C T

After to-ing and fro-ing with Vaj for the last year or so, one would think that you would be really tired of the regurgitated sameness of experience by now. Apparently not so, as the karmic energy is still very much lingering. When they eventually cease, with or without your 'self' direction or effort, then 'going beyond' arises naturally. Just like Vaj has no control over your reactive emotions, yet each time you read some of his posts, they arise spontaneously. In essence, the energy underlying your emotions and those that bring forth discrimination cannot be differentiated. One taste, as they say. Eventually one learns simply to recognize arising energetic displays without assigning any preferences to the arisings. When one is able to rest pervasively in this stateless state, there is no coming or going - thus one is said, figuratively, to have gone beyond (dualistic notions, all levels, from gross to subtle to remainder to no remainder). Or something along these lines... If you do not assign any labels to your expressive responses, you will see, when you just allow them to simmer inside, that over time your energy levels will increase. Those who do not know the correct way to handle this will feel as though they are in a pressure-cooker. In Dzogchen, you should have already learned to transmute the latent potential of inner energetic manifestations. By choosing against redirecting your energy inwards, you instead express it towards Vaj, then it becomes negative, in the sense that you felt something is not right, hence the response, but if you do not express it, but skillfully redirects it back inside, then its to your own benefit. You have a choice. Since you practice the highest stages of Trekcho and Togal, you ought to know this is the essence of Dzogchen - the transformation of poison into elixir, just like how the mongoose transforms the snake's poison.

The OP's sincerity in putting this up is commendable. What i cannot understand is why offer this summary? It really does not encompass the Dzogchen path fully, and may lead to unnecessary misguidance due to incomplete information. Is this really helpful i wonder? There are volumes of teachings around Dzogchen, and it takes a practitioner months, if not years, of Ngondro practice and the attendance of at least one or two 3-month retreats (or ideally to complete one 1-year retreat) before being ready for the specific Dzogchen empowerments. Maybe i am a traditionalist at heart, but i am quite certain other Dzogcheners here would attest to this. And btw, your summary is not even accurately presented, having missed some of the most fundamental key aspects, like the critical explanation of the nine vehicles, namely the 3 outer sutra vehicles, the 3 outer tantras, and the 3 inner tantras. These alone form the introductory stages of the path, which if not understood and assimilated, one cannot expect to move further up the path. Perhaps it was an oversight on your part, and if it was, maybe you might consider expanding your summary by incorporating a more expansive explanation of the nine vehicles, for example. I still maintain though that this post is quite irrelevant, and will not create the right conditions for the the appropriate intro into Dzogchen. Apologies Alwayson - you are free to post whatever you like to, i know, but there are some things we really ought to reflect/ponder in greater depth before putting them up. Sincerely. This is just my opinion. You are free to disregard it as you please.

No disrespect, but often people regard these places as though they were spiritual 'stock exchanges', where they go to invest in the hope of big returns, or maybe just to hedge their spiritual futures, like trying to secure a comfortable after-life, so to speak. Its hilarious. Naturally its big bucks and big business. Its not that these places are essentially corrupt or anything, but from my experience growing up in an Asian country, visiting temples often as part of my mom's tradition (religious Taoism), i got to see lots of greed from people trying to 'bribe' their way to win the gods' favor, which oftentimes took the form of chunky donations of money. To drive the circle of greed even greater, these temples usually have their own Oracles, who would often mediate with the gods after one has made a fair donation, and in return, the donor gets to go away with some 'lucky' numbers given by the gods (thru the medium), which they will then use as combinations in national sweepstakes and/or lotto games. Sometimes someone gets lucky, and spreads the word that such and such a temple has a very powerful Oracle who can bestow winning numbers, and people flock there in droves, hoping to strike it rich. Of course, once someone wins, naturally big donations follow. People would be afraid not to make donations after winning, in case there is some kind of heavenly retribution, or most do it simply for the reputation, just to make a big egotistical show of their generosity to other temple goers, and then there are those who constantly donate, in the hope of winning even more, or for some, winning little but often is great too (those who want to believe they are more 'pure' at heart, convincing themselves they are somehow less greedy than their neighbors who wish for heftier wins, so that makes them sort of more 'okay'). Having said this, i do not recall these manners of behavior in the Buddhist temples though. I mean, devotees still make donations, but never with the same kind of zeal as those who frequent the Taoist temples. In the Buddhist temples (the ones i went to belonged to the Thai Forest Tradition), one simply makes a small offering in the donation box often located in some obscure corner of the temple hall, and then stand in line, if one so wishes, to kneel in front of the abbot or senior monk, who then recites prayers and blesses the person with a sprinkle of water, usually with the aid of a stemmed lotus flower. This is what i remember growing up in the sixties back home, but i am sure its still rampant today, perhaps more sophisticated and organized than in years gone by. Oracles with laptops and i-phones maybe? Emails to heaven, anyone? ................ Birdoftruth - that lady you tried to get info from? More than likely she would be one of the ushers/caretakers/temple-ground keepers. Asking her about meditation would be like asking the mailroom lads in the NYSE for advise in setting up an investment portfolio... (Not implying they are devoid of investment tips - i know some of them probably has all the 'inside' info and all, but the odds are pretty slim). This article on "The Business of Religion": http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1995archive/122_3/35business.html

refracting events unfolding as if things moved and i... motionless

lightning bug, and dark reflected upon whats light bedazzled optics...

Do all paths really lead to the same goal, or do all goals eventually lead to the same path?

Hi Vaj how you doin? Because your connection is super-slow, i have extracted this: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/12388-enlightenment-for-all/page__pid__157043__st__20& for you! Its the contents of the clip typed out in full (find post #22). Sorry my comp skills are fairly zero, meaning i'm just as super-slow, i guess - haven't yet possess the savvy to snip the specific post with the contents displayed in order to save a bit of your time. Good day!

This is a repost (for those who may have missed it the first time it was put up a few months ago) of Jed McKenna's clip on "Where Is Enlightenment?", courtesy of Ahab Capt. Not that its terribly important or anything - just a bunch of words that sounded quite right (to me), and he has a pleasant way in trying to express the inexpressible. So if it interests you, please have a listen: "You are dreaming you are unenlightened; You are dreaming you are awake..." (Jed)

Yes you are right about allowing the experience of blissful states to remain. Its not that hard to do. Just keep creating the same causes for bliss over and over and over, and sure enough, blissful experiences will abound. Then what? So you develop the capacity to love unconditionally, you become super psychic, and emotionally mature (?) in all the shades... then what? Yes i know of many who spend all the best years of their lives chasing all the different levels of bliss, until they become so attached and stuck that they do not know where to go or what to do. So bliss, instead of aiding expansion, becomes its wrathful counterpart, and just contracts the person until... well, use your imagination. There are many bliss junkies everywhere, not only in spiritual circles. Many of these live the high life, without a single want for anything material. They work out, they have their own minders, caretakers, butlers etc. Sure we read about all the stuff they get up to, the problems, the addictions - ask yourself why these things happen to people who (by golly) by normal standards, live like kings and queens?!! The principle is the same. Appearances may differ, but in essence, the cultivation and experience of acquired, impermanent states will have to seek expression in one way or another. The virtuous ones express them virtuously through their lifestyles, their demeanor, their interactions with others; alternatively the less virtuous ones express them in less virtuous ways. Its all relative. One cannot plant an apple seed and expect to get a plum fruit. There has to be integrity and accountability at some stage.

An admirable quality indeed Ninpo.. A quick answer here (a bit drawn out but please bear with me) to the question you posed earlier regarding bliss/joy: (from personal insight using Buddhi-ish understanding/teachings) All states that are manifested are neither good nor bad. They are all results of certain practices. These practices can be cultivated virtuously, or otherwise. When cultivated virtuously, the fruits will be virtuous, and will give rise to yet other virtuous seeds, which in turn will produce virtuous fruits, and so on. Its like a spiraling effect. With diligence, coupled with other virtuous means of cultivation, these right virtues will arise naturally. So bliss and joy are considered consequences, meaning they can both be the effect and the cause of other virtues. There is no need to chase or hanker after them. To do so would attract the potential for unwholesome seeds to germinate, which may give rise to intents of greed, jealousy, envy, anger and so on. These intents are seeds that get sown in the mind, and given the appropriate conditions, will manifest. In time, these seeds may give rise to unwholesome thoughts, feelings, words and actions. If there is great mindfulness, then usually they can be spotted before any damage is done. If unnoticed, they become taints to the already gathered virtues, and thru this, the good fruits already cultivated can become unwholesome too. To prevent this from happening, the Buddha gave many teachings (according to some, it is said He gave a total of 84,000 different teachings to suit all the different needs of beings, but this is not relevant here) and paths towards stabilizing the new-born virtues, making them strong and resolute to ensure one does not fall off the wagon. So states like bliss, joy, peace, happiness, all these are seedlings of enlightenment. They have to be nurtured diligently with the right practices thru mindful cultivation. One has to ever watchful, because every intention, no matter how subtle, will carry its equivalent latent energy, and when the conditions are ripe, they will sprout. In the same way, one is always encouraged to be watchful of the subtle (intentions, motives) to the less subtle (thoughts, feelings, emotions) to the grosser (words and deeds). There cannot be any doubt about this, since the law of cause and effect shows no bias, at work 25/8! However, it is good to remember these states are not permanent, and when their energetic karmic winds cease, they will also cease. Cessation, however, does not mean dissapearance, for they can be 'transferred' to even higher states, or transcended states thru more practice. Of course, if one becomes filled with pride and think one has arrived, then the spiral of going backwards come into effect. Nothing stays still. Being impermanent, they will lead to greater and higher realizations. If they were permanent, it would mean one cannot go any further (stuck), and this negates and defeats the whole purpose of spiritual cultivation. When these realizations become second nature, then one is said to be resting once again in primordial awakeness. But there are no assurances even then. This awakeness too has to endure a period of stabilization. If one loses one's mindfulness, distractions will creep in like a stealthy thief in the night, and as mentioned, could pose a threat to even very highly realized masters (already mentioned in other threads). Eventually, complete union is achieved by the realizer. This means that 'Method' (cultivation of virtues thru practice) which the initial path emphasizes, and which also keeps one grounded, will in time bring forth 'Wisdom' (non-conceptual realization, or some call this the deepest bodhichitta) - and when these two merge, all the good and right virtues spontaneously arise in one's being, and will no longer dissipate. In other words, self is dropped, only virtuous actions remain. Good things get done, but there will no longer be a doer of these things. Some call this state complete liberation, or total awakening. Something to reflect on. I am sure others here will have even deeper insights into what i have said, so please feel free to add or subtract! Thanks.

Without being brash, can you please point out the exact formulas offered by these other traditions? I would love to learn of them and put them to use. I am open to anything that works, logically and conclusively, step by step. The methods are primary. Not who has the exclusive rights, or how they came about. I can learn history from books or online. What interests me is what you practice that you think exceeds those offered in the buddhist teachings? If we can compare notes on this, i am sure i can come away with some benefit, since I am not stuck on dogma. The question is - can you? At the core of the buddhist method that leads to freeing the self from mental afflictions lie the truth that when virtues are cultivated, one gets virtuous results. Kick the sandbag, and both the sandbag and the kicker moves, not only the sandbag. Kick the wall, and we injure the foot. Things like that. Very simple logic. This is not buddhist logic. Its commonsense, mostly. I am sure many other traditions share similar logic coupled with practical applications. In the Buddhist teachings these are all laid out very clearly and even those with minimal intelligence can apply them to gain peace and happiness, and freedom from being unclear about how to proceed further on the spiritual path. There is not much requirement in it for the trial-and-error approach. So if you can share your insights on what you found to be more effective than those offered in the buddhist teachings, you are welcome to share them here. I for one would be very grateful.

Enlightenment isn't some big mystery. Of course enlightened masters know. If you don't know that you're awake, then you're not awake... very simple. Naturally one would know. But normally those that do do not advertise or make a big fuss about it. They let their deep insights do the talking. Did you know that duck eggs are as nutritious, if not more so, than chicken eggs? Have you ever pondered why chicken eggs outsell duck eggs? Thats because chickens make a big fuss after eggs have been laid, whereas ducks simply give their bootys little, unnoticeable shakes after doing so, and just walks off, and carry on with business. No big deal. Thats why chickens get more attention - they create the causes for people to notice them. In the spiritual 'farm', as in life, the same principle is always at work. Wisdom and awareness arise together and can be likened to be the same. There is a lot of unawareness in this world.... Many dim lights. They all have the potential for vast wisdom, but there is a huge difference between actualized potential and dormant potential. It is so, as you say. If you believe that all paths are the same, then you must believe that enlightenment occurs without any conditions. In that case, you might as well sit on your couch and watch movies all day. Don't even think about enlightenment, forget about it. Don't make any effort to change your habits and transform yourself into a more loving open confident and connected being. Just don't. There is no path! I really don't get how people can believe this and yet practice... Practice is essential! You gotta DO! There are many who are unsure of their convictions, hence the normal thing to say is all paths lead to same destination. In fairness, its not that there is a 'no path' declaration made by anyone. What differentiates the Buddhist path in this age from others is that ultimately there is no destination, no arrival. People generally become anxious about this, which is a normal reaction. As long as samsara exists, duality will perpetuate, and the teachings that show the means and point the way to end mental afflictions will arise. Again, in this age it seems that the Buddhist teachings can offer the most efficacious means towards liberation from the kleshas (mental angst) - who knows, maybe in the distant future, names will change, but evolution will ensure that the teachings will always continue. Yes, practice is essential. The right ones. Keep to the basics, and resist the temptation to desire quick results. Once the causes for happiness and freedom are understood, the often stressful need to generate and focus on the results diminishes. This leads to other virtues. (Read the discourse posted on page 1). Now I think the issue is that people think that Buddhist enlightenment is simply dissolving the self and having nondual experence. If that was it then yes Buddhism is just another method, but that's NOT the goal. Nonduality is only halfway there. Other mystical traditions stop at 'dissolving the self' but Buddhists (should) keep going. Enlightenment is when there is realization that there is nothing BUT the interplay of phenomena which all lack 'self-ness'. There is no separation (since everything is interdependent) but I am NOT you. There is a big difference between saying You and I are the same, and saying you and I are interdependent and lack self, but still exist relatively. Good point Mikael. Enlightenment is not a state of consciousness, because all states arise interdependently and don't last. You can't focus your mind for 30 minutes to become enlightened and then fall back again. That's just an impermanent state which arose dependent on you concentrating. Enlightenment is realization, an insight, which does occur dependently but lasts permanently and encompasses all states of consciousness. It is the realization that all states of mind, all phenomena experienced by mind, and mind itself are all interdependent arisings.Not two, not one. Enlightenment - maybe an ability to let go when its time to let go - let go of what one may ask? Of clinging to views that may be wrong or outdated. Insights are tools for transformation. Once they have been utilized to reach the shores of enlightenment, they will need to be discarded, or else 'lightness' becomes 'heaviness'. Even Buddhist teachings are only relatively precious. These too one has to know when to let them go, with a grateful heart, that is. Offer them to those who also want to taste freedom. Sometimes true compassion means letting it go, and passing the wisdom to others. Some will be grateful, others will sometimes spit at the giver. In this patience and equanimity is learnt. Thru patience, nothing is unattainable. The language used by mystics allows you to get a peak into their realizations. Once you understand the 'map' then you can clearly see who is where. This sort of hierarchal view bothers some people. Maybe because they really want to believe that we're all on an Escalator to Heaven. In my experience, debating with people like Vajra, who is a very experienced practitioner, brought up fear and anxiety about my own path. It really made me question whether I truly understood the path and goal. It tore my life apart for a couple years, but was well worth it. Not many people allow themselves to be torn up like that. I found it be very positive, eventually People allow themselves to be bothered. This is due to incorrect understanding. The escalator analogy is nice. There is no escalator, as you say. A ferris wheel perhaps, but no escalator.. Vaj has insights. Deep ones. People do not feel he is skillful in the way he presents them. They feel like its being rammed down somewhere, and this creates discomfort. Its natural. Something to work with perhaps. Thanks!

Hi Adept, I agree with what you said that there are many who have awakened (and will continue to awaken) without the need to bind themselves to a particular tradition. Names and labels are merely conventions after all, and in the bigger picture, in the absolute sense, they are all meaningless jargon. But in a relative world, it might be helpful for those who want to be more practical in their approach towards awakening, in that they might want to learn some relevant methodology that can transport them quickly towards this understanding of what awakening truly is, and what can take them there without much fuss. I was wondering if you can prescribe a relatively practical way that can be shown to such inquiring minds? According to the view you hold, you are without blinkers, so in fact, this means you are able to 'see more' than those who have blinkers. I too am blinkered, so i am willing to learn how, in what practical, step-by-step manner, did you arrive at this unblinkered state of being? Assuming i am of dull mind, what will you prescribe as an aid to overcome this dullness? I am sincerely wanting to learn. I found the Sutta (mentioned in my first post here) to be very relevant and practical in its erudition - a very simple, logical path that can bring one to the banks of liberation. Thru reflecting on it mindfully against daily, personal interactions, and against the arisings in the mind, i have found it to be a simple, straightforward, no bull explanation on what to do if one wants to 'attain' to true and complete cessation of mental anguish and frustrations. Those who are more advanced than me have verified that there are even deeper layers of transcendental insights to be gleaned from it, but alas, i have not reached their level of brilliance. Thats why i said i still have blinkers on. If you, or anyone else here for that matter, who can expound a more concise teaching on the path to liberation, i, and many others here i'm quite certain, would be most grateful for said teaching. I know there will be those who would do the dismissive thing and say, oh, just drop the blinkers, and all will become clear. My blinkers happen to be quite welded on thru years of ingrained bad habits, some i know about, while others are beyond my knowledge, popping up only now and then to disrupt my apparent self-projected harmony and quietude. So what, in your esteemed experience, is the simplest and most direct, easy to follow method that can help me to disengage the welding, so to speak? Heartfelt thanks if you can offer me a key to unlock these heavy chains that bind. I know there many systems available where its claimed they have the key, but having tried many of them (over 30 years of vain attempts), i still found the key offered in the Buddhist teachings to be the most pragmatic and without vagueness. Too bad people have to attach a kind of guilt-by-association thing on them, thereby creating a lot of unnecessary aversions in the process. Because of this, only those free of hang-ups seem to be able to take the teachings to heart without having to call themselves Buddhist or whatever - again, more labels. Such a waste. I truly look forward to any wise methods (from anyone please) that can be easily understood and applied in this particular regard.

Yes, i think i can see why you thought it was a bit robust. I am a bit lost in the intricacies of choosing when to laugh and when not to, i guess. Like when you quoted that genie thing in the other thread - was that meant to be humorous? There was a few 'laughter' emoticons inserted by a couple of posters... i wonder what kind of humor would you classify that under, if ever you thought that was funny? Can i laugh at that too? Or is that out of bounds to those who practice the Buddhist path? No worries, i am not looking to lock horns with anyone. Just thought i'd let you i have read this rather peculiar query, that's all.

Ha ha ha! You make my belly roll with laughter (sorry Michael, just found it hard to resist saying that ) As though your words would achieve the desired effect of harmonizing what you perceive to be discord. Look into your own 'clarity' and nonchalance first before anyone else's will ya? If i did not know better by now, i can offer a rebuttal, but then it would mean a delay in watching exciting tennis on tv. So goooodbye, and enjoy your frustrations, Tzu Jan. Not many will join you i believe, especially those who are not so prone to emotional outbursts.

I have a premonition that this thread could match the length of the Haiku Chain... just kidding! Wonderful questions Ninpo, and i am sure you will get a glimpse into this from all the brilliant minds we are fortunate enough to have on this forum. Since you specifically mentioned Vaj, it might dampen my inspiration somewhat, although as yet it hasn't, nonetheless about 300 posts down, when the 'simmering' stage sets in, perhaps then there will be some kind of decorum reached, and things/views will fabric themselves into coherency, or more accurately, at least a reflection of it. Here is my little chip.. (and you can have my chair too if that's what it takes!) - - Please bear with me if i have to resort to quoting some teachings found in the Suttas - i wish i was more skillful in my spontaneity but then i might just mess things up for you. As you know, Right View is rather stressed in relation to this, and its hard to stray from this when one has the 'operations manual' as a guide... in this instance, the Anguttara Nikaya is used. This is the discourse the Buddha gave called The Discourse on Forming an Intention: "The virtuous one, endowed with virtue, need not form an intention 'may my conscience be clear'. It is natural for the virtuous one endowed with virtue to have a clear conscience. Having a clear conscience, there is no need to will 'may i feel joy'. Joy naturally arises in those who have a clear conscience. The joyful need not decide 'may i be filled with rapture'. Joyfulness naturally produces rapture. There is no need for the enraptured to resolve 'may my body calm down'. It is natural in the enraptured for the body to calm down. With a body at rest there is no need to form the intention 'may i experience bliss'. When the body is at rest, there is a natural experience of bliss. The blissful do not need to will 'may my mind become composed'. The mind of the blissful is naturally composed. When the mind is composed, there is no need to think (more accurately to grasp with the mind) 'may i have knowledge and vision of experience as it is'. With the mind composed, one naturally sees and knows experience as it is. Knowing and seeing experience as it is, there is no need to form an intention 'may I become weary of experience and give rise to dispassion (towards experience). It is natural when seeing experience as it is that one becomes wearisome and turns away from the falseness of fleeting experiences. Weary of experience and disinterested in it, there is no need to wish 'may i experience for myself the knowledge and vision of liberation'. For, weary of experience and disinterested in it one naturally experiences knowledge and vision of liberation. Thus the benefit and the blessing of being fed up with experience and turning away from it IS the knowledge and vision of Liberation. The benefit and the blessing of knowing experience as it is is wearying of experience and turning away from it. The benefit and the blessing of a composed mind is knowing experience as it is. The benefit and the blessing of bliss is a composed mind. The benefit and the blessing of a calm body is blissfulness. The benefit and the blessing of rapture is the calming down of the body. The benefit and the blessing of joy is rapture. The benefit and the blessing of a clear conscience is joy. The benefit and the blessing of behaving virtuously is a clear conscience. Thus each one fills up the next, each one is fulfilled by the next, and goes from the near shores to the far shores." This teaching of the Sutta is quite clear in itself how liberation can be brought about. Enlightenment is a natural process. One virtue leads to another, each one filling up the next, and in turn becomes a fulfillment for the virtue to come. As an example, people often declare, "I just want to be filled with joy all the time!" By understanding the deep meaning of this Sutta, there is no need actually to form a conscious intention to be joyful, and chase after those things that we think will lead us to a joyful disposition. Often these things, on the contrary, lead us further away from that which is sought after. If one wants to be joyful, simply look into the conditions that bring about joy, with emphasis on cultivating virtues. The text says that if one practices virtue in the Buddhist sense of the word, then all else follow quite naturally. There is compelling logic to this. At the same time it is also very pragmatic, and taught in the spirit of "Go and test it out for yourselves". It does not mean no effort is needed - more like it requires plenty of right effort. But if one do not neglect the foundations, then the rest will fall into place. It becomes a spiraling natural progression, and this progression is seen in all of life's unfolding, so its not anti-nature, not dogmatic, and not impractical, as such. Learning to begin viewing in this way, one can have a good footing in the spiritual life. It enables reasonable contemplation, and by putting this into practice in one's own experiences, one begins to notice the profound truth of this teaching. When it found to be true, and workable, insight into what Enlightenment is follows naturally. And as they say, the rest is history... (now i am going to watch some Wimbledon tennis, with peanuts in hand hehe)... No more thinking and wondering what Enlightenment is, hopefully for ever. Have fun wherever you are, and cast all doubts to the winds of change.

Is it just me, or is there some contradiction in this observation? How did you come upon this view, if not through the process of intellectualization? Embracing logical, concrete philosophical deductions can be very productive, to a large extent. It often puts an end to doubt-filled ambiguity (the phrase, "Everything that is, has always ever been, and will always ever be", is an example of ambiguity - no rudeness intended, btw). This can be called 'Having the right means'. They only become hindrances when it makes one form the idea, and cling on that idea, that one has 'arrived' somewhere, which brings pride to birth. This occurs when one does not possess 'Correct View'. Then they are no longer of benefit - instead they have been made into stumbling blocks on the way. So the saying goes, "The right means in the wrong hands turn out to be wrong means after all."

Actually its not really just intellectual 'self' masturbation Dwai. This is too simplistic a stand to take. Even if it is so, should someone be able to glean some 'moisturized' wisdom (as opposed to the dry, wtf kind, which is often rough, crackly and fragile) from this, and arrives at the realization that perhaps it does makes sense to be watchful and take responsibility not only for one's actions but for one's thoughts as well, for they both have consequences regardless of being aware of them or not, then the theory of AV would have served at least one purpose, and cannot then be declared a useless 'self-pleasuring toy'. Maybe this realization would prompt others dazed from lifetimes of conditioned, presupposed, self-centered will to cease 'masturbating', to wake up and be counted. This could then incite them to practice some form of energy-saving 'retention' (like mindfulness meditation, for eg), and perhaps by doing so, could potentially even end up awakening their dormant energy centre. How bad is that? After all, if one can begin to see how habitual responses can be transformed through understanding why this very transformation is so crucial, and then cultivate the skills to bring about beneficial outcomes, it can be extremely empowering and can be a source of immense freedom and energy. This post above on AV is the expression of one writer's personal understanding based upon her own investigations. It is neither right or wrong. A bit of flexibility and encompassing wisdom on your part would have shown that you are indeed set apart from those whom you deem to be fixated, inflexible and uncompromising. You are of course free to say there is totally no wisdom in this theory at all, but please, be magnanimous enough to credit it the 'moisturizing' effect it at least contains - then this masturbatory act you declared would not be so devoid of meaning, and can be viewed as not without traces of dignity attached to it.

Just a short expansion on the above: "In Tibetan Buddhism, an important place has been given to the theories concerning the Alaya Vijnana. Alaya is a Sanskrit word which means dwelling, receptacle, and/or store. We meet it in the well-known name of the high mountain chain: the Himalayas, or receptacle of the snows. Alaya Vijnana is then akin to a receptacle of the consciousness. The Alaya Vijnana, receptacle of consciousness, is not mentioned in Tibet in the outer, popular teachings of an elementary kind. We find it in the kind called nang, or 'inner' teachings, and in the sang wai damnags, teachings which are oral and secret. What is said about this Alaya Vijnana? Every action, either physical or mental, every movement occurring either on the plane of gross/dense matter or on the plane of the mind, causes an emission of energy (in Sanskrit this 'energy' is termed 'shakti'). To use the established expression, it produces a seed. This seed, in the same way as all material seeds, tends - given favorable circumstances - to produce a 'being' (or formation) of the same species as that of the parent who transmits these seeds. The seed of an oak tree tends to produce another oak tree, the seed an animal, say a dog or a bird, tends to produce a dog or a bird. Likewise, the innumerable energy-seeds launched into the universe by desire, aversion, love, hatred, and the actions CAUSED by these feelings, by attachment to individual existence with the material activity which it excites in order to preserve that individual existence in order to perpetuate it (an evolutionary paradigm), to increase its power and enlarge its sphere of action, all these seeds tend to produce the counterparts of their parents either psychic or material. In order that the seed should be sown, it is no way necessary that the feelings we experience should be materialized in action. The mental aspirations which we entertain without realizing them, those also which we restrain, our thoughts of whatever kind they may be, unceasingly gives out seeds. Furthermore, the hidden activities, always at work in spite of ourselves, in the subconscious part of our being, is one of the most powerful sources from which are thrown out these seeds. It is necessary to understand and grasp the full implications that there is not a blade of grass, not a grain of sand, which is not a 'sower' of seed by the activity of its mere physical presence and by that of a deeper, psychic lifespan, peculiar to its species, which we must in no way imagine to be similar to our own. There cannot happen the least movement - in this world which is movement -without this movement starting other movements, other manifestations of energy tending to repetitions, in dependence of memories (vasana) or, as the Tibetans call them, pag chag, propensities. Each of our physical or mental movements is the fruit of causes coming from the whole universe and has its repercussions in the whole universe. Thus opens up the working, without beginning and end, of the activity which is the Universe. According to one of the theories concerning the energy-seeds thrown out into the universe, these are stored up in a receptacle (alaya) where they remain in the state of latent energies which, in order to manifest themselves, only await the appearance of suitable conditions, just as the seed stored up in a barn will not develop until it is put in contact with other elements (damp earth, warmth etc). Nevertheless, suitable conditions continually appear - thus while some seeds flow steadily into the receptacle, other seeds equally steadily flow out in the form of replicated habits, of propensities, of 'memories' - either of a physical or of a psychical kind which then encourages the repetition of material actions or mental activities which have previously occurred. What are the 'conditions' which allow the germination of these seeds? They are themselves the product of seeds, for nothing exists outside the round of actions and their fruit, of the enchainment of causes and the effects, the cause being the effect of the preceding cause and the effects becoming the cause of another effect. (According to the expression of certain Mahayanists, the Alaya is an 'uninterrupted river with a continuous current'. This analogy was purposely built in to further the understanding that this receptacle of consciousness, this abode of seeds, should in no way be seen as some immobile storehouse somewhere.) This view of the Alaya Vijnana are based on the fundamental impermanence of all phenomena and on the fact that these same phenomena are compounded of various aggregates. The seeds, byproducts of mental activity which may or may not be associated with material activity, and which also include various other elements, cannot be considered permanent. Like all formations, they consist of successive, fugitive instants. Hence what sort of receptacle can one imagine which would contain in a waiting state, that is to say, in a state of repose, that which is elusive, having no appreciable duration? In truth, there exists only the perpetual flow, both continuous (it never stops) and discontinuous (it also consists of distinct moments), of flashes of energetic force; causes and effects which engender each other in such a way that the parent-cause can never know its off-spring effect for it disappears while the latter emerges, or rather, it is its disappearance itself which constitutes its emergence: a new phenomenon. Lending support to the theory of the Alaya Vijnana, Vasubandhu stated: The act ends immediately after being born, thus one cannot admit that it can itself produce the fruit, but it transmits to the root of consciousness (mula vijnana) virtualities, energies or seeds which will produce its fruit. These virtualities are called vasana, or 'memories'. It is not enough to ponder this theory or read further philosophic expansions on it. It has to be seen by oneself, as a result of perspicacious insight, with penetrating and transcendent vision - only then can one see 'more' (Tib. Lhag thong) - to see beyond appearances and penetrate the illusory sheaths that veil the eyes." (Source cannot be cited)

Quite original must say - well done! ............... unconditional the body's breath in motion undulating waves...

Wing Chun Sifu Gary Lam: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/ A friend who teaches Wing Chun in Texas said to me one day that Gary's mastery of Wing Chun is second to none. All the best in your training!

I am grateful for all your insights Vajrahridaya, and for the constant reminders to maintain right view. Inspiring, to say the least. I can see your sincerity, and the fact that there are no motives behind your words other than being a vehicle to carry the words of the Tathagata is truly admirable. Unlike me, you are a true ambassador of buddhadharma, a fact recognisable thru your deep, spontaneous understanding and expression of the teachings. May your progress be swift, and your path free from obstacles. May all beings develop right view, and be free from the causes of ignorance and deep sorrows. May all beings enjoy the fruits thereof. _/\_

Well if you are sad just stop being sad. You perceive, from where you stand, that there is politicking going on. Thats your own perception. It may only be correct from where you are at. If you look a bit higher and further, sadness will disappear. In the spiritual and mystical realms which you speak about, sadness/happiness does not truly exist. In politics, yes - the politicians are happy, and we the people are generally the sad bunch, for obvious reasons. So if you are sad, you have made this choice to remain within the 'victim' mentality. Since there are many here who prefer to overcome this sort of mentality in one way or another, the focus (your focus) could be redirected/channelled in more constructive ways. When you do that, you will stop being sad. Sorry for giving the smartass impression. Actually i was writing something in agreement to Altiora's post, but decided to shift my focus instead. I remembered i have already voiced similar opinions in an earlier post.

Hagar, You do not realise how much of a saintly nature you possess. This post-reflection says it all. Herein is your wisdom light shining brightly, and i thought it would be nice to let you know it warms my morning..