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May I request a presentation of a contrasting view according to the position you have taken? I think it'd make for an informed comparison so that readers can (perhaps) relate to your writings a little more intimately. Also, when you have time, it'd be interesting to get more context regarding the inferred shock associated with the *link mentioned. When you wrote that, what exactly were you reflecting upon? Just reading the quoted text above i was unable to grasp the flow and connect the dots in a satisfactory way, but im sure its there in plain sight. My own lack of depth, not yours. Thanks, Apech. Excellent thread

What is believed to be the first ever Cc heist occurred in the UK couple of days ago http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/28/britains-first-bitcoin-heist-trader-forced-gunpoint-transfer/

"Subhuti, do not maintain that the Buddha has this thought: ‘I have spoken spiritual truths.’ Do not think that way. Why? If someone says the Buddha has spoken spiritual truths, he slanders the Buddha due to his inability to understand what the Buddha teaches. Subhuti, as to speaking truth, no truth can be spoken. Therefore it is called ‘speaking truth’.” Subhuti again asked, “Blessed lord, when you attained complete Enlightenment, did you feel in your mind that nothing had been acquired?” “That is it exactly, Subhuti. When I attained total Enlightenment, I did not feel, as the mind feels, any arbitrary conception of spiritual truth, not even the slightest. Even the words ‘total Enlightenment’ are merely words, they are used merely as a figure of speech.” ~ from the Diamond Sutra ~

Republican money-man Steve Wynn, Trump's good buddy, resigns amid wave of allegations of sexual harassment & abuse. Apparently he's been flinging $1000 tips to various women workers at his resort(s) in return for sexual favours. Ouch! I wonder if the RNC will put their money where the mouth is and return all the 'donations', just as the RNC chairwoman uttered that its a no-brainer that the Dems should refund all the money taken from Weinstein after his beastly conduct was made public. I am envisaging a revival of Martika's Toy Soldiers

I think if one wants to embrace the Buddhist path seriously, it is fairly important to get a good understanding of the basic concept of karma first, and then one will be free of the thinking that somehow karma is like an iron ball and chain around our ankle.

It might be more interesting to delve deeper into possible emic contaminations, if any, and any behavioural data of the early Mahayanists. Some scholars argue that it is not appropriate (for euro-centric minds) to view splits in Eastern religious reform movements that involved the production of new texts with the same lens as when one probes Christian reformation. In the context of any significant Christian reforms, schisms were the norm, but some Eastern scholars say this assumption does not apply in India generally. As one scholar noted, "Buddhist India was far more pluralistic than Christian Europe". Whats worthy of consideration is also the theory put forth by some quarters that Mahayana grew gradually and without conflict along the institutionalised framework of mainstream Buddhism (i assume by mainstream what that signifies is the predominant movement of that period) - the eventual divergence was more as a result of mainstream Buddhism offering up resistance to the emergence of what they deemed to be internal sects forming, whereby the aim, according to the mainstream elders, was to direct effort at reworking existing sutras. This was of course met with some strong, biased resistance from those same elders at that time.

"SO, YOU WANT TO BE A TANTRIC WIZARD, HUH??" https://perfumedskull.com/2016/01/22/tobeatantricwizard/

Excellent input, Apeiron&Peiron! Thanks.

Found another link that might interest this thread's 'burgeoning' no. of participants lol https://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/index.php/jiabs/article/viewFile/8709/2616

This range is of significance to Christian mystics and new age folks. Huge deposits of quartz covering large portions of the land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Bens Magnificent Kylemore Abbey built in the same vicinity https://www.kylemoreabbey.com/about-kylemore/ A fav retreat spot of mine in Ireland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allihies

Im not too bothered as long as the central tenets are by and large consistent among all the authentic schools. One of the Dzogchen books i was reading just last night mentioned the importance of insight into the 4 truths. Btw, I share Steve's sentiments - thanks Apech! Wonderful thread.

"San" has a few meanings.. Mountain Deity Three Scatter

Grief has a mysterious energy that clarifies in such ways that without it who could imagine darkness contains this many shades ~ and layers within layers. Before that burden who can know pain wills such depths of awareness. Have we ever heard the path to freedom to be stainless of despair? If it was who would want to be free?

Maybe surf among the papers done by Paul Williams, David Drewes and Paul Harrison into Early Indian Mahayana Buddhism to get a more complete pic. Have you read this article before? https://www.buddhistdoor.net/features/the-origin-of-mahayana link to some of Drewes' research.. http://umanitoba.academia.edu/DavidDrewes

Maybe

http://www.academia.edu/12854001/Who_Composed_the_Mahāyāna_Scriptures_The_Mahāsāṃghikas_and_Vaitulya_Scriptures

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Happy to see Manitou gradually engaging with the thread again

The rationale behind the variety of teachings and paths indicates & acknowledges the evolving sophistication of wide-ranging mental capacities, with different progressive cultures requiring adaptations to be made - to facilitate this, the way the Dharma was presented were made more palatable to suit local customs and traditions (mental diets), taking care not to completely discount the main staple. Much like how parents devise novel ways to liven up a toddler's feed time.

If forgiveness works the way it is claimed to work as a process to remove defects, one would assume there ought to be clear indications of western cultures that are quite contented and free of mental anguish and destructive habits, but in all honesty, this is not the case. An honest evaluation reveals overwhelming repression and deeply ingrained guilt and anger. It is hard to imagine that these destructive emotions will release thru the practice of forgiveness. Yet, it is understandable why this concept is crucial to the Western mindset - without it what other workable alternative is there to bring forth closure for all the wrongs and the hurts. Buddhist practice is quite radical. It takes courage, perseverance and patience to allow karmic knots to disentangle by their own momentum, and they will, due to the infallible principle of impermanence. We learn to interfere less and less in trying to hasten the process thru various meditative practices, while other systems might promote different methods that is completely opposite of this. That is ok - we cannot say which is right and what is wrong. People are free to work with methods that align with their own understanding and needs. The beauty of learning to deepen meditation is that when one gets used to non-interference, what follows is a kind of natural peace and inner okayness that at the same time also frees up one's intrinsic clarity and awareness. Then we get to equanimous poise quite effortlessly. At that point, other enlightened qualities like loving kindness and compassion will flow unhindered. We dont need to forgive others, nor seek to be forgiven, where, with clarity, we begin to recognise the one true buddha nature in all beings. Something i thought up recently - It is beauty that looks thru us and sees itself.

One of my fav alt congee, common in Malaysian Chinese households -

Partially agree

Aah, this is another point thats totally valid, imo. You said: "The question of 'forgiveness' does not arise", whereby I'd respond further by saying, "because one has resolved all separation and attained/realised wholeness". Is it necessary to practice forgiveness then in order to reach this realisation, or is it attained by applying some other methods that are more conducive to reducing dualistic mentations? For example, reflection, contemplation and meditation, as I have already mentioned in a previous post yesterday.

At the point where you completely resolve all doubts that every other being share the same fundamental longings as everyone else, what ought to arise then is a realisation of profound equanimity, so profound that it transcends all divisions and differentiations in all their forms. Where sameness is, there is no need to practice forgiveness. Only where high and low prevails does charitable positions take form. You brought up a great point about being positionless - we should reflect on this seriously and inquire what it really implies, and then ask how one without a position exercise forgiveness. Imo, one free of position is free from the influence of both negative and positive even though immersed in a relative world that operates and are bound in within those two limits. Another thing to bear in mind in relation to Buddhism is that there are acknowledgments of misdeeds but not of doership. In the absence of a doer, actions based on attitudes like forgiveness is moot.

Thank you for the rare visit, Dwai. You're welcome anytime. I have also ruminated on the subject of forgiveness many times, both in theory and in the observation of the dynamic flow of human interactions. It seems to me that it is a habit where discrimination, and even judgement, as a premise, seems unavoidable. Would forgiveness have meaning in the absence of some form of discrimination? In forgiveness, there is right and wrong, subject and object. In kindness, mercy and compassion, there is no such consideration. In my opinion, this is where the apparent difference lies. It does not make sense to develop a pervasively forgiving attitude - it might even be somewhat disempowering if circumstances are made more complex by the presence of other powerful emotional states, and this could easily reinforce resentment and drive greater confusion. On the other hand, loving kindness, mercy and compassion are predicated on empathy - with compassion comes a deep understanding that all beings have the same aspirations - everyone wishes to be free of unhappiness, and everyone is in their own boat on this vast river attempting to make their own way across. If someone have less ability to safely manoeuvre their craft, and knocks into yours, I suppose one who practices forgiveness and another who cultivates loving kindness would respond differently. That kind of sums up the point I am wanting to make.