C T

Yes, I think I understand the motivation behind the slightly (over)reaction. I can only respond according to what you've written, and the word that jumped out was 'paranoid' - thats a pretty hefty term indicating more than slight aversiveness - which led me to suggest what I did because I was thinking maybe there are steps you need to take to first address that mental challenge before even considering something as trivial (to me, ymmv) as learning to master an unnatural posture over a prolonged period. And the reason you felt that it went across as a discouragement was because it was exactly that - I've seen enough people damaging themselves from such attempts, and have no wish for another added statistic. I don't have a habit of being presumptuous based on whats written here by members seeking advise or encouragement for attempting something quite alien to their comfort level, just as I would not goad a non-swimmer to get into a dinghy just because we happen to be at a whitewater rafting spot. Notwithstanding the donning of safety gear even. As a side note, concussions & knocks are quite common in whitewater rafting, even among seasoned kayakers. But such injuries mend easily - injuring the subtle body... well, thats an altogether different kettle of fish. The fact that you managed to pull a muscle just from sitting on a chair somewhat raised a red flag for me too. Why wouldn't it? In future, maybe it'd be better to just leave such posts well alone.

You're the one with the paranoia, and i was merely suggesting that you listen to your inner voice. Let me rephrase in a more acceptable tone then.... "This is your paranoia signalling you to drop the idea of full lotus." Sounds better? lol

Being lost is fine I guess.... tripping over sandals in the dark is not so fine. Good questions for contemplation. For me, the path is to be found in the practice of perfecting stability of/in the View (View being the union of emptiness and cognizance), and the way towards this perfection involves the assimilation and integration of what is knowledgeably acquired thru the outer preliminaries and also thru meditative absorption (samadhi); integration is the process of distilling the glimpses of experiential insights into the absolute inseparability of our buddha nature and the buddha nature of enlightened beings, and with each glimpse, get a little better at mastering the mindfulness needed to fuse the odd profound experience with inner awareness ~ in other words, to learn how to draw in such experiences as and when they arise so as to gain greater confidence over time. With dedication to this practice, ultimately, the aspiration of unwavering equipoise will hopefully be captured. In theory, this should end the discursiveness (sems) often plaguing those on the path. In between those initial glimpses and eventual dawning of equipoise is a lifetime's investment in virtuous merit accumulation.

Being a first responder, I thought your approach towards the subject of Buddhist non-duality began with examining the trikaya, and I replied accordingly. Since you are the host, its only polite that we wait patiently for the body of the discussion to develop. Lead the way please.

This is starting to smell like zen slippers.

A clear mind is truth A mind befuddled lies not Neither does a thorn

Thanks, Steve. In some regards, the view presented is acceptable, and I would agree with the general premise, but taking into consideration that Lamrim is the recommended approach by all the main Tibetan Buddhist traditions for developing a wholesome practice and practitioner, it makes sense to avoid potential confusion by delineating all the yanas and Kayas as an expedient step to allow for understanding and clarity. The Lamrim path is an exhaustive system that offers exhaustive and meticulous guidance to any serious practitioner on the path to buddhahood. One who resonates with this graduated path can avoid certain pitfalls that tend to beset those who choose to throw caution to the wind and dive head first into this proverbial deep end, which is actually not deep and not really shallow either - a certain degree of affinity determines where one finds oneself once the commitment is made to burn the bridges. This bridge-burning is a common enough occurrence with those fairly new to tantra who then get enthused & charmed by the allures of Dzogchen. Finding oneself in such a precarious, heavily invested position is not entirely without merit as there is a sort of default assumption that whomsoever takes up Vajrayana will have already been informed of the perilous nature of this theoretically swifter path; therefore, Dzogchen as a follow-on naturally presents its own unique set of challenges which affect individual practitioners differently, depending on various karmic factors. To reiterate, while the eventual practice of Dzogchen may indeed be simple, to grasp its essence without first understanding the priors may prove tricky, which is the reason why some of the great Tibetan Buddhist masters understood the impracticality of leaving the preliminaries out, and for that reason, Lamrim was introduced. Perhaps Bon Dzogchen feel this to be an unnecessary burden to lay on students and practitioners. This is quite possible, as some Tibetan Dzogchen masters have that same attitude too. One of the better links for anyone keen to understand Lamrim and its benefits. http://www.tenzinzopa.com/Ebooks/LAM_RIM_book.pdf

Further explication on the lower, middling and higher Yanas. Nine in all. https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

∞ AVATAMSAKA SUTRA ∞ 8 8 4 Just as reflections on waterAre not inside or outside,Bodhisattvas seeking enlightenment Know the world is not the world: They do not dwell in or leave the world, Because the world is inexplicable; And they are not inside or outside, Appearing in the world like reflections.

This is your innate intelligence signalling you to drop the idea of full lotus. I dont think its a good idea to place too much attention to outer forms, especially in the presence of some form of physical challenge. Its one of those things where those individuals who can do it will tout its veracity and superiority. In doing so, they make others feel inadequate (some do this maybe unintentionally), so this isn't exactly a careful type of skilfulness expected of one who claims to be a long term full lotus sitter, is it?

Essentially, the three kayas are a unified whole, but in practical terms, they can manifest individually and embodied according to each specific manifestation. This is why, for example, Guru Padmasambhava emanate different 'bodies' (aspects of enlightening qualities) at different times for different reasons. I dont think its a mistake to be 'interested' in the absolute nature of Dharmakaya, although for me, I would replace the term 'interest' with resonance. That hunger for spiritual release, I would assume, always begins at the level of intuiting that we can be much more than what we are, and in that, we get a sense that emancipatory freedom is possible - otherwise, why would we seek a path and practice it? So, this intuitive awareness is the voice of Dharmakaya whispering its reality, and for those that hear the faintest clarion call, make the connection and thus begin the arduous journey. After all, when the complexities are stripped away, Dharmakaya nature is but the nature of Mind, which, known (hopefully) to all Vajrayana practitioners, has both the qualities of empty-ness, and cognizance in a unified display. Making that connection, however, is only the beginning of the path. Those who receive the Guru's blessing of seeing into Mind nature discovers the knowledge of the absolute certainty of the indivisible, inseparable nature of mind essence which is undifferentiated from Dharmakaya essence - they do not, at that point, 'see' the speech (as you said, the communicative) aspect (Sambhoga), nor the manifestly integrated aspect (Nirmana). These two aspects are latter results that arise thru the practice of perfecting the various paramitas, of which the entire body of Vajrayana practices are subsets of. This would begin with ngondro, and evolved gradually to lead the practitioner onwards to the higher Maha Ati tantric cultivations. In the lower yanas, cultivation begins by contemplative exercises that involve understanding the discipline of mind and body to achieve integration, so it can be said that at this level, the practice's main focus is on Nirmanakaya and takes Buddha Shakyamuni as the inspiration; the middling, but supposedly slightly superior yanas are where self-effort is given some sort of respite - here, practitioners access not only inspiration from Buddha Shakyamuni, but also that of tutelary beings. Here, some traditions focus on metta bhavana, and practitioners of metta attune themselves with the energetic aspects of Chenrezig and her various subtle manifestations, while some others may also attune themselves and find resonance with the Pure Land path of Amitabha. In a sense, these are the 'enjoyment' yanas - thusly said because the practitioner realizes he or she is no longer left alone to fend off Maya - there is now some assurance that the practitioner is somehow being 'watched over' by the faith they have generated in Amitabha or Chenrezig, and therefore, can fearlessly make progress while 'enjoying' their protective gaze and intercessions. Recognizing the possibility of the interplay of enlightened beings with mortals is said to bring forth the realm of Sambhogakaya. Some random beginner's thoughts

∞ CHAGDUD TULKU RINPOCHE ∞ Desire and attachment won’t change overnight, but desire becomes less ordinary as we redirect our worldly yearning toward the aspiration to become enlightened for the benefit of others. At the same time, we don’t abandon the ordinary objects of our desires – relationships, wealth, fame – but our attachment to them lessens as we contemplate their impermanence. Not rejecting them, rejoicing in our fortune when they arise, yet recognizing that they won’t last, we begin to build qualities of spiritual maturity. As our attachment slowly decreases, harmful actions that would normally result from attachment are reduced. We create less negative karma, more fortunate karma, and the mind’s positive qualities gradually increase.

Meditation. Most carry some kind of preconceived notions about what it is, what it does, where it will take the one who does it. This in itself is an obstacle. Before the benefits can be appreciated more profoundly, it is worthwhile to first learn to gradually lay these notions aside. Where expectations are given less attention, then its just a question of picking it up again, without too much dwelling on the past, nor anticipating too much about what lies ahead in terms of benefits. One can always work with present challenges and use these as sparks to fire up that once ardent flame that you had found all those years ago. When despair arise, meditate on what despair is. Get intimate with that state in as relaxed a manner as you can muster. Do not assign praise nor blame - just observe the nature and the spectrum of despair, of loss, of sadness, of the whole range of emotions that creeps into your consciousness, how long they remain, and look for the source from which they announce their presence, and to which they return. Dont feel like meditating? That feeling can also be a source of contemplation. How long can you keep up that aversive feeling in your consciousness before something else wanders in to take prime role in that mind theatre? From this exercise, you will come to understand the fleeting nature of aversion, and from that, realize that your loss of motivation is not as forlorn nor stubborn as you'd imagined.

Ditto

∞ ATISA DIPAMKARA SRIJNANA ∞ The past mind has ceased and disappeared. The future mind has not arisen or appeared. The present mind is very hard to examine. If you analyze and investigate what can be shown through reasonings—that the present mind has no color or shape; that, like space, it does not exist; that it is neither singular nor a plurality; that it does not arise; or that it is naturally luminous—you will realize it does not exist. If both material and nonmaterial entities are things that have no essence at all and are simply empty, discerning prajñā also does not exist. An analogy is fire: the fire that arises from rubbing two sticks together will burn up the sticks and, when the sticks no longer exist as sticks, the fire that consumed them will go out on its own. Similarly, when prajñā has proven that all phenomena—both specifically characterized and generally characterized—do not exist, that prajñā disappears and that which remains is sheer luminosity, which has no essence at all. Thus, everything that could be a flaw (such as dullness or agitation) is cleared away. At this point, mind does not think about anything, it does not grasp at anything. Mindfulness and attentiveness are cast aside. At that point, as long as the enemy, or thief, in the form of habitual characterization or conceptualization does not arise, rest mind in that.

Jazz up the flavour! Spice up that bowl of ramen! Warm up the sa-ké!

The reason it didn't stick could be due to the possibility that Jeff and co. have been disembodied, either consciously or unconsciously. Not sure how others viewed it, but, from the few times we chatted privately, it was fairly evident there were unfriendly forces at work whose aim were to create doubts in the minds of those who sought to follow an authentic path. In light of this, attempts to reach across peacefully tend to yield zero result (at best), and at worst, that effort could be taken advantage of. This is why its good to know when to employ wrathful means as a form of compassionate action both to protect self and remove some of that layered teflon in the process.

No apology needed. It may not be entirely correct though to say that True Mind is beyond this or that stage. It may arise at any stage (in my experience, that is). It's vital to know that that which we seek is authentic, and not our subjective idea of what we think is that authentic state.

Its helpful to first get agreement on what defines abuse, and secondly, what constitutes 'a lot'. Some situations where observers clearly recognise abusive behaviour may turn out rather surprising and/or frustrating when some of the followers known to these observers staunchly defend the abuser. There was one such case here on TDB not too long ago, and is still being spoken of currently in a different thread. This goes to show the possibility that there's more to it than meets the eye. And there's also cultural bias to consider - what the West sees as abuse may not be seen in the same way elsewhere. In India, (some, which is many) devotees kiss the feet of their beloved gurus - enough Western spiritual seekers find that demeaning and disgusting, so there is a huge difference in understanding about what devotion means between East & West. And if a Westerner chance upon a fellow Westerner who did that, its likely that he/she will be grossly reprimanded (and may even be subject to prolonged mental abuse and stigmatized). When Eastern gurus enter to teach in the West, they too witness tremendous amounts of abuse happening because, coming from the East, they cannot relate why Westerners have all kinds of 'gurus' that they incessantly and gladly receive abuse from - the drug gurus, the alcohol gurus, the domestic violence gurus, the corrupter gurus, the sex gurus, the individualist promoting gurus, the keep fit gurus, the feminist/chauvinist gurus, and all kinds of other addict gurus that Westerners pay homage to without a second thought. It baffles them because these sorts of addictions are completely alien to them. So this is actually a very complex and sensitive subject. Unfortunately, some Eastern gurus who tried to wade deep into the Western psyche by seeking to understand the experience of abuse firsthand from a Western perspective often get labelled with all sorts of names. And if they are reluctant to immerse themselves fully, whispers and accusations of not being 'in the loop', or aloof and disconnected become rife. Ironically, without that real life connection to the very real abuses that Westerners subject themselves to, those who truly need a substantial wisdom teacher who can fully relate with them at their level will not have that opportunity. Damn if they do, damn if they don't. Its a balancing game that's indeed hard to master.

The sutra in question is a fairly substantial load to digest, and may not be the ideal guide for the purpose expressed in the OP. This is the general view, and a safe one to offer since you've not (yet) shared any insight into your familiarity with Buddhist teachings. Not that you have to, but at least it'd be helpful to ascertain your understanding as regards the meaning of 'True Mind' vs 'False Mind', specifically in relation to your personal experience of both these minds. Without this information, it may not be helpful to answer your query with any depth. It is quite possible, and fairly common too, that upon reading a sutra or commentary (of a sutra) one may, by sheer chance or karmic resonance, bump into a moment of inexpressible clarity (I like the phrase, "gap between thoughts") - this can happen to practically anyone, and not just in a focussed spiritual cultivation setting. Getting one's finger caught by a closing door can generate a similar fleeting moment of clarity (do not try!!). In fact, any form of sudden immersion in, or absorption of a profound experience that is beyond words and transcends the senses can produce these 'gaps'. Zen masters are well known for creating situations where such moments of awe-inspired speechlessness arise repeatedly for their students. In that instant, its as if the consciousness is suspended in limbo. You'd likely know this if you're familiar with Zen. Practically though, I'm more inclined towards seriously suggesting a deeply penetrative 50/50 Vipassana/Samatha practice route to enable the gradual onset and sustainability of this True Mind you mentioned.

Why wouid you refer to yerself in the 3rd person? 😁 Don't you feel celebratory enough?

Congratulations on a very successful transformation, Nungali.

I did not take it that way, but felt strange as to why you'd call bs just because I had responded to EG before responding to your questions. I believe I had respectfully explained my reasons quite clearly. Apparently thats not to your satisfaction, since that insistence on my rudeness has again been reiterated above. Cest la vie... we all make choices and have to live with the consequences, isn't it. Despite all this runaround, both now and earlier with Illumairen, Im still of the opinion that if you're serious about getting answers here, then its best to go about it with a bit more sincerity and humility. This may win you more genuine replies from more advanced practitioners. They tend to want to make sure that they wont be accused of being rude, or a bullshitter, or whatever else that might be reactionary on your part towards their chosen input to you. This is not to mean that you have to accept blindly - it just means, if in doubt, pose questions until you obtain clarity. And fgs have a little patience - The world does not just revolve around you.