not to grasp after any of the experiences. This was also a note made by Scotty as well, so the similarities are quite astounding indeed! :) Not too long ago, my partner got hold of a book called Beyond Words. I was flipping thru it recently.... found this quote below, and my heart just dissolved into orgasmic bliss (i'm sure you know the feeling!) :lol: "When one falls asleep, one becomes disengaged from the karmic traces of the material body, the karmic traces of vision, and the karmic traces of of mental functioning. These karmic traces, during the waking state, manifest as one's material body, the external appearances one perceives, and the functioning of one's mind respectively. Why do we speak of being dis-engaged? ... From one's falling asleep right up to the moment when one begins to dream, there is no functioning of the mind and one finds oneself in the real condition of existence. In this, one will experience to a certain degree a merging with what is called the natural, clear light." - - Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

Hmm... you are in luck, RV. sounds like a most objective critique... i wonder if it ever made any bestsellers' list? Not that it matters much. I suppose what counts is that it reaches a wide enough audience to enable the writer to make a few quid. Another self-help manual - helllpppp!!

Thank you, Scotty. Very kind of you to share your evolution into the Void. You mentioned that the experience centers around experiencing a sort of condensation of substance, where outer phenomena, including the sense of oneself, seems to all dissolve into an equanimous 'something nondescript' - i am curious - do you also experience a dissipation of any sort in tandem with this onset of this 'void energy'? Like when the energy rises and becomes more acute, is it actually a condensation, or is there also a falling away of something happening and felt, riding on the one wave? Its this part of the experience that i am quite interested to explore. Any further thoughts would be great!

Ah my friend... it was you who pointed to the Void that needs to be traversed on the way to liberation - so it was natural to ask what and how you perceive this Void to be in order to understand where you are going with this, right? I am sure we are all quite familiar with the cliches, but sometimes, when statements about the Void are made, its good to know the speaker's contextual reference. While i understand this may not describe the real article, but at least we get to hope to see the instrument of pointing. If this is not satisfactory to you, by all means just forget i was interested enough to enquire into this. Peace okay?

I'd hate to think of the consequences should this perspective becomes invalidated, MH.

I believe ashes do become wood again, among many other things. It just does not become the same piece of wood that was burnt. Even in sentient bodies are found ashes, minerals, and a myriad other substances, all taking turns to reach their full cycles of accumulation and disintegration, forming and reforming endlessly.

That's a valid claim. In your path, what does the Void represent? Good to know, i think, so we can understand where you are going with this idea of accessing this Void on the way to enlightenment.

How you even associate the term 'Buddhist' (calling it the free-thought kind) to your view is beyond comprehension, Vmarco. Just re-read how you respond to others (as exemplified above) and you will understand why i choose not to engage you in any exchange of views. I sussed you out, like i said, almost instantly, from your third post in this forum. You just come here to show off your high level of whatever it is you think you possess, and any poster who does not show accord to your views gets treated with sarcasm and often gets talked down to, often disrespectfully. Do you realize this? Of course not. How could you? Despite repeated attempts to bring some sort of attention to your manners and etiquette, from subtle hinting to plain and direct, shoulder-shaking wake-up calls, you are still adamant that those who call you out are grouping up, as though on some sort of a warpath to diminish you as a person - do you not see how ridiculous this sounds? Do you really believe this to be true, that we are so idle that we have nothing better to do with our time? Again, i presume you will have a nice retort and quote handy to explain away this observation, so please, whenever you are ready... Btw, I am Asian, born into Buddhist tradition, and i fully hesitate to even slightly agree with almost every single point you propose here and elsewhere in other threads. And please do not ask me to identify which specific points i am referring to - suffice to say there are too many conflicting ones to even begin an analysis. One could almost choke on some of the more outlandish proposals you have devised and tried to sell off as unadulterated, authenticated Buddhist teachings that somehow only you are privy to, which is preposterous, to say the least. To be fair, there are a couple of very applicable and helpful points you have raised, often in response to another post, but what follows these points is that you then proceed to diminish the poster as though he or she is either infantile or imbecilic. Such a behavior is, to tell you honestly, quite strange, and this will take some getting use to, and then a bit more, assuming you will be here to stay a while?

There are a few significant deities whose names were not Sanskritized. Among the principal ones, Sherab Chamma (Loving Mother of Wisdom) is considered to be of great importance. The Bons regard her as a contemporary deity of Tara (also known as the Great Mother of Liberation to the Buddhists) - both are of equal stature.

Yup - you hit it spot on! Funny thing is we are the ones who are supposedly blind, and in our blindness, flailing about and lashing wildly at the messenger - albeit one with a repetitive placard of outdated and/or irrelevant postulations . The irony of it all....

Interesting 20 min chat/demo between Master Fong Ha and some IMA enthusiasts - - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f8oujzwhTo

Well observed, VJ. Not only is he not ready, the way Vmarco forms his ideas says a lot about how unready he is, and never will be, at least for a while. I mean, just look at the post he made above in response to Twinner... labeling words like 'rapist' on to others - that's totally whacked out! It goes against every single idea he is attempting to promote here on this forum. Now, that's as oxymoronic as it gets. Yes, on the surface, with all these wordy posts he makes it appear, like a great illusionist, to be pulling rabbits out of not one, but various hats, some short ones, some even shorter, but for those with sharp vision, there is a lot of darkness hidden beneath. It pains me to even acknowledge this.

Huh??

You are very welcome, Scotty. Trust you will derive great benefit from it. "The ancient masters said that if you do not foster dislike and unhappy thoughts, your mind will not be in turmoil. If your mind is not in turmoil, the air (or energy of your body) will not be disturbed. If the air is not disturbed, other physical elements of your body will experience harmony. Harmonious elements will in turn help the mind stay free of turmoil. Then the wheel of joy will keep revolving." (the 3rd Dodrupchen)

Hi Scotty, You may find this reference quite helpful - - http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Power-Mind-Buddhayana-VII/dp/1570623309 It covers many aspects of Tibetan healing.