thuscomeone

I'm still not sure if you understand. d.o. IS a concept. A concept which points to something beyond concepts. Concepts can only point. I have done that. I went through all of them, wrote them down and made sure to point out how they all eradicate duality, bit by it. But there is more duality to be eradicated. And I'm not sure if you're aware of it.

d.o. is a step along the way. It's not important now. When your hand moves, not when "you" move your hand, is that emptiness is form?

Nope, not it. I've been through all that. It's just a pointer. This is different. Forget "maha", forget "d.o." forget all that. You can't take them here. Just look! In the whole universe, only one is manifesting itself. What is it if not you?

I think heartmind is just you as you are as a human being. Your five skandhas functioning and happening without all the dust (concepts) to obscure this simple happening. But that's just a guess.

Eh, not sure you know what I mean by non-conceptual. I understand d.o. D.O. has lead me to a place where d.o. doesn't apply. It sounds like you're still stuck on certain experiences. This isn't a certain non-conceptual experience. It's seeing what is happening now and that concepts don't fit that happening. You have to stop conceptualizing and see how conceptualizing itself ties into rebirth. "Emptiness is form" is talking about YOU, xabir. Seeing, smelling, hearing, moving your hands, walking. Drop the talking about certain experiences and just Look at YOURSELF. What else do you think it's pointing to? sheesh.

Living, functioning, discrimination, pointing out that which is beyond words.

Xabir, you don't have to take my advice here. But if you do, you should go back and read your blog post about views, as I'm not sure you fully understand its implications yet. That is because you don't fully understand "emptiness is form." Or what emptiness is form is pointing to. You're still caught in a very subtle dualism, dividing emptiness from emptiness. I'm not talking about rebirth or any sort of thing like that. You're starting from concepts, and until you see beyond them, you will go no further. If you want to talk Dogen, you should focus on the 4th line of the Genjokoan. The first three lines are conceptual. The fourth is beyond concepts. You're stuck at the third line.

They are tools. Nothing more.

No. The arising of memory is just the arising of memory. Not "the arising of memory." Remembering yesterday, thinking about today. Switching off the lamp next to the bed. Emptiness is form.

No. Rebirth doesn't matter. Nor does non-rebirth. There is no awareness, no rebirth, no wind. There is just hearing the bird, now. Not "hearing the bird, now." "Rebirth" is dead, "awareness" is dead, "wind" is dead. Typing fingers --emptiness is form. Minister Rikuko talked with Nansen. Rikuko said, "Dharma-teacher Jo said, 'Heaven and earth and I have one and the same root; all things and I are one single body.' How wonderful this is!" Nansen pointed at the flowers in the garden, called to Rikuko and said, "People of our time see these flowers as in a dream."

No, "rebirth" is not a verb. Snapping your fingers, eating a sandwich, taking a piss -- verbs.

who is experiencing? No "experiencing." The hand moves, the eyes see. Emptiness is form.

I am not commited to the view at all. I'm just attempting to point to something.

I would say that true seeing of "emptiness is form" is what really ends all views. If you see emptiness is form as a verb, not a noun, views are finished. There is one thing that is free from views. It is not empty, relative, ultimate, karma, rebirth, no-rebirth. What is it other than you -- typing, thinking, seeing?

Nope. It simply can't be captured in a view. It's just like the eye trying to see itself. That doesn't mean that views don't still "happen." Even in this view it can't be captured. But views can point. To that which is beyond views. That is you. Not "you."

Wait a minute. You just talked before about ending views via madhyamaka. Now you propose a view. I don't think you see it yet. "This" is a verb, not a noun (concept). All views -- rebirth, non-birth -- are just something extra. They are not the actual.

Good to know. Can't say I haven't learned a lot from him myself. It's just that words can only take you so far.

Namdrol's an insightful guy, but if he really had realized what he was talking about in that quote, he wouldn't be so dogmatic in his views or adamant to tell people they are wrong. For example, he clings tightly to his view of rebirth and criticizes anyone who doesn't believe it. If he really knew, he wouldn't have a notion of rebirth or non-rebirth. The word is not the actuality.

Don't worry, I don't want to debate

Yes, between the two views is the place to be. Transcending ALL views and concepts (self, no self, emptiness, form) by realizing that what you are is prior to them -- emptiness as form.

One day while Pai-chang was still Ma-tsu's student the two were out walking together and saw in the sky a formation of wild ducks. Ma-tsu asked, "What is that?" Pai-chang said, "Wild ducks." Ma-tsu said, "Where have they gone?" Pai-chang replied, "They have flown away." Ma-tsu then twisted Pai-chang's nose, of from which Pai-chang cried out in pain. Ma-tsu said, "When have they ever flown away, they have been here since the beginning."

We all do. And we all need a break from the computer as well.

Ok. Be ready

Uh-uh. Since mind is dependently arisen, it is not a real thing. But it is not a non-thing either. As I've repeated more times than I can count. The best word to use for mind is "unborn." Since it has never been born (truly existed), it can never cease. When emptiness is talked about as having power to manifest, it is because emptiness is lack of inherent existence. Because of this lack of inherent existence, anything can happen. Proposing a self-existent mind negates any possibility for manifestation. But as I said to Lucky, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I think this debate has gone on too long and has taken up too much of my time and energy. Thank you for the discussion By the way, Deci Belle, thank you for the compliment