thuscomeone

Good post. Morality, good and bad are completely arbitrary/relative. Karma sounds to me like an absolutist sense of morality. "This" is good absolutely. "That" is bad absolutely. I just don't think life is that black and white.

"clearing up" was clearing up what I have learned myself so far and then sharing it with others

Well yes, if all is empty (as it is) there cannot possibly be brahman. For brahman is eternal and is self, truly existent. If all is empty then reifying anything eternal such as brahman (or, of course, reifying nihilism) is an error. So this awareness is empty, ungraspable, not existent, non existent, both or neither.

Yes the difference between subject object non duality stage 4 and 5 is that 5 is no subject as in the absence of doer? Just happening, manifesting. And this awareness we are speaking of is empty/non inherently existent because it is dependently originated and impermanent phenomena. And this factor of it's emptiness seems to be the main difference between Buddhism and other traditions that teach about awareness

my view is not that there is a transcendent consciousness apart from phenomena. I'm simply saying what you have been saying. Wherever there is phenomena, there must be awareness. They are inseparable. So it is not transcendent. It is phenomena themselves. This is why I said that this awareness had to be present before me or you or human beings came to be. It has to be present for there to be phenomena to begin with. That's what I'm saying. That is the logical outcome of saying that "phenomena are awareness."

Yes "ordinary" consciousness and matter are both mutually dependent. But the root of what I'm getting at here is that without "awareness" which is different than both of them yet seems to underlie them, neither of them could be...?

Well mainly zen folks but I've heard others too...

I've got it! The universe/phenomena/reality/"what is" cannot logically "be" without awareness. It is impossible! One way I used to gain certainty in this awareness is to look at it this way: there had to be a universe before I was born, otherwise how would I have been born? And there had to be a universe before human beings came into existence. And form/shape is inseparable from seeing, sound is inseparable from hearing, smells are inseparable from smelling. Thus before I or human beings ever were, there had to be this awareness which IS phenomena, without which there cannot be a universe. It's so logical! I've never understood why some people say that Buddhist realization is mystical, outside logic or transcends logic. It's the most logical thing there is!

I sense that something is about to burst in my understanding here...but I...just...can't...break...through... It's like it is right on the tip of my tongue. Ok wait, there cannot be sound without hearing. And there cannot be hearing without sound. Wherever there is form, there must be seeing, etc. But I think I've realized the problem here. It is not an "I" that sees. It is not my consciousness that hears. For if hearing and sound were inseperable, then when I plug my ears, there are no more sounds in the universe. It starts to seem like all is in my mind - solipsism. Rather awareness being inseparable from phenomena is a natural condition for there to be anything at all in the universe to begin with. Thus there is not even "awareness" and "phenomena" as two rather there is just impermanent and dependently originated manifestation/happening which is awareness/phenomena inseperablitiy. I just need to get out of this solipsistic position, the my position, which is proving to be difficult at the moment...

alright Xabir, I think I may have gotten this non duality thing down. Ok, so we can say that all there really is is this flow. And consciousness/awareness is just another part of the flow (?). It is just another happening or manifestation of this flow. In this sense, awareness and phenomena are not seperate. As everything, awareness and phenomena, is just the flow there can be no separation between observer and observed. They are both the same flow that is all there is. I don't really know how to address what I'm trying to get across accurately. It seems hard to express it... But that also couldn't mean that there is no distinction or obvious diversity/difference of awareness and phenomena. Just that they are inseparable in the sense that they are part of the same process/flow...

Constants was not the right word to use here. I shouldn't have used it. What I meant by something that truly exists has to be constant is that it has to have a stable/fixed identity or essence. So it essentially has to be unchanging aka constant. See Xabir, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Do you mean consciousness and the tree are both empty? Is that the "suchness" you describe?

Hello there. I will be posting a long message very very soon in the taoist discussion forum. So if you wish, you can chat with me there. For now, hello everyone!

yes I'll certainly be back at some point tomorrow. Right now, it's sleep time.