3bob

Good fortune and cheers!

or maybe both in varying degrees.

sandpaper has its purpose

why did various Sages leave various nuts and bolts legacies and also write books for us to reflect upon?

if we know who our enemies are, and then why they are, and then how they are, and then what they are, then we are half way to being able to put transformation into practice, otherwise we as individuals and as mankind will always have "enemies" popping out of the woodwork and in effect never get off first base with teachings like the T.T.C., etc. And as many of us well know, "we have met the enemy and he is us"

I liked what to me were the workable reflections and positions given as, "is that so?" and "You're right and I'm happy". Thanks for those... I believe a much more difficult reflection and position to take in relation to also dealing with blame is given in the following quote, (which btw is along the lines of "love thine enemy" an enemy who may often include blaming others) Meditation in Affliction, Gyalwa Longchenpa "Assailed by afflictions, we discover Dharma And find the way to liberation. Thank you, evil forces! When sorrows invade the mind, we discover Dharma And find lasting happiness. Thank you, sorrows! Through harm caused by spirits we discover Dharma And find fearlessness. Thank you, ghosts and demons! Through people's hate we discover Dharma And find benefits and happiness. Thank you, those who hate us! Through cruel adversity, we discover Dharma And find the unchanging way. Thank you, adversity! Through being impelled to by others, we discover Dharma And find the essential meaning. Thank you, all who drive us on! We dedicate our merit to you all, to repay your kindness"

that was a comment but I'm not going say it was funny

Dwai, Thank you for the in-depth reply and information. And I have studied what you mentioned but even now still tend to see honor and respect as being applicable for all other beings compared to worship for the Supreme Being in whatever form one chooses to do so. Thus I have some work to do...

The way I look at it is that "mind" can not attain a state of complete freedom since it is inherently dualistic, besides it's not master nor meant to be master of spirit but servant to It, thus only consciously conscious spirit is completely free.

They swim unconsciously to whatever degree or measure while having few choices, thus they are mainly driven by mechanical like forces, we as mankind also walk around unconsciously to whatever degree although having an "X" amount of more choices and gobbs more potential for development, still we are also often driven by mechanical like forces - for example marching off to war instead of nipping it in the bud per exercising non-mechanical reactions. One might ask if being a non-participating observer of Tzujan is really Tzujan which could imply one being fully conscious and fully participating at a level that is free of all mechanical like actions or reactions? (meaning how can there be true spontaneous-ness in the sense of Tao without true freedom?)

and those are very fine thoughts indeed! Thanks for your contribution Cadejoblanco

Well if we go with the idea of the Tao that "goes far" namely to The One and on then on to the Ten Thousand, along with the idea of "return" being from the Ten Thousand which in effect is a very convoluted and a relatively un-conscious "natural" point or state of being swept along mechanically or under various forms of suffering) it then stands to reason (so to speak) that a being could be stuck in that part of the current unless they made a conscious effort to return to or go against said mechanical aspect of the current to what is also natural in Source and its singular law which is seemingly but not really hidden inside and outside everywhere. (if you will) For as long as a being feels disconnection from source as in lost and bound in spun-out convolutions - it will not rest or know the freedom and peace that ultimately is. (minor edit)

A tangent: I think it is or can be a major misunderstanding when we hear the term, "go with the flow", for going with the flow can also be a mechanical like and unconscious being blown about by the wind. There is no 'Sage" in the condition of being blown about unconsciously in the wind. (or if using the water and river analogy) Thus it takes a conscious will to surrender one's will to a greater law - or be taken by a lesser law of being blown about unconsciously with the flow of mechanical like forces. (simply put, one has to go against the flow of certain mechanical like or so called natural forces to make the "return")

Hello MH, Thank you for the reflective reply! "Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. I is the state of Oneness. Self-so. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason." submitted by MH And now I'll have to do some reflecting of my own. I think I've more or less melded parts of your submission above with Tao... I'm not sure about the meaning of "Self-development" part of the definition if it is already "Self-so" in a "state of Oneness" if you know what I mean? (perhaps Self-expression would fit in there instead?) I also take it that you mean the Tzujan is ideally reflected in the physical world? Gotta run off to work right now, Later Bob

I've always had a problem with that term "loser" being that it is more or less ego based via ego measurements. As far as Spirit is concerned there are no losers for Spirit never gives up or loses, working in any way possible or even the seemingly impossible.

I say that I have met and or come across gods, immortals, and some counter-parts to same but i don't really know much and can't claim to be qualified to teach about same. (although able mention witness of such to some degree) Btw, one might ask, is "The One" that contains all gods and immortals, immortal itself?

Manitou, I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty to extrapolate on your last sentence above by saying: a spiritual ally tested by fire always fits, for they have passed the points of unfitting .

The meaning of "immortal" is not exactly agreed upon, for instance are the gods immortal compared to normal mankind - yes, are the lesser gods or devas immortal compared to the gods -no, is the master who is at one with the Tao more immortal than the gods - perhaps or for some of them, does someone who denies the immortal out of very limited experience and or a closed mind know much about of such states - obviously no compared to those who know differently from first hand experience and knowledge.

Manitou, I think that is really an uplifting and evolved meaning and reflection you've given compared to the original context of the words in that old, irresponsible, catchy tune from the late 60's era of "free-love" that was often very costly! Thanks for sharing

music video via you tube: Indeed Hallelujah! and Happy birthday Lord and Master Jesus Christ!

"Interpreted by : Francis O'Brien Many times Cohen says hallelujah in many different contexts; this is the core of the song and will be explained at the end of the analysis. For the first part: Now I've heard there was a secret chord That David played, and it pleased the Lord But you don't really care for music, do you? It goes like this The fourth, the fifth The minor fall, the major lift The baffled king composing Hallelujah This relates to the story of King David who had an intimate relation with god and was also a great harp player (secret cord/pleased the lord). The hallelujah at the end of this verse is a happy and spiritual one. Second part: Your faith was strong but you needed proof You saw her bathing on the roof Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you She tied you To a kitchen chair She broke your throne, and she cut your hair And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah In this part Cohen relates to the story of David and Bathsheba when David was walking on the roofs he saw her bathing and seduced her ending up committing adultery and lost a lot of influence and weakened his link with god (broken throne). Then we move to the story of Samson who gets his hair cut and loses all his powers, once again, a broken throne. In this verse, the hallelujah is a very sad and desperate one. Third Part: Baby I have been here before I know this room, I've walked this floor I used to live alone before I knew you. I've seen your flag on the marble arch Love is not a victory march It's a cold and it's a broken Hallelujah In this part Cohen talks about the ambivalence of love and its effect on your faith. It can be glorious like a flag on a marble arch or it can be cold and broken. And when in heart break you may lose or strengthen your faith, in this case it is strengthened because he still praises the lord in the end. In this case, the hallelujah is (obviously) cold and broken. Fourth Part: There was a time you let me know What's really going on below But now you never show it to me, do you? And remember when I moved in you The holy dove was moving too And every breath we drew was Hallelujah This is an obvious reference to sexuality and that even through an act as disgraceful as sex you can still praise the lord. In this verse the hallelujah can be interpreted as an “orgasmic” one. Fifth Part: You say I took the name in vain I don't even know the name But if I did, well really, what's it to you? There's a blaze of light In every word It doesn't matter which you heard The holy or the broken Hallelujah This is a reference to one of the ten commandments and through this Cohen is trying to make the listener understand that religion and faith is not etched in stone and that every one should interpret the holy texts and religion in his own way and that there is no “Right Way” to believe. This is an uncertain hallelujah, meaning that he is not sure what to believe but he believes anyway. Sixth Part: I did my best, it wasn't much I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you And even though It all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah In this part, he has found what to believe in and realizes his past errors but he is ready to face the lord because he now has complete faith. This hallelujah is one of total faith and love for “the lord”. Hallelujahs: The song revolves around the word Hallelujah, which is a Hebrew word which means praise Yah/Jah or the Lord. And through the song, he says that all Hallelujahs are of equal value no matter the circumstance or the cause of the act. Weather it is in complete blissful faith or is from broken desperation, all ways and goals to praise the lord mean the same and are all equal"

"However, I think it would be proper to say "All things contain Tao." (Chuang Tzu spoke nicely to this.)" MH Yes, that is a better connotation although such would then probably need some filling out to cut down on various interpretations if a singular interpretation is to be agreed upon. "And this is because of Karma." MH Well, that sounds more problematic in meaning to me being that Tao is free from karmic reactions although things are not.

The word "masters" has several degrees so such should have agreed upon meanings... Having said that great masters do not die per-se, the soul that they are travels to the sun and perhaps then to the Sun of all suns. One may get a visitors pass there but only great masters can stay and or explain to whatever degree needed - answers to such a question.

...another very fine post Steve.

Oops, I meant more like the following sentence below instead of the earlier one above: Imagine the One, it contains the Two.... thus if you will imagine the Tao (or whatever term) it contains the One which contains all past and future, like inside a circle instead of only in a straight line. Hard to imagine right? (with the word contain not being a perfect meaning)