3bob

if one gets information from a well recognized and accepted source of doctrine directly related to or of a certain religion and that doctrine itself is poison, yet one remains lovey-dovey about it then what would you call that?

makes me wonder how the Sufi sect deal with all that black and white violent doctrine that was quoted? (in post 100 and elsewhere)

"When we are depressed, we may actually be able to see through the falsity and deceptive nature of the samsaric world". (from op post) Well what "samsaric world" when taking into account the following: "In Root Verses on the Middle Way, Nagarjuna says, “Samsara has nothing that distinguishes itself from Nirvana; Nirvana has nothing that distinguishes itself from Samsara. The limit of Nirvana is the limit of Samsara, there is not the slightest difference between the two.”

This world will change when and as it evolves and becomes "heaven" like. The soul of the Earth and others know of that hard won evolution. Then fighting and strife will no longer be taking place here although it will be taking place somewhere else - for beings that have yet to evolve beyond states of warfare, strangely sounding enough and in a way need such states to work through to evolve.

That was a lot to reflect on Shunka! Thanks for your contribution and taking the time to bring up many fine points. I did seem to hear some mixed messages related to quotes from the Dalai Lama... For instance on one hand he is saying (my paraphrase) "love will over-come all problems" pov but then he also gives a "shoot as needed to kill" pov.. I ask, can one exercise both pov's and really pull it off as if they are unified in their state of being? I'm not seeing that happening... for there can be problems with us not knowing our own limitations in one way or another. For instance only a being of what we might call a +7 magnitude can do direct battle with a being of -7 magnitude and fully deal with and understand what is happening, and thus pull it off - with "love". On the other hand a being of say +2 magnitude should not try to pull off doing battle with a -6 magnitude of being which they do not fully understand and thus can not really handle, which doesn't mean to do nothing but to join forces with and follow the lead given by +7 beings. Btw, my partial definition of a +7 being is one who has faced the deepest and darkest -7 demon within themselves and overcome, thus they can face the same on the (so called) outside.

Jesus fearlessly pointed out the hypocrisy and far worse things of his time (for instance occurrences of corruption in the Jewish establishment and Roman Empire, and that's putting it very mildly) Thus the point is not really the outer form or names of such but what they are doing nitty-gritty wise or what they boil down to, and then to be to be pointed out and recognized for such meanings - whether negative and violent or positive and kind . Problem is having the wisdom to point correctly.

something has got to give and it won't be the Tao, thus "that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be"; which does not seem to help in horrific situations such as being discussed yet if that is not the ultimate standard (and a default besides our various human standards) then Tao would be utter chaos without any quintessential and foundational truth.

Thanks for the fine reflections Manitou God bless the poets like Gibran that help us hear and remember the still small voices that speak to us...

Spirit/soul veiled (or more or less bound) in relative states of the life and death forces knows in its depth that such veils and being under such forces are not its true freedom, thus it seeks on and on, and when coming upon, knowing and being that Truth - then if or when it chooses to move through such forces it will no longer be bound by or to them, and that is one happy son of a gun!

yes, that was what I was trying to allude to with unconditional love. (in the sense of It being so fast that it is already there) Along with an "It" and a "mine" no longer being differentiated. Om

if they are removed who will take their place and do their job? (so to speak) Thus they to will remain at whatever level, just as do all other forms of beings remain at whatever level - that is until all individual beings or any other types of forms are no more, for then only source withdrawn into itself where it never really left IS, for such is the game. One might also add something along the lines of the only question is not, "to be, or not to be" and include "to identify oneself only as form, or not to identify oneself only as form".

while we are at it how about asking where the primary ego is; heart, head, ass or all three?

such is true on the purely physical level, while other things are true at other levels of vibrations that are not discernible with just 5 outwardly focused physical senses.

that is fast but unconditional love is far faster than that, so fast in fact that the entire universe is traversed instantly.

Wow, a lot of romantic notions being given about the moon.... Another take is seeing the moon as a source of power that demons and their associated and 'turned' human warlocks and or witch's can convert and pervert to their maximum benefit for raising unholy hell on earth. Thus I'd say that the moon only being described in a poetically peaceful way while a horrific war is going on is incomplete. (edit: added onto and sentence restructure. )

the escape velocity of earthly consciousness to sun consciousness is...

that which knows the "spirit of death" for what it is, is fearless and free of death or karmic bindings to reciporcal life

Agreed, and I'd also add the idea of vibration that is so fast that is already everywhere at once and standing still.

Is that so?

no need to pin down that which can not be pinned down, although kicking around some maps and ideas has its place it is also like the following story: "A number of blind men came to an elephant. Somebody told them that it was an elephant. The blind men asked, ‘What is the elephant like?’ and they began to touch its body. One of them said: 'It is like a pillar.' This blind man had only touched its leg. Another man said, ‘The elephant is like a husking basket.’ This person had only touched its ears. Similarly, he who touched its trunk or its belly talked of it differently. In the same way, he who has seen the Lord in a particular way limits the Lord to that alone and thinks that He is nothing else"

Hmm, Tzujan... Is such a "spiritual naturalness" as Tzujan fully natural and or only "so-ness", and if so then it leaves no room for non-Tzujan and if that is so then is it still Tzujan since it would then be forcing itself which as previously defined or implied would not be "natural"? Btw: there is the saying of "that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be" yet how could anyone or anything really be against the Tao "which is in all things"? Also, at some point all things cease to be anyway depending on how you count such, for instance if you count such on the level of molecules then all things are in near constant ceasing and reforming. One might continue by asking how much room or leeway does Tao allow for that which is against-Tao before such ceases to be since "soon" is not spontaneous as is the action of Tzujan ? This is all tied to who or what could pull off some off this non or against type of stuff? Heck, the Tao can pull off yin and yang at the extremes of both thus leaving room for such. open to any comments?

Rites, rituals, and ceremonies done consciously of Tao are in no way unspontaneous - not unlike doing the dishes and scrubbing the floor consciously of Tao - or as a saying in Zen alludes to with. "chopping wood and carrying water". Thus MH it sounds to me like you are expressing your personal bias against certain forms based only a surface view of same.

a quote to chew on: (if you like) "It is hoped that we have demonstrated convincingly the main conclusion that the cyclical movement between two opposites is absent in spontaneous changes and is typical of unspontaneous changes. The Taoist sage is the one who can follow the course of spontaneous changes and avoid unspontaneous changes. In so doing, he can preserve or restore the peace and harmony in the universe and live a long life free from dangers" from a pdf file found on the net named: "lao_tzu_on_changes" Further header: Two Kinds of Changes in Lao Tzu’s Thought By Sung-Peng Hsu Published in Journal of Chinese Philosophy Vol. 4 No. 4 December 1977

I think this great Buddhist sutta on the "poison arrow" could also be well used with blame being inserted below instead of the arrow - and how we sometimes go through motions similar to those described in trying to pin down blame(s) on someone. (ouch) Quoted: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta: The Shorter Instructions to Malunkya" (MN 63), Majjhima Nikaya "It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a priest, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him"

btw, to blame the blamer for the blame is just more fancy footwork, thus how would one take off such shoes? (examples anyone?)