C T

Would you consider Inner non-dualisation? Maybe? It could be quite an ornament to put it next to this gem 'inperience'... (nudge nudge wink wink )

Excellent share! Thank you sincerely for this, Walker.

Actually i think in real Buddhism, not the new age kind, it does not adhere to nor promote the notion of going to any wonderful place. Its more about realizing, as serious practice will reveal in time, that we have never been separated from this 'wonderful place' at all, and thru cultivation, the layers get washed away and gradually the clear sight returns. Its like removing mental cataracts. Then things are seen for what they are, just as they are in this very moment. There is no better home to go to - we are already home, fed and all. Perhaps this is also true for real Taoism - i dont know yet because i have not known any Taoists who promote or have put forward in the past something similar to the Two Paths/One Ground concept that is offered in Vajrayana. I hope you do not assume that i am looking to start a debate here on which path is the right one. A few members here have had their views narrowed by being led to believe that Buddhists are a condescending, controversial bunch. This brings about cynicism and hypocrisy. In some ways, we have to share the responsibility for this happening. It needs to be addressed, and we as Buddhists ought to maintain a conduct that is conducive to promoting understanding so that open dialog can continue, without people who are non-Buddhists assuming what Buddhists ought to say or do or what they should be practicing. This is least helpful and minds can close up in the process. Those who speak for Buddhism can help by always keeping this in mind, and those who are not committed Buddhists, or who only study and adopt certain helpful aspects and discard some others, can help by not assuming they know what the ultimate goal of Buddhism is, and how Buddhists ought to practice in order to get there. I think as Buddhists we ought to respect others and give room for others to find their own way. But their own way need not be our interpretation of what that way should or could be - it means what it says on the tin - its their own way.. full stop. For want of an example, we could look at the discussions between Goldisheavy and Vaj - it gets very heated at times, yet beneath it all, there is an understanding that both are man enough to rise above trivialities and know that its nothing personal. I think they both understand each other very well, but this understanding is one borne of continued conflict and disagreement, yet i do not think there is any animosity nor contempt held by either party. On the contrary, i think what they have shown is that a relationship can be formed despite differences of opinions. This is the mature, healthy approach. But i also see a lot of cheap potshots being taken by others, like snipers laying in ambush... they show up on threads, make a few wise remarks, and retreat to the underbrush, without engaging dialog at all. They think they know better, and wanted to make sure that others know that they know better. This i see as hypocritical behavior, and should not be condoned. Just be open enough to disagree with concepts, and not attack the person... be engaging, or else exercise the right to remain silent. I for one have learnt plenty from these two guys, and i am glad they did not simply agree to go around patting one another on the back and stoking the fires of consent. I am sorry, Manitou, for addressing this through your post. I hope you do not mind. Its been on my mind quite a bit, and somehow it needed to be said here. For a start, i will try to keep this advise in mind always, as lessons to rectify my own lack of judgement that comes out every once in a while.

If you have time to breathe, you have time to meditate. (Ajahn Chah)

Yes, this could be one of the two better ways to catch a snake.... perhaps there are more. Sometimes simply watching snakes do their own thing, without arousing any curiosity at all to find out if indeed they are as poisonous as they have been made out to be, could be the best option. In this instance, answers become obsolete. Some things are best left alone, or if they cannot be left alone, at the very least, exercise a watchful eye over them. It would appear more astute, and less prone to accidents.

Wow! What a precious connection you have been bestowed with, RV! Good on you! ...and Jetsun too!

nice... your own?

Absolutely! You are correct. This is why one has to be ready to renounce all conclusions (perhaps?) i would think... If one chooses to remain in contemplation over the import of conclusions, then confusion and the resulting frustrations have less of a chance to arise. What do you think?

Ah, i see. Many thanks for the reply. There do seem to be quite a variety of views in this regard.

The Dzogchen tantras contain many commentaries based on Mahayana scripts, the Avatamsaka being one of the principle ones. Some of the others are the Arya-ratnakara Sutra, Arya-samadhinirmocana Sutra, Lankavatara Sutra, Arya-ratnamegha Sutra, Ratnakuta Sutra, Arya-maitreyapariprccha Sutra, and the Prajnaparamitahrdaya Sutra. I am not a completely certain, but i think there are no Vedic/Hindu equivalent of this Sutra, as the very basis of the two philosophies are very different. Some religious scholars might argue otherwise, but this is to be expected.

In your personal opinion or experience, how do you see renunciation in relation to what has been said here in your post? I find that there are many different ideas floating around in regards to this concept, and since its not something that is mentioned often, it would be great to hear what your take is, now that you have mentioned it here. I like this quote by S. Suzuki.... "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, rather, its accepting that they go away."

"The still revolutionary insight of Buddhism is that life and death are in the mind, and nowhere else. Mind is revealed as the universal basis of experience - the creator of happiness and the creator of suffering, the creator of what we call life and what we call death." -- Sogyal Rinpoche Within the flame of one candle lies the potential of birthing an infinite number of other candle flames. Even when the first candle burns out, its essence does not. Never the same flame gets transferred, yet it cannot be said to be a different one. Most of us focus on the flame, which represents an individual life - to make it the brightest flame, the most beautiful, the most cherished, the most healthy, the most happy, the most energetic, etc..... not realizing that the actual ability to transcend both life and death lies in contemplating the phase of transference, and not in the preservation of this flame. This phase is happening right now, in each intermediate bardo of the moment. This is called 'becoming'. In the mere act of contemplation, there is no clinging or rejecting the present moment, just the illuminated, cognizant ebb and flow of all things is seen, transitorily, as empty of permanence.

Aww... that's so sweet

...and then the concepts further clarifies experience and insight, endlessly! Its like a cosmic snake and ladders board, manifested at the micro level. Often, it is how we express intentions thru body, speech and mind that directly determines how we continue the game. Of course in the actual game itself, intentions are replaced by the dices. To excel in both, its good to maintain the position of non-attachment to outcomes, otherwise contractions may arise, interdependently and all. If the View is kept, then it can clearly be seen that there is no need whatsoever to crave the longer ladders, nor despise the short ones. Everything in their time. Just remind myself to be still, and wait... like a ninja :lol:

I like where this is going. I am all for the 'the power is already within each being' ideal, GiH. There is no arguing this. People disempower themselves by setting up all kinds of self-imposed limitations which is exactly fodder to further the exploitative pursuits of disingenuous gurus and self-help teachers, numbers of which are growing in direct relation and equation to demands. The world is lost, and out of this immense feeling of mass dissatisfaction and emptiness comes the gravy train chock-full of those who say 'you can do it - but not without me...' experts. But the truth, i believe, is that the world is not lost. Just that more individuals are now becoming aware that there is a limit to what satisfies on the material plane. Because people do not see this realistically, the intrinsic need for drama forces these individuals to covet attention to their new-found awareness gnawing at their insides, and so the boom goes BOOM - a whole new spiritual industry is created to cater for this demand. This is the big picture, even bigger than what you think is a fundamental problem, that of authoritarian and secretive sects. Why do i say the bigger picture? Because, as i have mentioned in the other thread, everything is a symbiotic process, and spiritual work is no exception. The exploitative tendencies become fed both ways, and the blame goes both ways. People need to see this, and address the issue by first accepting that they are empowered. But this empowerment, like someone says, "Oh! Dont worry... you are all buddhas, all awakened already...", only works when people do not form the assumption, or cling to one, that practice can be put aside, and nothing needs to be done. This is quite common among western dippytoe practitioners, and this is why the gravy train keeps chugging along.... people cannot find the time nor the dedication to self-inquire, like the level that you have, and so they shop and shop and shop, for the next guru, the next great revelation, the next retreat, the next tao master and so on and so forth. You get the drift. I too was part of this exodus of people who became enamored with guru-seeking and worship. Many years i have spent, not to mention money and other sacrifices along the way. So i have observed and partook of this phenomena first hand. Its all down to gullibility, and the obsessive need to feel belonged. This is a very basic behavior that takes a lot of honest appraisal in order for the neurosis to be addressed. Its not as simple as telling people that they have the power already. If the switch cannot be found, all the power is useless. Well, not exactly useless, but lacks the potential for fulfillment, would be a better way to say it. And as an entree, to doubt one's own weakness is a good way to go, as you have suggested. Investigation is paramount. But we cannot deny people the right to choose how they want to initiate this process of investigation. Some like to do it within a laissez-faire environment, which is fine, but there are those who prefer to avail of structured environments where they, due to their own mature outlook and stable assessment, have found that they provide a nurturing space in which to learn and to grow. This is not so bad. If such a space happens to have a leader, and this person turns out to be a well-intentioned, non-exploitative individual, then it becomes a fertile ground for initial trust and subsequent devotion to manifest and to grow. It is not very responsible, in my opinion, to simply open an umbrella and say that the whole system, be it from any tradition, is faulty because as individuals we too have a responsibility towards the direction in which the system take. I would think we are not apart from the whole - even by rejection, either thru rational analysis, or thru more radical actions, contributions take place, either by the way we think, our attitudes, which can only take us that far, or by the decisions we make based on these thoughts, which then expands the responsibility even more. It all comes down to how accountable we want to be, and learn in the process how not to project a lack of this same accountability outwards to a third party, to hold them responsible for our failings. Sorry for the long reply. Just needed to air some thoughts.

Now that you have so succinctly 'sold' the context of your proposal, it would be great to follow up with a substantial body of information on how you plan to empower people to become more free. I mean this sincerely. Is there a structure to this? The peripheral concept sounds absolutely fine, so a process that leads on from here to the core principles of your proposal would be greatly appreciated. If you may, a structure perhaps? Or are people expect to work this out themselves? I may be wrong, but i have formed the opinion, perhaps erroneously, that you are not too keen on any form of structure since structure is just another word for ritual. I think its a wonderful ideal that is being offered here, and it would be even more helpful if you present not only the essence but the actual pragmatic approaches that we, whom you deem are being misled and disempowered by authoritarian propaganda, can have something to chew on. More power to freedom from authority! Be gone, ye ghouls of secrecy! Now teach us...empower the weak.

Man.... i give up. I absolutely, unreservedly surrender. May victory be yours, may the spoils be mine.

Let this parrot repeat something for you to consider - "Meditation is participatory observation. What you are looking at responds to the process of looking. What you are looking at is you, and what you see depends on how you look." - Bhante Gunaratana I challenge you to find a purported experience-sharing post of mine that you can read from a buddhist handbook. Otherwise, i will consider this slanderous, and would expect an open apology.

Declaration of the month!! (btw, its Tenets, not tenants)

Such a magnificent stupa, Ralis. Is that where you used to hang out? Nice...

If push comes to shove, i'd say most people would rather follow the landlord. What say you? Ooops... am i allowed to say this? Let me consult the Eightfold path first.... ooops again... too late.

Not necessarily. This is only an assumption. You mentioned that your teacher broke your chains. That was made possible not because your teacher was compassionate, but that you were ready to have your chains broken. If you were not ready, your teacher couldn't even have helped you untie your laces, let alone break your chains. Harm comes to those who are ready to be harmed. Freedom comes to those who are ready to be free. In summation, i would say that your guru didn't free you - you were solely responsible for your own emancipation. Yet there was a catalyst - Your teacher was it. We need to see that catalysts are not good or bad at the fundamental level, at the level of virtue... just like yeast is neither good or bad. Its relative. Virtue does not always have to mean moral excellence... it can mean simply understanding things and seeing functions for what they are. In this there is no need to cling or reject. Then the application of functions gets a chance to fulfill its highest potentiality. Yeast can be used here a good example - in baking, very essential... yet too much of it, or too little, and the results would be less than optimal. There are always more than one factor involved, for example, the quality of the yeast, and the deftness of the baker. Its a symbiotic relationship, so to say that devotion to a guru is not as equally compassionate or wise and can lead to harm is to fail to understand the basis of how things can work and should work. Ants instinctively know how to use the symbiotic process to great effect within their highly hierarchical set-up. Its us intelligent humans who often blame the socio/political/religious set-up for failing to effectively understand and blend this process to our advantage. I disagree completely. A foundation of any good relationship is one of trust, such as between friends. And i would disagree with your disagreement. Trust is very shallow. One day, trust can be present, next day, suspicions arise. Even siblings and couples experience mistrust on an ever-increasing basis, which is why matrimonial and family law is a thriving business. Devotion only blossom as and when relationships have been thru the fire and emerge with all the wounds and scars, and still 2 people can forge an even stronger bond as a result of this. Trust is like agreeing to jump into a fire together, and devotion arises when stepping out of it. This post costs $500 dollars. Where should I send the bill CowTao? Only kidding! Just kidding about the money bit and the bill. :lol: You're a good man, GiH. Sometimes what you share here is priceless, and other times, well.....

Wonderful! Wishing you a swift realization! Beneath all this loud gloss of anti-authoritarianism, which is absolutely great, because it shows immense conviction and commitment, where is the difference in terms of essence, between your confidence, and someone who is equally confident, but whose conviction lies in the path of devotion to the guru (personification of buddha nature within each being)? After all, devotion is the foundation of any good friendship. As long as individuals fully commit to what they want, and not play dippy toes with their spiritual aspirations, then i do not see why teachers would discourage this in a student. If anyone out there who claims to be a teacher, but in the course of their work, decide to play the game of selfish and crooked manipulation with students - and i know some do, on many levels actually - then they deserve whatever scandal and open criticism that goes with their lackluster and superficial ways. I hope all these people are exposed, the sooner the better.

Its not a function of a lineage, more like a function that comes with the territory of one who proclaims to have a root guru. If there is no root guru used as some sort of badge of affiliation, then of what use are speaking about the samayas? Since this poster openly declared to have a lineage, i merely aimed this as a reminder that he could have acted in a less hypocritical way. If one day you become a guru (i know you dont have much affinity with this word, but nevermind, i am just hypothesizing here) and students begin gathering at your feet, i would think that they are there for your wisdom and guidance thereon, and so you become a personification of wisdom. If these students are to accept the transference of this wisdom, then there is process of assimilation whereby they put your teachings to the test. In so doing, they undertake a responsibility, not to you, but to themselves, to fulfill their duties, as you have done yours as their teacher. Whether you expect this responsibility or not is not the factor - the onus lies with the student to investigate their own understanding in translating into their life what you give them. Even if you may have given useless, rubbished teachings, if a student have the discipline of samayas within his or her own mind, then even rubbished teachings, in other's eyes, could turn out to be golden teachings in this student's eyes. So samayas work like that, in a sort of mysterious way.

Hi John... welcome to the forum. Great place to be, well, almost always... sometimes holes do appear, and people fall in, but no matter, cos all we end up with are grazes mostly, so we climb up, brush ourselves off, and keep walking, and learning in the process. Life is also a bit like this, right? Its a direct reflection of when we were babies, learning to wobbly walk in the first few months of life. Oh the joys of tumbling, the giggles, the tears... it was all so spontaneous. Imagine if we had an adult mind back then, lol, it could well spell the end of learning to walk what with all the knocks we had gotten back then. The ability to adjust, thankfully, was in-built, but often, as we get conditioned in the process we call 'growing up' (funny isn't it? Growing up... sounds so noble) we forget this very gift that got us out of a lot of trouble back in the days... What i remind myself occasionally is that the wobbliness in life never totally leaves us. We just think we are all grown up now and have to resist the different ways and degrees in which the wobbliness manifest now. This resistance takes as many different forms as the manifestations do, and for each time the wobble shows up to help us learn, we turn away in disgust, oblivious to the fact that by doing so, we strengthen the resistance by finding more complex ways to resist even more, and in the process, lose the essence of seeing the stumbles and the fumblings for what they are - vital keystrokes that help re-align our direction for growth. The idea, of course, is to ask that we re-connect with that aspect of our being that allows for the unconditional acceptance that we are, or ought to be anyway, prone to vulnerability. Not that we should actively force this vulnerability to arise by seeking for it, because by so doing, it creates the opposite effect, hence, instead of using this vulnerable aspect of our being (which resides in the heart) as an ally to our growth, we are immediately presented with a twisted logic, which in due time may create neurotic tendencies resulting in neurotic thoughts, emotions and behavior. In adulthood, the emphasis is on the willingness to let go of things, to develop a mental space where we become less attached to things. Its like we are on this life- train where we told to be vigilant, for bandits may appear at anytime, and in order to maintain safety, we have to be prepared to unload the cargo to allow for an incident-free journey. The moment we become caught by the allure of what we carrying, these baggages, our load in life, so to speak, be it material or spiritual attainments (enlightenment? haha), relationships, anything at all, we create the probable causes for suffering to arise. Note the keyword here is probable, meaning that they are only potential stumbling blocks, depending relatively on how much we cling to these things (if seen as useful and nice) or reject them (if seen as unpleasant or distasteful), that is the same degree of their potential to cause us to become dissatisfied and unhappy. Not that these things are good or bad in themselves, for they never last anyway - its how we relate to them, and how we play the game of 'Now i want it, now i don't' that determines if they become a hindrance or a building block towards a more relaxed being, or a more sane being. It is often said that if there are gold bars on a boat, and halfways crossing the big river this boat springs a small leak, if the need arises to throw them bars overboard in order to cross safely, one would not hesitate for a moment to do so. So the value of anything, really, is pretty relative, and changes accordingly. Please do not take what's been said here as a truth - its merely a reflection based upon my own subjective observations of how my life has taken shape so far, and seeing that there is space here to share it, i have done so in the hope that it will give you some added dimension with which to see into your own situation with a little more clarity. It is only a very minor perspective, so please accept or reject it accordingly. I do wish the best for you though, and will remember you in my prayers.