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Thanks for sharing this, Mr Songs. I like the last two sentences..

In stillness, let there be stillness. For stillness to be, motion has to be. In motion, let there be motion. For motion to be, stillness has to be. In stillness, there is also motion. In motion, there is also stillness. Beyond stillness and motion, nothing comes and goes. There is no birth and no death. Beyond even stillness and motion... purification of all dualistic notions and perceptions leading to complete transcendence. Its not that difficult. When you are still, be with the stillness, and when in motion, be one with that. Discomfort arises often as a direct result of the mind following conflicting desires - when one is still, the desire to move arises, and vice versa. We tend to fight against these thoughts, because we have all these ideas about what is right and wrong, which then create the causes for agitation and anxiety to stir inside. This stirring will subtly bring about grosser distractions, and before we realize what is happening, we lose the presence. I am not saying that we ought to give up the knowledge of right and wrong. What needs giving up is the temptation to constantly analyze and compartmentalize our views of what right and wrong is, and then set out to do one while/by trying to eradicate or suppress the other. Thru the right meditative practices, one can learn to remain with whatever arises, without affirmation nor negation of any sort. This is the beginning of equanimous being - no acceptance nor rejection, and no non-acceptance nor non-rejection. Totally free of any resting view. To be free, there cannot be any acceptance or rejection - when one is confused, one daringly becomes utterly and willingly one with the confusion. Dont fight it - feel it fully. When there is clarity, immerse totally with this clarity as it appears - submerge yourself fully into it, touch it, feel it, let it overwhelm you unreservedly. Why? Because there will come a time when we realize how fleeting both are, how illusory, how impermanent - both mental states never lasts too long. And then hopefully one day we get so tired and give up chasing after one and have no energy to avert the other. To do this, to give up, requires much courage, the back-against-the-wall, no retreat, no surrender kind of courage. Then conflict will have no room to raise its head. By its own power, it will shrink. When there is no conflict, there is no need for enlightenment. Every aspect of what we call life merges and diverges at the same instance... you have come home. Trungpa Rinpoche alluded to this kind of warrior-like attitude when he said: "Creating a false kind of hope is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism... there are so many promises involved. So much hope is painted in your heart. This is playing on your basic weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain: In trying to deny and forget the pain, you get involved in looking for alternatives, anything to replace that pain. And that itself is another pain. This is what we have put ourselves thru, and will continue to do so, until we understand deep enough that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is (to embrace) hopelessness."

Hi MH.. I have a question: Do you not find it problematic sometimes, being a such a staunch believer in logical realities, to simultaneously also rely on intuitive functions? How do you reconcile the two? You mentioned that faith is the holding on to ideas that do not possess any logical foundations. Would it not be possible to also see faith as a form of dynamic, inner conviction that what one does/practices will lead to fruitful outcomes? Sometimes things do turn out according to the way its been intended to, would you disagree with this? Of course there are times when they just decide to go haywire, but for those whose beliefs are steadfast, such moments only act as fuel to hasten the journey. I think the unpredictability of outcomes should not deter one from setting out with a practical sense of dogged determination to traverse the roads that lead to certain destinations. To hold up the destinations as motivation to persist with one's plan of action, no matter how insignificant, does require some form of inner strength and conviction, which some like to call 'faith'. Sometimes i confuse faith with wishful thinking, and this is often the cause of my misery, so i have set out to learn to tell the difference, and have since resolved to keep my sights firmly held on the learned experience that what i do each day faithfully ensures how i sleep at night. There is no longer any need to wish for a peaceful night's sleep.. by thinking and acting with the least amount of conflict, the sleep takes care of itself. Perhaps faith and logic can co-exist harmoniously after all... well, i guess this all depends on who's looking. Your views?

Hi Kate.. Yes, i apologise for 'lumping' it together, but in this instance i was thinking along the lines of how people in general (in these times) have a rather skewed notion of what spirituality essentially means. Too much confusion, too little authentic paths and teachers. I am all for integration, btw. This, however, is often taken to mean mix 'n' match, and if no immediate results, discard after like a few months of practice? Lacking in patience, the pattern suggests that the average seeker will not go too far. Integration often requires a positive, persevering, patient, placid, and pliable attitude. Those who can assure themselves of inculcating these fundamental qualities as the basis of their path usually begin to experience the tip of harmonious growth in spirit and body after about 7 years (a length most teachers i have asked generally agree upon.) Joy to you

:lol:

Neither is waiting for Padmasambhava to appear in the back seat of your truck.

Hi Astral.. Good to hear that you are integrating Buddhist practices into your own. Not too accurate though to think that Buddhism seems to ignore the body. There are many sects of Buddhism which places great emphasis on purification through karma yoga, for example. In Tibetan Buddhism, it has been said that doing prostrations is one of the most effective forms of cultivating physical transformation. Its been claimed those who commit to doing a million prostrations in one lifetime, by this alone, would attain to 'rainbow body'. Permanent changes can be seen and felt after the first hundred thousand... Wanna try? This particular Buddhist school/teacher speaks of Yantra Yoga (physical development): This perspective from a Bon teacher: With regards to attaining all the powers we so desire, time is a crucial factor. Brazen is s/he who expects to see permanent results after a few months of output. All the best on your path AA. (i really like the general feel behind what Balance has said here. Just wanted to acknowledge this. Cheers, Balance!)

Can that which is acquired remain constantly in process - workable, adaptable? If it can, i think this will bring one close to the shores of wisdom, only if its not asserted, either to oneself or to others. Why is assertion a factor? Because we all have a different view of the horizon. The moment we assert any 'truth' it becomes a dead-end, and Truth has no business up dead-end streets nor dogmatic alleyways. The very nature of Truth is liberation, freedom, emancipation - whenever someone tries to encapsulate it, or box it up neatly, or put it on a mantle, then by its very simple nature, without it having to resist in the slightest, Truth will remain elusive to the seeker. It can be a rather tricky situation... very often the act of seeking for Truth itself creates a parallel, deniable resistance to what it actually means to live in its presence. This is my own transitional understanding anyway. Not yours, not nobody's... just my own. Btw, please pardon the interruption. Bad TTB habit. (have to consider a Blastoic move soon i'd say)

According to teachings laid down by the Buddha, things do not unfold as cut and dried and straightforward as you have put forth here. Such views could lead to over-simplification and eventual stagnation, resulting in a deluded state of mind. Not saying here that you are... its obvious you have been taught well by your master, but sometimes we (as in anyone of us - no matter how realized we want to think we are) have a tendency to fixate on certain matters and then it could happen that these 'keys of realization', instead of opening the door to ever-wider emancipation, gets jammed in the keyhole of ignorance. In order to prevent this, its good to keep check of the unsurpassed teachings of the Buddha from time to time. This particular sutta highlights what has been said above: http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn136.php Hope it can shed some light on the discussion in general. Sarva Mangalam!

Its possible these feats are not classified under spiritual attainments (not even in the 'low' side of it). Likely they are psychical abilities, powers which have always taken the fascination of many throughout the ages. There is no prerequisite for any spiritual evolvement before one can learn to develop them. All cultures have their own unique desires and modes of development/dabbling. Ouija boards, tarot and other basic stuff all the way up to instant mass trance induction capabilities - people who can do these things, and who actually do them, need not necessarily be more spiritual than that woman who decided to dump the cat into the bin just for kicks. For example, If you took a course in hypnotism, there is likelihood you could eventually learn, at will, to induce a crowd of people to think you are the president (although what that has to do with spiritual development idk). So its not like its that difficult a task. Not demeaning the integrity of those who choose to cultivate these abilities. It all depends on one's needs really. Its not too accurate to project a comparison and say that this sort of choice is labelled lowly and insufficient as a spiritual pursuit whereas things like awareness is the more authentic or 'higher' fruit of spiritual attainment - this premise of speculation is in itself fundamentally incorrect. Upon reflection, its no wonder humanity is still as befuddled, despite the apparent leaps in intelligent levels and immense info tech accessibility - people in general are still in the dark as to what is authentic spiritual development (the trunk) and what's not (the branches). This is glaringly stark - many out there seems to think their lives have become spiritually more meaningful simply by virtue of the fact they have started to believe in the newer possibilities of guardian angels, channelling outer dimensional beings, PLR(Past Lives thing), crystals, feng shui, NLP, reiki, aliens, mushrooms, joined meditation/yoga classes, etc etc. Imo, absolutely fantastic with expanding one's field of interest to inject a bit of needed variety into one's mundane life, but to think these have any spiritual significance in and of themselves might be stretching it a bit.

It seems those who ought to be morally and ethically responsible are not, and that which weak humans attempt to exert governance over are operating at levels beyond human moral and ethical standards, in short, could do without any 'intelligent' (lacking in wisdom?) interference, for this larger system is by its very nature self-governing. No wonder the general idea is that we as humanity are doomed - how dare we pitch our puny little acorns against the force of total, relentless yielding? Nature never hits back in direct fashion, nor in expected patterns and/or times when we think it might. Well, as the saying goes, God does work in mysterious ways... Just curious TM.. Have you ever heard anyone mention that among the Chinese, those who are able to 'see' beyond this dimension into the spirit realm, possess what they call 'yin yang eyes'? Generally observed that those in possession of such visions have one eye larger than the other... the smaller one being that which enables the owner to see into the netherworld. Myth perhaps? Where i come from its an apparent fact that is simply acknowledged without question, so i thought maybe, just maybe, there could be some truth to it. No fire without smoke eh?

Not sure if this is totally related to the topic.. A couple of days ago a friend and i were chatting about forming deeper connections with certain teachers, why some teachers are more cherished than others, during which she related one experience that made me recall this particular thread. A few years ago, she attended a retreat in Spain and there made a very 'open heart' sort of connection with a Buddhist lama, who was leading the retreat. To affirm her feeling, she kept in touch with the sangha in Spain in the hope of meeting the same teacher again should he return there for future teachings. He did, and each time she faithfully went to listen as he returned there to teach. One day she had a dream... in it she was visited by this lama who looked at her, and gave her this big, warm smile. She was happy with the dream, but did not really ascribe too much significance to it. Two days later she got a call from a friend, who informed her that 3 days earlier the lama had suddenly passed away. That news really made her think.

Hi there Observer... I have found this site very helpful whenever there was a need to get a better perspective on certain Buddhism-related topics > http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/index.html I trust that you too will find it useful as a source of reference.

You are right - most wont. And those that wont would certainly not be preaching/prophesying/complicating subjects in the same manner that you do as well. True cultivation in Taoism/Buddhism is about returning to simplicity and clarity. From what i have read of FG so far, it is neither simple nor clear.

Cheers. Thanks for clarifying L7. (Just want to say that in the more 'secret' levels of spiritual cultivation, its often hard to grasp the internal workings of them teachers simply because we are not at that level. If we were allowed into their heads for an hour even, and get to see things thru their eyes, who knows where we will end up?) ............................................................................................. (Just a thought) Sometimes strange and wonderful things happen that defies analysis. Medical miracles we have all heard plenty of. Scientists tend to conveniently sweep these 'spontaneous healings' under their clinical rugs. They are not comfortable as yet to explore 'the other side', me thinks. So all these suggestions and demands about submitting spiritual masters to lab tests are merely wishful thinking, at best. They (the scientists) have yet to successfully deal with things that are happening in their own realm, let alone venture into realms that could potentially give them (literally) nightmares, cold-sweats and more befuddlement.

Thats because you are trying to analyze the whole picture based on your constricted view of about 7 percent of the iceberg. Naturally that you understand to be quite limiting, dont you?

If he does not give two hoots about his public image, and not too concerned what outsiders think about him, why would he be concerned about his credibility? Your words: "I'm not sure he minds as much anymore of people calling him a fraud." (Just curious...) ************************************** On a side note - RV mentioned (a few posts up) the possibility that energy has a moral intelligence... i think it has. Additionally, and more crucially, i believe it/She also possesses evolutionary intelligence. (Cool thought, RV! )

Have you ever considered the possibility that you are not the only person on this forum who practices 'straight talking'? I get the feeling you detest being told that some of your views could do with some polishing, and you take such observations as attacks, when in actual fact they are not.If you think that you can be 'harmed' by the words that fly off of your computer screen, then you might consider spending less time on forums of this nature. There is nothing personal here - we are all here as potential only - none of us exist - and no one from this site is going to be looking menacingly thru the window of your house, nor i think will anyone here be delivering you a bunch of flowers in person either. You mentioned in one of your other posts that you learn a lot from the 'nice' folks here, and abhor those that seem to have some kind of bad agenda towards you. You then imagine there's cliques and other conspiracies against you. This takes some imagination. It appears you only see the reality that you want to see. Well, often the reality that you can see is not the real reality. Even on this board its the same - you only see what is on the surface, and then you take people's words as a kind of real measurement of whether they are a 'nice' person or a 'nasty' one. I am wondering if this is really helpful to you in the long run. As Gold said, if you want to survive here, it might serve you well to prepare for a marathon, or you might find yourself drained and fizzled out in no time. You might also reconsider, if learning is your main priority, especially if this learning means knowing more about yourself, that in truth we actually learn more quickly about the nature of fire when we get burned by it rather than simply living under the illusion that all fire does is keep us warm. What this means is that sometimes we learn more from our perceived adversaries than from our perceived friends. Just reflect on this for a second: If you were to ask a drug addict who first taught him/her to use drugs, what do you think the likely answer would be? Sometimes in life we get held down and held back more by our friends than by those who are not our friends. Forbearance has little or nothing to do with putting up with the BS and the evils you perceive that's in the outside world or in the world of this wonderful board - its a measure of how far you would go to be truthful to yourself, and to what extent you are willing to allow room enough to see that others too have their own 'truths', and then be willing to find some common ground where each other's 'truth' can interact peacefully, or with as little conflict as possible. Then we have a chance to grow and promote the kind of ideal that most of us here in TTB strive to do to the best of our abilities. This is a great place for sharing ideas, and learning about the various frailties and pitfalls, and with a bit of luck, maybe pick up some wise advise here and there about how to empty out little stones that inadvertently get caught in our shoes as we walk along the spiritual path. As long as we do not imagine these little pebbles to be bigger than what they actually are, we ought to be quite alright. Whatever it is, however you proceed, just be very mindful and be ever watchful as each step comes along.

Its nice of you to offer such an elaborate response GiH. Not sure if it was deserving, but thanks all the same. Not sure too if i was actually 'preaching' - i see my contributions mostly as reflections directed back to me to address my own failings. We teach best what we need to learn, as the cliched saying goes. Not sure about others, but most times when i respond to posts its nearly always based on lessons i want and need to learn for myself. So it sounds a bit selfish, but at the end of the day, i sleep better (i love naps too btw ) because the possibility for hypocrisy to arise is lessened. Three things i got from your post: 1/ Tis unwise to let one's moral values turn to judgements. That means the values have overtaken oneself. When this happens, they become hurdles, stumbling blocks, hindrances.They have the potential then to cause one to fall flat on one's face. 2/ Most times, on forums of a similar nature to this one, there are many 'elevators with no doors'. If one demands too much watchfulness for decorum, that could blind one's mindfulness of what is at hand, and one could easily miss a step and not see that the elevator has yet to arrive, and as a dire consequence, find one falling down the shaft. 3/ Its not advisable to ride a horse that is a few inches too tall. Always look to ride one that fits one's stature. In all 3 instances, one could easily die, and friends/acquaintances from TTB would not be bringing flowers to one's grave. That would be quite an unsatisfactory ending indeed. Once again, thanks for the tips.

Mr Gauss... It is absolute baloney to assert that this Mr Li has no karma. Sitting in full lotus (which btw is NOT a display of any level of realization, merely a conducive posture that one may choose to adopt for various reasons) is itself a kamma, which simply means 'action'. He does consume foods and liquids, does he not? One would hope that he does anyways. These acts are none other than kamma. So no, i would not for a minute go along with your outrageous proposition that he is a man without karma. It does not make any sense at all. The fact that he is with 'body' implies he is subject to karma, as is any sage or prophet who has come before, or after. Even Jesus, whose nature is supposedly divine, was subject to the principle: "All that is born is subject to change and eventually death". This is the fundamental principle (cause and effect) behind the workings of karma. Unless this man can prove he can walk thru walls, or you can provide documents showing him emanating rainbow light from his crown, it beggars belief that he is without karma. Even those in the past who attained to rainbow bodies are subject to the forces of karmic tendencies, meaning they have performed the actions necessary that led to their particular attainments. I would be most grateful if you will desist from further making such preposterous claims as it goes against the very logic of the law of karma. Nothing that comes into this world is above this law.

One can be politically incorrect and yet not have to resort to swearing and using demeaning language that reflects one's lack of refinement. Being well-mannered in speech and exercising a degree of restraint in word-choices does not equate political correctness. Speaking freely one's mind does not have to include some of the less appealing words you have chosen to use on those(him) whom you have projected your insecurities on. You have only been on this forum a short while and your patience has already been worn thin, and that you have allowed to be done by someone whom you do not even know about, surrendering the reins to a total stranger to dictate your reactions and move you off the lotus seat of harmonious beingness. Those who opt to speak in a mannerly fashion and choose not to use labels ought not to be seen as attempting to be politically correct, but instead as one who tries to behave without passion and aggression, two potentially harmful traits that most cultivators learn to disarm early on in their respective paths. I am afraid you have work to do. And quite a lot of it too. Perhaps a good place to begin is by looking mindfully the words you pick as a means to express your inner self. I hope this has not been misinterpreted as from someone who is 'hounding' you. I assure you i have no such motivation nor the energy. I am merely a blockhead who is trying to improve my own oral and writing skills.

(hey Paul, do you really have to make it so tough for other Haiku (wannabe) aficionados to follow on?) ripples, water, still... 'neath the earth, ever swirling chaotic balance...

Actually you are mistaken here, 3Bob.. i would not be so bold as to attempt to advise anyone but to merely counsel my own poor soul and prop up this dulled and fixated mind so as to remind myself that it pays to be more malleable in terms of conduct - both physical and mental, in the hope that such flexibility would allow for growth of a bigger spiritual heart, is all.

Haven't we all assumed the role of sentinels and protectors of that which we believe is beyond reproach, not realizing sometimes that such closed-fisted attitudes are not only counter to those sublime truths that underlie the Belief, but goes further, in fact, to serve as a measure to hasten one's own contraction. As Richard Bach says, "Argue for limitations, and sure enough they become your property". (paraphrased) (I think Dwai has done some a great service by hoisting this thread up. Thumbs up.)

Sock it to 'em... Ultraman! :lol: (on second thoughts, i am just wondering if there is any need for the true Way if not for such deviations which sometimes acts as markers to keep one in the knowledge that one's footing is strong and sure, and one's conduct unblemished)