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just a lame attempt not to underestimate the didactic value of the humble crumbs, thats all... :lol:

my exciting life picking at strewn bits of crumbs scattered near toaster...

... and this is the exact same way i get stuck sometimes (THIS is it!!! ah ha! bam, there's another fixated idea born), when attempts at discernment and comparison overshadows right view! Within the finitude of human understanding, it is very valiant to declare one knows that one's chosen goal is 'complete', let alone the path. I keep telling myself that the only time i will know with a degree of certainty if i had practiced correctly would be when i am drawing my final few breaths. IF beings truly and deeply believed completeness were a certifiable possibility there would not be so much conflicting ideologies. People would truly live harmoniously then. So the problem i see is not so much the different paths, but what is mistakenly perceived as many different 'ultimate experiences or ideals'. You see, it would be quite daft to argue about architectural plans, for example, if everyone's vision of a completed building were to be the exact same. And its even more silly to argue even before the plans can be finalised and agreed upon, let alone whose 'vision' is more concrete... there is no such thing as a 'concrete' house as such, let alone the firmness of a projected 'concrete' vision of a building. To assert in this manner denotes fixation and contraction, which is quite detrimental to spiritual progress. Sorry for veering off topic.. Carry on - very interesting thread so far!

mountains dark and blue shrouded in mysterious hues i looked for my shoe...

I personally think there are no hierarchies in Buddhism. However, within specific traditions, where Guru Yoga is taken as the path, it does appear to outside eyes as though there are obvious remnants of it, but that is only when the preliminaries are practiced, or the contextual aspects of Guru Yoga are being emphasized. After that, in the fruition aspects, or at the realizational levels, all perceived hierarchies are merged, meaning one then becomes inseparable from the Guru, or one is none other than the Guru.

From experience, i would say, referencing the Buddhist teachings/path here, that teachers do not intentionally hide things from students. Some teachers (most do btw) give the same fundamental teachings over and over, but then how it is absorbed and revealed is entirely up to individual growth according to layers of blockages that are removed. For example, the way i assimilate the basic truth of the Noble 8fold Path 20 years ago and now is totally different. The Teaching of the 8fold Path has remained the same, yet its depth just seems to go deeper and deeper with time. Does that mean that there are secrets contained within, and are hidden from me? Or is it simply that it unfolds according to wisdom experience? When the student is ready, the truth behind the teachings are revealed, as the saying goes. Another example: Lets say a student follows a teacher for X number of years, and faithfully attends all the teachings given by this teacher. The primary message taught is always the same: (for instance) "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind". Now the student may think long and hard that there must be some hidden truth behind this statement, for indeed it does sound too profoundly simple to be true. Time and time again he/she pesters the teacher with many questions to address all the doubts that arises, and each time the teacher says the same thing... "Just let your thoughts settle in the natural state of no-mind, and you will attain to that." So what does this student do? Feeling exasperated, this student will tend to create all kinds of obstacles to complicate the journey within just for the sake of identifying with his/her own preconceived, often paranoidal notions of what the teacher is trying to hide, when in fact nothing is being hidden. Then one day, after years of contemplation, the student finally attains satori, and realizes then and there that in actuality, indeed no secret was kept from him/her, and the teacher was sincerely upfront all along. At that point, what's left to be done, but laugh, and realize how tricky the mind can be at times...

These ideas you are putting forth here as counter-arguments are in themselves 'views' too, are they not? By arguing against, you are effectively aiming and trying to project an alternative set of views, or are you not? If so, what are some of your helpful proposals please? Its easy to disparage and criticise, but what is your back up philosophy Mr Ralis sir? If you do not have one, that makes you a foolish participant here (and there, and everywhere) - and if you do, then what sets it apart from the others that you are trying so overly hard to demean? Or are you simply showing off how smart you can be? If that is the case, ok, you are smart... happy?

airs of ecstasies fragranced by the Haiku bums laced with magnolia...

Wow! Post of the century imo.... Hey 3Bob.. whats your stand here? Dont you agree this is a mighty fine piece of writing? What kind of harping would you call this?

Brilliant, easy to relate to teaching from Alan Wallace on mind-training: http://web.me.com/ksnowsb108/Phuket_Spring_Podcasts/Main_Page/Entries/2010/6/9_Awareness_of_Awareness__Emerging_through_the_Clouds_of_the_Dense,_Deluded,_Compulsive_Mind_into_Clear_and_Luminous_space.html Edit - Feedback! Any problems loading the page guys? Sorry if there is. Not sure what the hitch can be. Try this (the whole series of teachings) and search for above topic (5th one down) from the list: http://web.me.com/ksnowsb108/Phuket_Spring_Podcasts/Main_Page/Main_Page.html

Mr Songs... If you take away the religious connotation and yukkiness, to 'become a buddha' is indeed worth striving for as an ideal to becoming a better human being, for it simply implies to become awakened, which, i am guessing, is the noble aim of many who visit or reside here on TTB. Buddhas are everywhere - the thing is, as one becomes more awakened or enlightened, its not so much that one sees oneself becoming more like a buddha, but to see how others, thru their frailties and imperfections, presents one with ample opportunities to reveal one's own good heart by lending them a hand, an encouraging smile, a thoughtful and kind word perhaps... so its more like these people who crosses one's path that are buddhas, and less so we ourselves. Interdependent origination perhaps? Who can say for sure... Your friend, mr cow

That, my friend, is very very well said...

sometimes...something new! born out of blood, sweat and tears but the fruits are sweet...

This is no different from realignment. You are just viewing it from a lesser perspective, involving your own imagination to a greater degree. Solution/realignment - same same. No realignment = no solution. Dig?

Vortex/Ninpo... Yes yes both of you are correct - in mandarin 'chang' is long. With Cantonese being my second language, it was a reflex that i interpreted the words in Cantonese. In HK there's a lovely village called 'Cheung Chau' meaning the long island, but in pinyin its spelt Changzhou (ticks missing here). So i stand corrected. Cheers! (Me bad for veering off... sorry Gauss)

In that case i humbly apologise, and will keep my mouth zipped, but before i do that, just want to say that 'chang' definitely does not mean 'long' in Cantonese. Maybe it does in some other dialect, not sure. In Hokkien (Fujian province dialect) 'long' is 'chiang', but that too depends on the pronunciation, cos if the tone is raised, it also means 'gun'. Sorry. I shut up now!

Actually there is major difference between seeking reliance and seeking refuge. One leads to dependency, the other does not. In fact, seeking refuge ends dependency. Protection from demons? What demons? The only demons are one's own illusional delusions. Dependency is one of these delusional demons.

Allow me to make an observation Lino... I think you have started to enjoy shooting yourself in the foot and know not when to stop. I suggest having some realignment done with your teacher, whoever he or she is. You appear to be operating from a different zone altogether, the things you come up with.

I think long = 'cheong', as in "Marn lei cheong seng", or the long fortress of 10,000 li (The Great Wall). Chang means vividly lush or deep green, like jade, or forest. Pronounced differently it also means 'well', as in source of water. In this particular regard, it sounds more like 'ching chun', or the prime of youth, or eternal youth. So the Village of Eternal Youth makes sense...

If i have misunderstood your position i apologise, but you seem to rely quite heavily on this master of FG. In Buddhist teachings reliance on any external being is really not recommended. One goes for refuge, which is different from reliance i think. Naturally cultivation can happen without a master... it just takes longer, and a lot of unnecessary hurdles may crop up. Having a teacher to show the way as a guide is wonderful, but he or she should never be regarded as the giver of gifts, like this master of FG you speak of here. Having said this, we all have our own understandings, and who can say who is all present and correct? Wish you well on your path anyhow..

right here, here, no news News? Nothing but repetition more like old reports...

Tantra is far from freely allowing and abandoning oneself to indulge in sexual fantasies mewtwo. Baiqi said it well. Any attempts without proper guidance and instruction is asking for the perpetuation of ignorance (read 'trouble'). The Chinese equate this kind of foolish indulgence to those who purposefully smear themselves with honey and then taking a leisurely stroll in the tropical forest. You get the picture? There are some very virtuous spiritual cultivators on this forum who offer their time to teach others about proper practices. Perhaps PM them to ask for advice on setting up an appropriate set of practice, instead of wondering about diaper fetishes...

Hey Raymond - Do i detect some sort of goading happening here? You wont hear what you expected to hear because that which you expected is merely your own projections, an extension of your aversions. If you can lay them down, your journey will be much lighter. Look into these, instead of expecting some buddhist preaching each time you read a post put up by what you project as from a buddhist(s). My experiences evolves around the teachings and methods taught by the Sugata, but that in no way implies that there is any need to use these as a shield, or a crutch. I know when to lay down the methods when the time is right, in order they do not become hindrances. Before someone has attained to their particular non-conceptual realizations, it is wise and understandable to grasp tightly to concepts, and keep looking at the finger with enraptured attention. Having done this long enough, one grows tired after a while, and the clinging will dissolve on its own. The key phrase is to keep to one-pointed conceptualization, or total conceptual mindfulness, or else the letting go will not happen. Thats why it is said that to decide on One point is so vital. Find your One Point, and work on that. Then transcend. The common mistake most make is to have many points, which ultimately leads to immense distraction. Feeling lost, and not even realizing where one is lost is detrimental. When focussed on One Point, when one loses the way, its not so hard to retrace the steps. If you do not goad, usually i will not speak of buddhism. If you access all my posts (which you wont i am sure) you will see that i hardly talk about Buddhism per se. Its mostly just from my own experience and reflections that i use to try to relate with posts that are found to be interesting enough to respond to. Stop projecting stuff. At the end of the day, its what you have shed, not what you have accumulated, that determines how 'light' your being becomes. (apologies Drew - this was not necessary at all. Its off topic, and irrelevant. I had to respect Raymond's position though and try to explain some basic things which he projected that was not even there in the first place).

What you have described is, according to the secret teachings, at best conceptual meditation. One is still caught in 'doing' something to get some result. This is only skimming the surface. Beneath all this, the 'real' begins when no meditator is left, there is no one doing any of this. There is only the meditation meditating itself. All realizations subside. All labels such as you have pointed out, like 'awake', 'shen' etc simply falls away. These things only serve as means to arrive at the state of statelessness, the nondescript, where even the observer, the witness, disappears. Some call this formless meditation, or the pathless path. I think you ought to re-establish what you have termed 'Real Meditation'. Not that what you have said is false, but sometimes the other face of 'real' need not mean there is any falsity - only that it can mislead some to think that this is all there is to the actual state. Its not. Its good to know these things you have prescribed, to enhance one's connection to the actual 'real' stuff... but its only again a finger pointing to something.

all at once - who moves! chess pieces glide across board moving the fingers...