sheng zhen

In my school we were drilled to be synetetics. We had to work on getting every impulse from one sense over into another sense. Smell colours, listen to taste, touch taste, etc. And move everything around at will. Eating food at a good resturant can be better than a philharmonic concert! And a burger at mcDonalds better than any thrash metal concert. This crosswiring of senses makes the mind very lucid and flexible, and it gives you a whole army of tools to use when you work with subtle energies and visualization. If you have a hard time cathing a feeling, try it with sound of with smell a things will open up. Also, if you use all of these senses in visualization, it will be a thousand times more effective. But, visualizarion will never be able to replace the real thing. So like the first post intended, dont get stuck on visualizations.

The way I understand it, what exorcist is talking about isnt what kind of sensory type you are, it is beyond that. Think of it this way. Visualize lifting your hand. Do it many times. Then lift your hand in real life. It feels completely different and you dont use visualization at all. It is the same way with spiritual things. Once you get it, it feels completely different and you throw away the visualization and just do it. So if you are stuck with the visualisation, believing it is the visualisation in it self that does the moving, you will never be able to lift your hand. You can visualize an aura around people, but once you see the real thing it is completely different than what you have visualized. If you are stuck with visulization believing it is the real thing, you will never see the beauty(or uglyness) of the real aura. Visualization is only a tool to help you open yourself to the possibility. It is not the real thing. But it is helpful to guide our brain to accept the real thing.

According to Ken Wilbers theory people can generally be divided into three groups of developement: prepersonal, personal and transpersonal. I find this view very helpful when it comes to understanding different aspects of a discussion. And its fun to see the dynamics between them. For the prepersonal faith would be blind faith because this is what the group or religion demands. They are the religious majority. This includes faith in science. For the personal faith is replaced with doubt, and any kind of faith would even be laughed away as childish or foolish. These are the sceptics. For the transpersonal faith would be based on direct experience with what they have faith in, if it is God, the Dao, etc. These are the mystics. Its interesting to see these three personalities discussing what faith means in seandentys introductory post. The transpersonal will never come through with his message because it demans to much experience to really understand what he talkes about. The prepersonal might believe him and just take his word for it, but the personal will look at it as just another prepersonal kind of faith. The personal will never get through with his message because faith is true to both prepersonal and transpersonal anyways. And the personal will never get through with his messange to anyone outside of his group or religion.

I agree with you Chanwu, the astral body is no something that need to be grown. Its there and its a natural part of us all. It is something everybody experiences without ever learning anything about it. It is not something special that only certain people are blessed enough to experence and know of. Take as an example if you experience an accident. Im shure many people here have experienced these things. During the accident you feel time slows down, you get warm, totally calm, and you see the situation from outside of yourself. This is a glimpse of the true astral body. It is not somehting you have to create or develop, it was there even before you got your pysical body. It is not something vague or cloudy either, when you are there the world seems crystal clear, a lot more clear than when you are in your normal state. But the mind can easily create an image of the astral body and mimic its function. We can have pretty much the same experiences, but still not the true experiences. There are thousands of visualization techniques to make the mind believe it is doing astral travel. So I believe we should be aware, and totally honest, of what is our minds creation, and what is true experience of something beyond the mind. And, Id like to add, using the mind too much CAN be a hinderance to experencing the real thing.

Will a forum ever grow up? Ther will be new people coming in, old people dropping out, same discussions over and over, same questions and comments asked by new people over and over, and the people who has discussed them many times before wont even bother to interrupt. I dont know. Ive not been long with thetaobums, so maby you have grown as a forum over the years?

This guy could be a class example of someone with a complete lack of ethics.

Still only in Norwegian... Still Point

Is this the guy? Wang Liping And isnt this your friend Dao Zhen? Looks like he has lots of humor Dao Zhens friend

Its called Still Point and is about aligning the differnt consciousness layers and getting the energysystems, chakras, auras, organenergies, etc, to their still point. We recognize the ability to be still as fundamental to any developement and healing.

This is a very difficult question because feeling pain or uncomfortable is very often a great oppurunity to go beyond your own patterns and expand by continuing your practice. Any time we go beyond our own limits we will feel bad, dizzy, chaotic and confuced. But othertimes it is also a sign that what you are doing is destructive. Ive been wondering this many times myself, and have dropped out of many systems because of it. I got tired of dropping out so I said to myself that this next system Im going into is one that Im going to stick to for the rest of my life. And I have for the last seven years. I believe that if you feel bad by doing a practice, take a few days off and just enjoy life. Then start again and see how it feels. There isnt any rules, at least I dont know of any, just go with the feeling. If it is a system you love with a teacher you love and trust, then there will be a good feeling underneath even though you dont feel good with the practice. Anyway, it is always ok to take a few days vacation. Sometimes it is also other things you are doing that destructs your practice, like diet or other things in daily life. Sometimes it all will all be good again if we cut down on bad food, bad company or other things like destructive thoughpatterns. A one-day-water-fast is often very good to get things going again. But I agree with you that negative feedback from the society, friends and family, is one of the best indications that that you are doing is not good. If it dosent make you a better person, a more sane person, drop it and run like hell from it

Hahaha, the "highest clairity school" were a bunch of stoned dudes, hahaha, divine irony

You can be born with it as SFJane say, but it can also come from not closing down properly after meditation. If you leave yourself open on every level you will be affected on every level. And if your not fully aware on those levels, you will get a lot of subconscious noise and rambling. Ive had this problem for many years until I learned to close down properly. It does not mean shut myself out of the world, but just put on clothes to be comfortable in cold weather, if you see what I mean. Some people believe that protection means to shut out all negativity, because they believe the negativity is outside of them. But it really means to make yourself strong enough to not loose your center in everyday life. And it can come from openings in the aura caused by drug abuse, psychic abuse, childhood traumas, etc. Some people really have trouble with these openings, while others only have subtle problems. Ive only had subtle problems, but I understand it is possible to really get psychotic because of it.

oh no, visualization is good, very good, and it probably is very fun to visualize levitation, electrogenesis, cryogenesis, and what not. You should all see how high I visualized I levitated yesterday! How high have you been able to visualize yourself levitating WYG? hahaha I dont think a camera will catch it though. But that migh just be because of the really really high energy coming from the visualization that the camera just cant record. It could be...couldnt it?

haha! great techniques! these guys know the secret to everything. for levitation: visualize yourself levitating. for electrogenesis: visualize electric sparks on your fingertips.

Thank you Jane. You are true inspiration

Dont witches work a lot with demons, entities and angels? If I remember correctly from my witch practises many yeas ago, the rituals was based on calling in certain angels, guardians or demons. Do you really not believe in these things Witch? There are many kinds of entities. It dosent stop with demons or our regular house ghosts. It has a total spectrum of beings raging from the physical parasites to powerful beings in higher realms. I have seen many that are extremely powerful and that there is no way I can deal with. I dont know if you heal, but people who heal others cant have missed it unless they have a very limited perseption and knowlede of what they are doing. Drew has told us his healing story many times, when he pulled this woman out of someones head They also jump on to the healers. Ive seen many healers who dont understand why they have nightmares or feel bad about themselves. Entities are real. But it is probably better to be a happy idiot than to mess around with these things I certainly rather back away than to test my abilities to deal with these things. Ok, lets get back to the regular occult subject please

There are many hierachies of inner bodies. My teacher teaches: element, physical, astral, causal(karmic), mental, etheric, soul, etc. In Keys of Enoch they are physical, electromagnetic, epi-kinetic, eka bodies, gematria, zohar. In theosophy they are physical, etheric, astral, mental, causal, logos, etc. Ken Wilber has a set like this, Gurijief has one, most people who do spiritual cultivation do have a map like this. I find it very interesting to compare different hierarchies and see how they describe the same, only through different point of views. And most mystic schools Ive seen have some sort of map like this. I havent seen a taoist version(unless BKF's count, but Buddy say it isnt taoist) and I think that is strange. Any body know why? Have I just missed it? I think a lot of confusion on the inner bodies comes from the fact that they arent recognized as fractals(everywhere you zoom in or out you see the same pattern). Here is a little bit of what I have learned. On one hand you have the physical world with all the inner bodies represented. Here the emotional would be the feelings and needs you experience in everyday life. The casual is memories, the mental would be the thoughts, etc. And like Pietro say, they are perpesented both inside the body, outside the body in the aura, and in addition to that every organ and bodypart has their consciousnss hierachy the same way. Wrote a little somthing on that here Then we have the astral world where the physical part would be your astral body, the astral part would be the good feelings and so forth. Some traditions say that the astral world is a counterpart to the physical universe but with different laws of physics. It is explained as heaven, where everything is light, happiness, and you instantly manifest what you think of. The casual is explained as where the karma is stored, where akasha can be found. Epi-kinetic, which means above movement, it is the place where the reasons for your choices are. Is is a lower part of the mental world(etheric is the higher part). Ah, dont what to go through the whole hierarchy. My point is that each level is a world and a universe of its own, with its fractal counterparts expressed in the daily life we lead. And that it is easy to confuse the two because it all is a mess of constant expression of every level. We need to be very aware and still to be able to differentiate what is what.

Oh, my reason for saying it is harmful is not about the gamma frequency. You are right, the gamma its about inspiration, clairity of mind and concentration. It is also seen when people do vivid visualisation or inner work on traumas and difficult emotions. But that state dosent have any hormonal or metabolic positive effects. The trance state is not recommended as a way to heal stress or other diseases like meditation is. And it leaves your energy systems open and receptive of anything, not just what you focus on, the master you want to channel, but anything from the subconscious patterns of the person sitting next to you to hungry ghosts in other realms. This is why we need to know and be aware of our inner worlds. We need to be awake and aware of why we feel the way we feel, why we have this or that impulse, where it orginates from, how it is expressed in the inner bodies, etc. Just opening up to some feeling isnt enough if you are trying to be fully awake. Its ok though. We have all been through these things. And to those who havent experienced it, you will someday True masters communicate directly to the ones they want to speak to. And to them it dosent matter if the reciever is aware of it or not in his waking life. The reason I mention this is that very often a channeler starts of with "Oh, I feel I have Metatron, the highest of all angels, here by my side. He says he has a message to us so Ill let him speak through me. "Dear beings of light. You are the chosen ones for this special message I bring now to the world. Bla bla bla"" It makes everyone in the room feel like they are the center of the whole universe and the only ones to bring truth to the world, when they in reality is just another human being on the planet earth having economic and realtionship problems just like the rest of us Most people think that our waking consciousness is the most important part of consciousness. It is not. But this is one of the reasons we seek big feelings and sensations like the ones channelings give us. I was a little off there, too harsh a statment. ALL channeling is not pure ego. Sorry, got carried away. But A LOT of it is. And probably more than we know of when we are in the middle of it. We are so easily fooled by good feelings when we channel. And when we let go of our local ego, we might as well just be opening up to a bigger ego. hahaha. A lot of people do just that. It is also a natural law that states the more you try to loose your ego, the more ego you get Yes, I guess so. Dont take my word for anything I say when I say that trance states are harmful. Get your own experience and get it 100%. But my point of view might help you or others be a little more aware next time and notice a more of what is happening. You will learn a lot more by being awake on all levels of yourself than by loosing yourself in a trance. Dont you agree?

The different bodies are described in many traditions, but with slightly different hierarchy and names. Ive never heard of it in taoism and has actually missed a taoist reference to them. Buddy, could you please elaborate a little bit on what you know? What is tiantai?

But...how do you know that you really are channeling your higher self? I would say it is much better to meditate and achieve a stable awareness of your higher self than to channel it. The three states; hypnosis, trance and meditation can all be differentiated from several physiological parameteres. Hypnosis and meditation is seen in the body as alpha brainwaves. But hypnosis dosent have all the metabolical and hormonal changes that happens in meditation. Trance has a higher brainwave frequency than alpha and is not physiologically healthy at all. And as explained in my previous post, it is not spiritually healthy either. Awareness and stillness meditation on the other hand is healthy in every way. You become more aware, conscious and awake. People that are awake dont channel, they dont need to use someone else to convey their message, or to have a message to convey. This goes both ways, both the channel and the channeled are not knowledgable enough, they are not masters enough(even though they say so), to convey their message as normal people. People that are awake speak from their own knowledge and experience of the universe, not someone elses. And why would a "Master" or an "ascended being of light" need someone to speak for him? As a true master of the higher realms of the universe, are you still that limited? If someone is pure consciousness, why can he then not just speak directly to the other consciousnesses he needs to speak to?? All channeling is ego, pure ego. Both from the channel and the channeled. I think a lot of people find channeling and trance states fun because it is something tangible, something mystical and experiencable. But it is only childs play. The more awake people get, the less they need to channel.

This definetly needed its own thread. Here is my post from the Kiai-thread: I would say trance is a pretty dagerous thing unless you really really know what you connect to. Some people do know, but most dont. We have guys like Edgar Cayce, JK Knight(or something like that), that are able to keep it real. But all the reiki-new-age-people all around the world channeling every master they see a picture of are really only harming themselves and their listeners. Ive seen many channelers and what they connect to is definetly not jesus(or sananda as he is popularly called in channeling communities), Melchizedek, Sanat Kumara, Metatron, etc. It is someone else that is avaiable in other realms. Could be anyone, but because the channel is in trance he wouldnt know. Too often will channeling sessions leave people spaced out, feeling all warm and full of love, but with no grounding in reality. And then whats the point of felling love if not for fulfilling your own egos needs? Notice especially how so many channelings start with things like "greeting beings of light", "you are the chosen ones", etc. It adresses the ego. Peoples aura and energysystems are blasted after channeling sessions. They are not expanded into the "unlimited universe of love", it is destroyed and left open like a wound for anyone in any realm to poke on. They are not awakened and ascended masters of love, they are pushed into a corner leaving themselves open to be manipulated by anyone. But the ability to let go is ofcourse important, but you dont need trance-states to practice that. The trance-state in itself has not much to offer us.

I would say trance is a pretty dagerous thing unless you really really know what you connect to. Some people do know, but most dont. We have guys like Edgar Cayce, JK Knight(or something like that), that are able to keep it real. But all the reiki-new-age-people all around the world channeling every master they see a picture of are really only harming themselves and their listeners. Ive seen many channelers and what they connect to is definetly not jesus(or sananda as he is popularly called in channeling communities), Melchizedek, Sanat Kumara, Metatron, etc. It is someone else that is avaiable in other realms. Could be anyone, but because the channel is in trance he wouldnt know. Too often will channeling sessions leave people spaced out, feeling all warm and full of love, but with no grounding in reality. And then whats the point of felling love if not for fulfilling your own egos needs? Notice especially how so many channelings start with things like "greeting beings of light", "you are the chosen ones", etc. It adresses the ego. Peoples aura and energysystems are blasted after channeling sessions. They are not expanded into the "unlimited universe of love", it is destroyed and left open like a wound for anyone in any realm to poke on. They are not awakened and ascended masters of love, they are pushed into a corner leaving themselves open to be manipulated by anyone. But the ability to let go is ofcourse important, but you dont need trance-states to practice that. The trance-state in itself has not much to offer us.

Youre paranoid man... please go see a phyciatrist...

Yes youre right of course, but have you seeen how science has changed on the way? Its a paradigm... do you see what I mean? Just because science dosent proove it dosent mean it dosent exist. Just because scientists have disprooved something dosent mean anything. Science is still only working within its own paradigm. Anything outside of that paradigm wont be accepted by the scientist community. So if your reality-testing is based on what science has achieved, your reality will be limited to that paradigm.