sheng zhen

And here is a littlebit of what Taoist Yoga-book, an irritatingly chaotic and confusing book that still is too intriguing to put away, say about K'an and Li. page 57 page 59 ...whatever that means

Yes, of course But still, for the majority of cultivators this is not a reality. Statistically the chance of one of us being a genious to the level of buddha, Chang san-feng or the like, is close to zero. Most people, which statistically would be like saying all people, will have more luck getting a good techer. I dont see any difference between cultivation or any other art. You can learn to play the piano by spontanously hit it with your hands. Or you can get a little further by whatching and instructional video on youtbe. And you can go even further with time and practice. But with a teacher your skill will really flourish! Cultivation is no differnent.

But how many people with outstanding results in their cultivation have not had any teachers other than their own connection to the divine? In theory it is possible, but not in reality. The divine will sooner or later guide the individual to the perfect teacher.

YES!!! Ive seen this! Its scary! The sweeds are silently occupying the norwegian country by taking control over what we love the most; beer and food!!! Im guess they are still emotionally hurt for all the jokes we have made about them over the years

Yes a teacher is needed. You could ask yourself if someone can become a scientist without going to school? You can fool around with newspaperarticles and believe that you know a lot, but you wont get anywhere with your science-projects without many years of difficult study at the university. Same with cultivation. You can fool around with youtube and books, but the real development comes when you have a good teacher. A lot of people will probably say that all you need is the divine and the inner guru. That is true, but the inner guru will eventually guide you to a teacher because that is the only way real cultivation can happen. I fool around with youtube and books as a hobby, not as my real cultivation

I got some sort of addiction to Zhan Zhuang in the beginning. It reloaded my energy very quickly, but then I just as quickly lost the energy aswell. I could feel it dissipate within the hour after my practice. And I got less energy than before. So I felt I had to do lots of 5minute ZZ's all the time during the day to reload. I had to go a lot to the toilet to do while it at work. Ive been addicted to things before so I've learned to recognize it and manage to get out of it So I started doing proper ending to integrate and internalize the accumulated energy, and disipline myself to do it only once a day and in longer session. If the energy does not last all day and build you up to greater health and awakefullness, then you are doing something wrong in your practice. I see in the Way of Energy book they recommend doing it at work, sitting waiting for the bus, reading, and everywhere. I would say that really boosts the addictivity is not something I would recommend.

One more for my Kan and Li rampage. This is from the Shaolin Wanham forum: I guess this is about the REAL Kan and Li process that Varjasattva mentioned.

To me this is very simple. I used to like Procurator too, and thought he had some kind of authentic taoist experience. But what is shown here is a man with a very fixed mind that judges individuals based on generalized and fixed concepts. Something must have been very wrong with his cultivation. How can you be in union with the tao, that is changing and rearranging every moment, when your mind is fixed on generalized concepts??? I have lost my respect for Procurators opinions. He should take his medication or atlest do his meditation properly.

Thanks a lot YMWong! I know! Mind can be dangerous. Or if not dangerous, very misleading

Geee... ... ...but geee....

Vajrasattva, would you be so kind to explain what is the real Kan and Li?? That is exactly what Im trying to confirm with my research here...what the real Kan and Li really is.

hahaha Suddenly you sound just like my girlfriend! A pms is on the way!

wudangquan, maby you want to say a little about how you Kan and Li from your practice? Was it Quanzhen your where doing?

aha, that might be!! Xian Tian... I dont know. But from what you describe it sounds like what Im looking for, yes. Thanks Little1 So if I understand this correctly, there is a Xian Tian and Huo Tian part of Kan and Li? Where the Huo Tian part is visualization or breathing or whatever method, and the Xian Tian part is the actual process?

Li Jiong allways refers to his teacher, called Seawater. I cant see this site mention him. He has a lot of chinese text out on his forum and he even asked for someone to translate them. Maby you can talk to him about that, wudanquan?

That would be great Trunk! Hope you can do that I also want to add that the pearl that appears from breathing and keeping the attention fixed in the Dan Tien, is a completely different pearl than the one I create with visualization. I see why they call it a pearl, or a spark, a small ball of heat, it looks and feels like it. But that dosent mean we get the same result from visualizing it. Conscious knowledge is not the same as real knowledge, like Trunk said. Unless you are so good at this that what you visualize is what happens. But then again, that would suggest you have allready gone through the union of Kan and Li, so your mind and breath operates as one. That kind of visualization wont compare to the visualization normal people do because it is not visualization, it is real life action...

I dont think this is the same Kostas... Here is the real one, with gray hair: http://www.pammachon.gr/old/pammachon_eng.htm

Yes, me too! I used to do Zhan Zhuang for years, but never enough to really understand it. Only enough to enchance the chigong I was doing at the time. Then I had about 6 years break before I took it up again 5 months ago. I do it very differently now. Its a practice of its own. There are so many details of posture that Im discovering and constantly correcting, so many muscles and anatomy stuff to discover and connect to, so many energetic things happening, and so many wonderful feelings. Its looks so simple, just standing, but in reality it is anything but simple. I discover new depths to it every day.

Ken Cohens Kan and Li too... its all about just visualizalizing water in the stomach being vaporized by fire from the heart. He even say this visualization can change the actual structure of the bones, prevent osteporosis and strengthen the imunesystem. Strengthen the immunesystem thats ok, any meditation does that. But change the actual structure of the bones??? ...I would like to see that happen to someone visualizing this... Ken Cohen seem to be such a great guy. Someone mentioned he was even an ordained daoist priest. Why does he present Kan and Li as a simple visualization? Did the ancient taoist immortals really visualize water from the stomach being vaporized from fire in heart and off they went through the Kan and Li process?? I just cant believe it...there seem to be something fundamentally wrong here...

Thanks Little1. But I think you are exposed now. This wisdom could never have come from someone in kindergarden Yes, his system looks very westernized on the surface. But I'm a sceptic about what is underneath the surface too. Wish you could say more about how these question led you to trouble though I understand how the basics feel good. I do my stillness meditation every day. The first meditation I learned and did several years before I started reclessly experimenting with all other kinds of meditations. Like all kinds of visualizations and energywork. Now Im back to just regular breathing and stillness, and that seems to work a whole lot better for my life and evolution than all the visualizations I have done over the years. Ok, so back to Kan and Li. From what I can gather it is a natural effect of the mind uniting with the breath in stillness. And this naturally generates energy in the Dan Tien to circulate in MCO. Without any visualization or mind doing any directing and controlling. The the few moments Ive had some experiences that I can relate to this is so different from what I have visualized that I'm loosing all faith in visualization(with any or all senses) or any mind-creations. When I feel the energy move and I follow it with my mind it dissipates and I loose it. So I put more and more faith into just stillness and natural development.