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More than this, i do recall in one of your earlier posts you stressed the need to strip the gurus (i assumed you meant individuals) so i responded in that vein. However, i fully agree with your thoughts here on the institutions. In the last 10 years i have seen many supposedly traditional spiritual lineages being corporatized, with the latest management systems put in place to be run like fortune500 companies. Not saying this is bad. Just a sign of the times i suppose. As more and more influential Western patrons become benefactors, perhaps these systems become one type of means of accountability to safeguard 'investments'. The downside, i suppose, is that some individuals who have distorted expectations of these traditional schools will decry this 21st century spiritual makeover - mistaking progress in organization for spiritual corruption.

I can understand where most of your points are coming from. You have articulated well - many thanks for that. I just want to add that i too, have had the affinity to meet many teachers in the few years i have tried to broaden my spiritual understanding, and thus far have not met one who was arrogant enough to proclaim that somehow they are in possession of a kind of secret higher knowledge and ought to be kowtowed to based on that. This is just my personal experience, which in no way is a suggestion that i am so naive as to say that there are no scoundrels out there. Of course there are, within all traditions. Even the real masters themselves acknowledge this. The ideas of subservience to a physical person (as in gurus) when one embarks on the spiritual path are all based on false understanding, and more often than not, completely blown out of context. No true masters expect such subservience, yet they are the ones who are often paid the highest homage. We need to investigate why this is so, and to do this, we cannot simply lump all the apples into one basket, and proclaim there, these guys are all the same - this is not investigation, more like accusations. Individual gurus have individual merits. Should we feel the need to venerate, perhaps more than the person, is the veneration of merits, those that we ourselves aspire to realize. Ultimately, whatever humility is offered up, with hearts and minds opened, can only do more good than harm.

sake cup half-full some roasted peanuts nearby... aah.. paradise found!

Generally speaking, you could say that almost everyone experiences abiding in an enlightened state occasionally - in other words we all get glimpses now and then. Some connect with it during a brisk walk at dawn, some while taking a shower, some while engrossed in hobby, while painting etc. and some maybe when they witness the birth of a child. It could be anything really, not restricted to any grand displays of mystical revelations, or the descend of any Spirit. At these moments, all ideas about mundaneness vs mystic revelations are dropped, and there is a space, or spaciousness might be a better word, where the self is actually absent, with no reference point whatsoever remaining. Some recognize this, some do not. Those that do, and realize its significance, may want to delve deeper, or prolong the insight, whereby they will then resort to various means to do so. Those that do not recognize, but intuit that there is something more, that there are sublime levels to explore, may approach gurus who may or may not point them in the right direction. Hence i would suggest here that the process of enlightenment is merely to first recognize these sparkly moments (thanks Vaj!), and then do the necessary to expand on them, to gradually make them more habitual, more expansive, so that as time goes by, it pervades one's being, until there no longer exist a separation between when one is or is not in enlightenment. So to conclude, i would add that a tradition which points out a person's flawed state and claim that something there needs fixing is not a genuine tradition, and ought to be treated with suspect. Enlightenment has never been a destination anyway... The extinction of delusions, phobias and biases points one in that direction, which is right here, right now. We just need to first recognize.

for the joy of it feel the wind in a tea-cup not tea-cup in wind...

Well said. Being an Easterner i would endorse this observation. I believe there are a few Western 'eastern philosophy' scholars that have also presented this view. Off the top of my head, i can think of Alan Watts (cited well in his book "The Meaning of Happiness") and B. Alan Wallace. A great talk here by Alan Wallace, explaining how Buddhism encapsulates/integrates the pursuits of happiness and virtue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bf6D5T-EVw. (encourage all to listen/watch this - succinct presentation.) His background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Alan_Wallace (for those who might be interested to follow up, he also gave a talk on 'Free Will' found on YT)

Sorry Mr Songs if you misapprehended. Its not you sir! I was actually thinking of someone else, one who thinks Buddhists are a deluded bunch, the Buddha invented suffering (ok only Buddhists suffer haha) and then 'sold' the concept in order to reap all the cream of the karma for himself! :P

No overtaking. so says the folks dressed in blue - "Undertakers' Strike"

Have been re-reading 'Rainbow Painting' (http://www.rangjung.com/books/rainbow_painting.htm) by the above teacher, and would like to share here quite a long extract relating to the cultivation of mindfulness, which in some ways feels very much in accord with true Wu Wei. Apologies in advance for the length, but if understood, makes the effort fulfilling. Have fun! _/\_ "This case is a good example for the famous phrase, 'The artificial leads to the natural.' First apply the method; then, once you are in the natural state, allow its continuity. Of course, after a while our attention begins to wander again. We may not even notice the distraction - it is as subtle and sneaky as a thief. But having noticed the distraction, apply mindfulness and remain naturally. This natural state is effortless mindfulness. What is important here is a sense of natural ongoingness or continuity. Strike a bell, and the sound will continue for some time. In the same way, by deliberate mindfulness you recognize the essence, and that recognition lasts for some time. As it is unnecessary to continually press the light switch in a lit room, likewise you do not have to keep striking the bell to make the sound last. When recognizing mind essence, you simply let be. Simply leave it as it is, and it will last for a short while. This is called 'sustaining the continuity'. Nonfabrication means not to stray from this continuity. Our main obstacle to practice is being distracted. The very moment you recognize mind essence, it is seen that there is no 'thing' to see. There is no act of meditating at that point; it is seen in the moment of looking. When recognizing, simply leave it, without tampering with or modifying it in any way: this is called nonfabrication. Once that continuity is lost, we are distracted, carried away. There is no distraction within the continuity - distraction is impossible. Losing the continuity is the same as being distracted, which actually means forgetting. A trained practitioner will notice the 'view' has been lost. The very moment of perceiving 'I lost the view; I was carried away', recognize again, and you will immediately see emptiness. At that point leave it as it is. You do not have to have anxiety or fear about this - these are only more thoughts. From where did these thoughts come? They are none other than the expression of awareness. Awareness is emptiness, its expression is thought. The Kagyu teachings say, 'In the beginning, thoughts are like snowflakes falling on the surface of a lake'. The lake is a body of water. The snowflakes are also water. When they meet, they mingle indivisibly. In the recognition of mind nature (the view), the thought has no power to stand on its own. It simply vanishes. Just as our nature is emptiness, so is the nature of the thought. The moment of recognizing the thinker as empty cognizance is like the snowflake meeting the water. This is certainly different from the thought process of an ordinary person, which is actively involved in either anger, desire or dullness. These kinds of thoughts are like etchings in stone. A karmic trace is left behind. Thought activity in a yogi's mind, on the other hand, is like writing on the surface of water. The thought arises, the essence is recognized... the thought dissolves. We cannot totally eliminate our thoughts right away. However, after repeatedly recognizing the essence, thoughts will gradually diminish. The essence itself is totally free of conceptual thinking. Yet at the same time, its expression IS conceptual thinking. Do not focus your attention on the expression. Rather, recognize the essence; then the expression has no power to remain anywhere. At this point, the expression simply collapses or folds back into the essence. As we become more stable in recognizing the essence free from conceptual thinking, its expression as conceptual thoughts becomes increasingly baseless or unfounded. As conceptual thinking diminishes and finally vanishes, what is left to cause us to wander endlessly in samsara? The very basis for samsaric existence is none other than conceptual thinking. In the face of directly seeing emptiness, the thought cannot remain, just as no object can remain in mid-air. When we do not recognize emptiness, we are carried away continuously by thoughts. One thought after another is how the mind of sentient beings work, day and night. From beginningless lifetimes until now, thoughts have incessantly followed one another, like beads on a string. Yet the essence of each of these thoughts is emptiness, if we could only recognize it. Repeatedly you hear, 'recognize mind essence; attain stability in that'. What this really means is that we should repeatedly look into what thinks. We should recognize the absence or emptiness of this thinker over and over again, until finally the power of deluded thinking weakens, until it is totally gone without a trace. At that point, what remains to prevent the state of enlightenment? Buddha nature is something we already possess. It is not a product of meditation practice; nor is it something we need to accumulate or achieve. However, unless we (learn to repeatedly) recognize it, we gain no benefit whatsoever from possessing it. All of our thoughts come out of the buddha nature as its expression, like rays of sunlight emanating from the sun. It is not that the sun comes out of the rays. That's why, in the beginning, you should look into mind essence until you have clearly 'established the natural state'. Once the natural state has been established, there is no point in looking here or there. It does not make any difference any longer. At that level, there is an inherent stability in emptiness. Nowhere on the face of this earth, nowhere under the heavens, can you find a more effective training for attaining buddhahood. It does not really matter whether we call our practice Mahamudra or Dzogchen. What is more important is that the remembering to recognize and the act of recognizing should be simultaneous, without the slightest time lapse between the two. We do not have to dance around after we remember to recognize and then sit down and recognize. We do not have to make a show out of it. We do not have to first turn right, then turn left, then look up and then down and only then recognize. The very moment you look, it is immediately seen that there is no 'thing' to see. It is seen in the moment of looking. In that very moment of seeing, it is free from thought. Isn't it much less hassle to practice something this simple? This is also called Prajnaparamita, transcendent knowledge, because it is beyond or on the other side of a conceptual frame of mind. This transcendent knowledge is not lying around a little out of the way, so that we need to look slightly more to the left, or a little more to the right, or a little deeper inside. If it were like this, it would be difficult to recognize because we could somehow miss it. When you point at space, do you point first, and then reach space. or do you contact space the moment you point? Is there anything between your finger and space? When i ask this, i am not talking about the blue-colored daytime sky. I am talking about actually touching space. Understand this example: this is exactly what is meant by. 'It is seen in the moment of looking. It is free in the moment of seeing'. The first moment of looking into mind essence is called the Mindfulness of Deliberate Attention. The second moment, described as 'free in the moment of seeing', does not mean one should look more, thinking, "Now, where is it? I had better look closer!" This creates more thinking. If you continue with "Now i see it! Where is it? I want to see it!", in this case you are just creating more thoughts within the state of buddha nature, a state that is by itself free from thought. Because we have been carried away from the (original) state by conceptual thinking since beginningless lifetimes, we will again be swept away by the strength of habit. When this happens, you must notice, 'I am distracted'. People who never received a teaching like this never even understand that they are being carried away. But someone who has received this teaching, and who has seen that there is no 'thing' to see, will also notice when their attention wanders away from this. They can recognize distraction. Then they can look into "Who" is being carried away? That immediately brings about the meeting with buddha nature. At that moment, just leave it as it is. When we grow used to this practice, we can discard such thoughts as "I need to be undistracted", or "I need to remember", or "Now I remember. Now I forgot". As stability in effortless mindfulness increases, these ideas are slowly relinquished. Throughout all our lifetimes, we get caught up in the arising and ceasing of thoughts. A teacher will say, "Lets give these two states names. When thinking takes place, call it 'occurrence'. When there are no thoughts, call it 'stillness'. This is pointing out occurrence and stillness. Normally people do not notice these two states. They do not know the difference between occurrence and stillness. The teacher will also say, "Your mind is like a person who does not work all the time. At times he takes a rest. Sometimes he moves around and other times he sits still and does nothing. Although the mind is empty, it neither works nor remains quiet all the time". Being able to notice its thought-occurrence and stillness doesn't mean one knows the real nature of one's mind. It is simply the ability to detect when there are thoughts and when there is not the presence and absence of thoughts. This is called 'knowing the character of the mind'. It is not knowing buddha nature. Sometimes your attention keeps still and sometimes it moves around. As long as you merely keep an eye on whether there is thinking or stillness and never go beyond this exercise, you will not reach enlightenment. The teacher then gives the next (level of) instructions, saying, "Now, don't just notice whether there is stillness or thought occurrence. When there is thinking, look into the thinker. When there is stillness, look into what feels the stillness". The student will return entirely bewildered and say, "When I look into what feels the stillness, I don't find anything whatsoever. When the thinking occurs and i look into what thinks, i don't find any 'thing' either. Not only that, but both the thinking and the feeling of stillness disappear. Now what am i supposed to do? Before i could take charge of something. I could identify the thinking and the stillness, but its not like that anymore. When i look into what thinks, the thinker vanishes. When i look into what is still, that too is also gone. I am at a complete loss. I have lost both the thinker and that which feels still". The teacher will reply, "No, you are not at all at a complete loss. Now you have arrived at Mahamudra, at the nature of mind. You need to train in this for months and years. Before you were only concerned with the manifestation, not with the nature. Now the manifestation has vanished. What is left is the nature itself". This is the traditional way of pointing out Mahamudra. What we ought to look into now from now on is that which thinks when we think, and that which feels still when we are quiet. All practices prior to this point are externalized, in that one watches what occurs as an object of the attention, "Now I'm thinking. Now I'm feeling still". In both these instances, the object of attention is externalized from oneself, from the one who watches. So, from this point on we internalize the practice by RECOGNIZING that which thinks or that which feels still, rather than observing the (sensate) feeling of it. It is easy for people to decide that mind is emptiness, but there is a difference between experiencing the real emptiness and experiencing the idea of emptiness, which is simply another thought. The essence of mind is primordially empty - there is no question about that. It is not composed of any material substance whatsoever. But when we attempt to articulate that, thinking, "Its empty. I see it!", then it becomes not empty. We understand that the master said, "Recognize your mind essence. See that there is no 'thing' to see. That is the real emptiness". Hearing this, its easy to form the thought, "This is emptiness. Yes, i see it!" - this is not real emptiness, but a fabrication, a fake. This counterfeit emptiness, a mere idea, does not cut through the root of the three poisons. In the moment of seeing that mind essence is not a 'thing' whatsoever, we should not become entangled with any thought. Never speculate "Now its empty" or "This is not empty" or "This is IT!", or "This is not IT!". In the very moment of looking, the real emptiness is instantly seen. The true emptiness, buddha nature, is naturally free from thought. This absence of all conceptual formulations is the special quality of the true Buddhist view. Other schools of spirituality may very well see the essence and understand that its empty, yet they fail to let go of the idea of what emptiness is. Regardless of whether it is eternalism or nihilism, whatever formulation we concoct strays from the real nature itself. Self-existing wakefulness does not have to thought of to be so. Emptiness does not have to be made; it is self-existent. It you need to construct it, how can it be self-existing? 'Self-existing' means it is not necessary to create it. Failing to acknowledge this is ignorance. The realization of natural emptiness is the only thing that can cut through thoughts. Thought cannot conquer thought. Moreover, when cutting through thoughts you simultaneously cut through the basis for the three realms of samsara. Some people believe that they should just keep on meditating, and someday their egg will hatch and they will fly out of the shell and ascend to a completely different level. Actually its not like this at all. We should not think, " The awakened state must be really something special. If I practice this long enough, one day a door will open and i will see it and all the qualities will pour into me". Its pointless to have such an attitude. If we want something spectacular, we will indeed have opportunities for that, in what is called the 'temporary meditation moods' of bliss, clarity and nonthought. These can occur, but such sensational experiences do not help cut through thoughts. On the contrary, they generate even more fixation because we start to think, "Wow! What is that? This must be IT!". Many subsequent thoughts will arise in response to the fascination with these experiences. As I mentioned before, realization involves a process called recognizing, training, and attaining stability. Its similar to planting the seed of a flower. You plant it, nurture it, and finally it grows up and blossoms. The moment of recognizing mind essence free from thought is like holding an authentic flower-seed in your hand and being certain of what it is. That itself is the self-existing wakefulness, the source of buddhahood. Enlightenment does not come from some other place."

Judge, jury and executioner honed to perfection here in this post. Like Robocop patrolling all of Vaj's posts! Prime example of a rare type of western mentality. I know of at least one other member here who behaves in a similar fashion, only a tad more refined, on the surface perhaps. Oh well... intelligence comes in all shapes and grades of coarseness, i suppose.

This is wonderful! Shen demonstrates Deliberate Mindfulness, and Huineng points to Effortless Mindfulness! Sadhu sadhu... Cheers Mark!

Worth noting. Thanks! Having been brought up in the East, and spending 20 years in the West, i can vouch for the accuracy of this observation.

This Silly Mountain does not go around aping people, Playing the clown, society's fool. It sits here alone, contented in solitude, perfect in peace. I should be so silly. ( from The Autobiography of Han Shan Te'-Ch'ing ) Thanks for the inspiring image L7S!

If you are beginning to see the true rainbow colors of the Buddhists, it means the dust is settling. That is wonderful Ralis! Your perceptions may be starting to purify.. its never too late eh? Language IS the quantitative tool that defines any belief system. It is more than adequate, in fact. Above and beyond beliefs, language has no purpose. Perhaps that is the more sensible route to freedom.

within, between them mind the gap betwixt two thoughts lengthen the spaces...

Yes! And the more settled the contemplation and integration, the closer one returns to his/her original nature. Wasn't there a Zen saying somewhere which mentions that when one is sitting in zazen, one is a buddha? (Or something to this effect...) It is when discursive thoughts begin to stir, that gradually distractions set in, and the 'be-ing' gets lost in translation. So over and and over the masters remind students to get used to the feeling of oneself as a buddha, thru meditation, visualizations, mantras and other means that arouse mindfulness, including skilled moments where the students get whacked with a stick or a slap, and a shout to "Wake Up!!" At the start of mindfulness practice the moments of distractions/settlement becomes quite stark, and for some this is the 'struggling' stage. At this point, the wise teachers usually remind the student not to be caught up with the idea of an independent self that struggles. After much inquiry, when the student finally understands the notion of non-self, (in tantra) the teacher will then say there is no need to run away from the struggle - instead work with it, understand the essence of the energy that birthed the struggle, and use it as a means for transformation. The master will help the student understand that unenlightened activity of struggle is self-centered negativity, whereas the enlightened activity of struggle transforms into great determination to deepen one's practice for the benefit of sentient beings. In true mindfulness, there is no need for avoidance, and especially in Dzogchen, students welcome adversity, for having liberated the self, all things are seen clearly as a play of energy - beyond conceptual good or bad. Some masters use the story of the mongoose which has the ability to make harmless even the most lethal snake venom as an example here. In essence all practices are aimed primarily at getting used to and being comfortable with one's deep intuition that indeed there is a nature of self that is untainted, undefiled, and ever light. It is this very aspect of one's being that training in mindfulness would hope to reveal, and a connection be re-established. ----- ------ ------ Btw Vaj i have not read 'Blazing Slendor' - is it a good read? Might try to get a copy if you think it would be worthwhile to do so. thanks.

"Drunk' as in a sort of daze. Or chasing after unrealistic fantasies, like powers, siddhis and such. "Being ordinary" can be interpreted as remaining in equanimous poise at all times, where the mind-chatter subsides at will.

Well yes... and no. Up until the end of March i was driving a bmw. Swapped that for a honda. Same sized engine, but running costs have been cut by 30%. Prestige at a price too high to pay, i believe. I also bought a bicycle, for the shorter trips to the shop and also for the exercise. Its great. Whats happening in the Gulf is a direct result of ignorance. Those who argue that science has advanced humanity is only half correct, IMO. Science has done wonderful things, but has also handed the edge to the 'powers-that-are' to do things with a kind of shadowy veil that allows them the edge to keep the average person out of the know, almost to the point of smirking, "What they do not know cant harm them" sort of way. Lets see the brilliance of science sort this mess out, hopefully without creating a sub-monster somewhere as a result.

Thank you, Mark, for taking the time to reflect on this. I think what the author said is to first recognize what is the true nature of the mind. Once that recognition has been established, the next stage is to be aware of when moments arise where this nature shines through and when it hides behind the clouds of thought. This requires effort, which he labels as deliberate mindfulness. For deliberate mindfulness to be effective, it may require getting used to, or habituating this 'new' awareness, to be alert as to when distractions arise, and maybe more important, to be vigilant as regards to those moments when distractions subside. To inculcate this mindfulness as habit takes time - some get it sooner, while others may require lengthier spans. Yet some will not get it at all, especially those that are in it for the 'power' - the bliss and the buzz so to speak. In order to make the process a whole lot simpler, the author advocates seeing directly into who is it that thinks, and who is there/here to feel the silence and the space when thoughts subside. I think this is one of the many aspects which makes Buddhism sparkle - the remarkable systems handed down by all the masters to assist the serious practitioner in his/her quest to inquire into the knowledge of self/no-self. Once this inquiry begin to bear fruit, it can be very freeing, because it would engender a release from being overly attached and confused by the arisings of the mind. Thanks again for responding, without which i would not have had the added bonus of a yet deeper reflection of the author's message. ------------------ @ Xabir - many thanks for the input. It is as you say. A good day to you both.

The powers of super-ordinariness. Those that will not get one 'drunk'. They open the diamond-eye so that things are seen as they are, without the need to add or take away anything. "Thirty years ago I was born into the world. A thousand, ten thousand miles I have roamed, by rivers where the green grass lies thick, beyond the borders where the red sand fly. I brewed potions in a vain search for life everlasting, I read books, I sang songs of history, and today I have come home to Cold Mountain to pillow my head on the stream and wash my ears." - Han Shan (750 - 800 CE) Taoist/Ch'an Hermit

This rather loud declaration of yours is in perfect congruence(not!) with the rest of your lengthy post. "Without prejudices" is so clearly demonstrated in each and every para! Which is wonderful cos it saves me the grief of having to pretend that i had to be 'nice' and hence needed to detail an equally lengthy reply. Btw, its great that you do remember and practice... its obvious you do, especially on the "clarity" bit.

I do not feel this is a very accurate observation Gold. The Dzogchen path is freely and openly available to all; however, it needs to be understood that there are stages to the path, namely outer, inner and 'secret', whereby the practitioner is encouraged to always train and stabilize, first of all, in the outer preliminaries, and then progress from there. This may take years, which involves doing at least a full year's retreat, or better still, a three year one. Unfortunately most folks, me included, due to impatience, find that we are not willing to put in this kind of effort to 'get' only basic pay-back, for we want the high-end yields immediately, which of course the genuine lineage masters of Dzogchen (those who do not do it for the money that is) will be forever reluctant to pass on. I think its for this reason that we often observe as you have done here.

Educated common sense - is this another way of saying that everyone ought to be 'boxed' in by snuggling inside the safety zone of scientific fact? Educated common sense has been dismal thus far in alleviating even the simplest human conditions, like starvation for example. Humanity is slowly choking to death from its reliance on 'common sense' to find solutions to address its physical needs. Something this fundamental cant even be solved, and you are lobbying for it to address the spiritual needs of the masses? A bit of a laugh aint it? A fundamental criteria of what you call 'pure spirituality' (whatever that means-care to explain?) is delving into the unknown in order to release potential, hence it can never be 'verifiable', its apparently an on-going process, sifting, sifting, sifting... - that which is known is not the true Tao, remember? What you label as Pure Spirituality is based on the premise of finding comfort in the 'known', which totally resides in the realm of science, and surely cannot have anything to do with Spirituality. If there is such a box as Pure Spirituality, i'd say its meant for the brave, the spiritual warrior, to open, for what lies within is usually full of surprises. Perhaps this is the reason traditions are vital - it lays the groundwork for the development of courage to step out into the Unknowable. Maybe you ought to also say what you mean by Unconditional Compassion? What exactly is it, and from which science did you learn this? Lastly, what is your scientific prescription for negotiating pain? Might be good to know. Some 'clarity' here will be helpful, yes?

Right mindfulness is key. Without it, creating the right causes for liberation is almost impossible, unless one is born already on the brink of high realization. Thanks Xabir.

Its also the only philosophy that does not promote extremism, encourages kindness and compassion, and to do no harm if kindness and compassion is beyond one's reach momentarily. If Buddhism did 'create' anything significant, it would have to be the wisdom that leads to the complete and utter dissolution of the illusion that one is bound in greater or lesser ways by the 'fetters of mind'. Having this as a basis for contemplation, i would disagree that Buddhists view life as 'glass half empty' - more to the contrary, i'd wager. But i guess with your mindset, you'd probably take this lead and say that Buddhists are a contrary bunch anyways.... You know what Tzu... you win. There is no penetrating that clear mind of yours. You truly exemplify the non-bending straight line that Stig put up in one of his posts. If you ask me, i'd say you're a GAS man (Irish slang for a funny guy btw). You be well as well...