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This might be one approach which brings a desired result, but essentially we were taught that the mind is not made up of two aspects, ie an empty aspect, and a cognizant aspect. It is both at once. And these two aspects are always in harmonious union. Hence our practice (or training) is to gradually become stable in the periodic glimpses of this harmonious union rather than attend to the contents that emanate from it, like for example, noise, labels, and basically all kinds of sensate perceptions arising out of this self-perfected nature (meaning, primordially pure -- whatever we add to it cannot make it more pure, and whatever we remove cannot make it less perfect). Im not saying to disregard relative issues pertaining to one's well-beingness, but to actually develop a new mode or habit of seeing how noise and clouds, traumas and contractions are not separate from us, but because their innate nature is one of constant flux (meditation helps to realize this), we try to connect and conduct the self with/from that aspect of Mind that is ever stable and unchanging. There are many names for this aspect of Mind... but names are good only for the expressed purpose of understanding the expedient nature of relative existence. On the ultimate side of this same existence, the space is already constantly in brightness, so when we have matured the practice enough to peep in and see this natural brightness (which im sure many here have already got glimpses of it before), as not something separate, or existing apart from us, then we can relax and cease attempting to find torches to shine the way in our quest for stillness. Then we will gradually come to understand the immanent truth that any movement at all towards stillness arise from nowhere but from the very stillness we are attempting to access. As a result, what may happen is that eventually we will realize that the quest, the path, the journey, the pauses, the heartaches, the elations, the highs and the lows, these are all mind-made (or rather, ego-made) stories that keeps us suspended in a sense of separation and perpetually distracts us from recognising our true nature. When we eventually see through the illusion of disjointedness of these various illusory segments that we think constitutes the evolution of spirit, what takes place then?

Well, now you know him even more, i guess. Good stuff.

Im not responsible for your own shortcomings and how you choose to employ same to interpret my presence on this thread. The matter of the 'work' was not brought up because, borrowing your tag line, the basis for it is older than my nana's teapot. I have read all I need to, and have some sense of what this 'work' is about. If you are in denial of this, its not my problem, but an implied failure on the part of your communications oracle (Jeff, in the main) to ensure that representations are made clearly and concisely so that we 'the nay sayers' could at least not have to resort to subjective interpretations of said 'work'. Since this is one of the points that is causing you grief, and which you have attempted to make me responsible for (btw i graciously decline the good intentions), maybe then the real issue is quite apparent, but, temporarily clouded by your own emotions, have failed to 'connect the dots' (again, borrowing your words).

So now you have even opted to insult my comprehension skills, saying that despite so much info about your 'work' being made available (quote: Jonesboy -- "have thread after thread providing answers to questions."), that i'm still ignorant, and my responses are therefore based off this ignorance. This to me sounds rather strange because it implies the ineffectiveness of the people who have been attempting the communicative aspect of your 'work'. (Not yours, per se, but the group's). So the failure for effective communication, which has impacted on subsequent ignorant responses, have now somehow come to be my responsibility? Come on, stop pulling my leg please.

Patience is a very useful tool for mastery over the fleeting nature of sensate realities.

In our tradition, we were taught to consider why its not very helpful to strengthen the habit of wanting to analyse perceived blockages, obstacles, etc, those things that we deem to be preventing us from progress. Main reasons being, that by fuelling that habit, it may happen that small obstacles, instead of exhausting their own volitional thrust and burn themselves off eventually, may actually gather more fuel and become more energetic with sustained focus, and secondly, because cause and effect is such a complex web, it is said that heads can sometimes explode from frustration and exasperation at failing to locate the root. And really, finding said roots may seem logical and vital, but again, in my tradition, we are reminded to instead invest the energy in cultivating a deeper understanding of what the mind really is, and how, when its empty, cognizant nature is finally understood, all the roots will naturally sever with no traces left behind.

Well, im sorry your peace has been disturbed by your own lack of ability to remain calm. My colours are always true since my views in relation to what your group does will always be consistent, but I have no problems with maintaining mutual respect with members of the group unless such respect is of course unwelcome, which seems to be the case here. You may want to correct me on this, and will be given time to reflect before the contents will be reported for mod's consideration.

If you only knew how clued in people are, despite your lack of faith, it might actually restore some of that lost shine, and maybe help you to understand why it is important, as one who has the intention to help, never to undermine another person's experiences, no matter how these may seem to be counter to your cause or belief. Of course, if your basic belief is not one of helping but of something other than, then by all means, continue with your emotional outbursts. No one can deny you that. You think all presumed detractors are 'them' and then there's 'our group' and 'our teachings'. This is a fundamental flaw, something which may not be apparent to you now, but perhaps someday you will learn how to rise above mundane dualistic views and cultivate more equanimity to further strengthen your desire to be of real, genuine service for the good of sentient beings.

Sound post.

Of course, nothing prevents me from changing my mind, so don't be gleefully clapping your hands prematurely.

Im tempted to offer a rebuttal, but to avoid the messiness that usually results from such baseless, emotional (almost insulting) outcries, I'll simply let it go. For the peace of the community... oh yeah, and self-respect, naturally.

Are you now trying to teach me how to read posts, sir? Details are only as important as their helpfulness. But some would rather use them to confuse and subjugate. Im not interested in sordid details, but the very real, on-going issue a member has after having crossed paths with Jeff/LU, and what kind of support is in place to alleviate the fear of future participants, as well as Bindi. If I were you, I'd be very careful in the consideration of a tit-for-tat with Bindi. You have already indicated your intention to do so, but hopefully can resist the emotional calling for it.

Bindi, Thank you for sharing crucial and intimate details of your exchanges with Jeff -- regardless of comebacks, i see these as extremely valid for you, and no one can/or should even try to diminish this validity, and in the process attempt to consolidate their stance by disempowering your experiences.

Confusion tends to subside when the need to label sensations is diminished. Some meditation practices encourage noting sensations without giving in to the habitual tendency of assigning labels to these sensations. For example, the metaphorical box we have that contains all the associate terms for pain/pleasure becomes the focus for increasing awareness, rather than allowing the possibility for distractions caused by the habitual need to make sense of the contents within. Imo, as always.

I could be a friend too, and suggest maybe that the priority ought to be Admin first, and friend second... But its up to you, of course, how to conduct yourself on this forum. You seem generally fair and unbiased, so hopefully this will be an exercise to strengthen public perception in those regards.

1/ With minimal engagement there's already complications. 2/ Periodic support only when asked. Attitude towards those with issues... They are suffering! 3/ After 100s of pms, still no clarity. Says alot. To me, anyhow

But you did advise Bindi to let the past go, yes? All the same, your clarification is appreciated, albeit not sufficiently neutral, imo.

This is why one must exercise all cautionary reasonings before signing up for any 'spiritual' invites. The rebounds are limitless, some good, some neutral and some can fill the participant with confusion and anxiety. A good facilitator will have openly put in place all the necessary safety rails and should be able to demonstrate impeccable integrity towards ensuring the safety of all-comers, even those who express doubts. Especially those who express doubts, actually, rather than finding labels (anti-movement... really??) for such.

Shouldn't you as Admin adopt an impartial position on this? I find your response to Bindi a little perplexing, but maybe its just oversight on my part. Personally, and just for the sake of perspective, if I were to be Admin, I dont believe it will be in the best interest of the members (all members, notwithstanding) for me to argue the concerns of members' very personal experiences with what appears to be a for/against approach. Its no secret that you work with this group, and that's absolutely fine, and your prerogative, but to openly offer your subjective review on Bindi's experience of LU which to me seems rather biased is whats really unfair (your choice of wording, of course). The reason I am pursuing this is not because I am anti- anyone or any practices. Let me state for the record that I am not on anyone's side on this, and have not had (nor have an ongoing) private communication with Bindi wrt her past involvement with Jeff nor her current feelings of her past experiences. I am pursuing this solely because I believe Jeff, although (perhaps) sincere, and convincing to some, do not possess sufficient cred, he has no affiliation with any lineage or tradition, and the most primary concern is of course the anonymity -- this indicates that should any member of DB were to experience negative repercussion from attempting the practice(s), there will be no accountability at all, just as there was no appropriate accountability and support given to Bindi, or else she couldn't have made the decision to voice her on-going concerns the way she did. It is a simple consideration for anyone who is thinking of getting involved, or are already involved, not just with LU but with all future on-line, anonymous 'systems' that invites participation - these are not invitations to cooking lessons, mind you -- just to bear in mind and apply lots of common sense to the questions: What if it starts to get complicated and difficult? What if the dynamic takes on shades that i have no idea about, and have no other support network to seek clarification and compare notes, other than whats responsible for the change in dynamic? What if Jeff suddenly vanishes and one is in the midst of a critical phase in the practice? Many considerations, which I hope people will at least ponder over. As with any path or spiritual practice, personal safety is the main priority, more so when potential hazards are not restricted to the physical realm.

It can develop into a big deal. Not all who choose to dabble have sufficient spiritual miles in them, for example, the kind of maturity level like Dwai has is commendable -- there is no worries of him ever getting 'sick' from interacting with what you call 'the practices' since its obvious he is able to discern and work with his understandings systematically, something which must have taken years to develop. I dont know these practices of yours well enough to evaluate them critically, nor have such an inclination, but the little i have read tells me a newbie can get into difficulty should he or she decides to take the plunge. If a seasoned 'pro' like our Mr Nungali struggles to find coherency, imagine newer, less exposed members who enthusiastically decides to taste the sharing.

Yes, there is definitely a sense of some kind of recruitment drive happening here on TDB alright. A bit silly, considering the unavoidable online anonymity, and potential dangers that can arise from that. Can easily amplify unstable mindsets.

For heavens sake, where did I indicate such covert (even creepy) behaviour? And what private group? I have no need for faceless bondings with anyone.

some of us must be so long in the tooth that we no longer possess jaw-dropping capabilities (since the jaw is perpetually jarred open by the long tooth) at some of the 'answers' you have given in the past -- maybe thats why no light bulb moments occurred. Nungali might have the right tool to file the overgrown fang. Nungali?

Yup. I had a vision of you extending an invite to the new member to taste your idea of light. But it has not happened yet. Not as consistent as i imagined you to be, Jeff. Its a good thing though