3bob

"Actually, this has to do with the thread about One being pre-Dao. (Which I don't accept at this point in time.)" MH Agreed, The One is not pre-Tao, I'd say it is the first born and also last child of Tao. (to return) "How can some "thing" that is undefinable be said to change? Not possible." MH I believe the use of "something" in the first part of chapter 25 was not meant in the sense or context of a 'thing' as the word is normally used. .

"Cool! But we are still talking about us being the authors of our own karma. The cultivation leads us to a place where we can eventually choose the best decision, rather than being attached to an emotion (revenge is the first thing that pops into my head)" by Rara. Agreed to a certain point but we still have to write or be authors (so to speak) within a greater framework or context of laws derived from Tao, thus anyone who says something like, "I did it my way" regardless of and bragging on a seeming independence from the greater law which is impartial and exacting - is missing the Way. (for if such was possible then chaos would be a vast understatement for the condition of the universe, which would then not be the universe)

hehe, or maybe it makes a circle or cycle when viewed in another way. Btw, don't some say there is a white hole on the other side of a black hole so the energy would be seen again so to speak, since in that sense even a black hole can not destroy energy? Consider some short excerpts from the T.T.C.: "Continually the Un-nameable moves on, until it returns (or circles back on itself per an image I'm positing) beyond the realm of things" (Ch 14) and then I'd crudely say bites itself in the ass where it is and always was "Standing alone without change" (ch 25), thus in that state-less state without movement linear or otherwise.

if an apparently straight line of light traveling in or per time bends around and bites itself in the ass then what?

Examples related to earlier post: The great Sage for #3. "those steadfast in non-reactive action, able to see most or all options and practice the ones of the least negative consequences, including even the nipping in the bud, mitigating or transforming and balancing of karma's". Btw, karma's are not exactly or only good or bad when seen from a greater viewpoint of learning from and balancing of same, thus one might say it is or can be good to learn from bad along with such other double takes. For #2. "somewhat or sometimes able to see and consider options", are those who have learned some karmic lessons and sometimes apply same. And for #1, "purely instinctive and reactive", are those caught in the reactive brunt since not much learning has taken place - yet. One might ask, "what defines learning and with what framework or standard" To that I'd answer to the framework and standard of the Tao for "what is against the Tao will soon cease to be" (from chapter 30 and also in other chapters)

Thanks MH, Imagine the One, it contains the Two.... thus if you will imagine the Tao (or whatever term) it contains all past and future, like inside a circle instead of only in a straight line. Hard to imagine right?

Beings only exist in periods of time and space, take away those periods then the Tao has not given birth to The One, The Two, The Three, and the Ten Thousand per the teaching of the Tao Teh Ching, along with the I - Ching being null and void since it would never have arisen in relation to said non-existent Beings and all other non existent forms. Thus the relative past and future (with their karmas) all exist and are connected along with or in the un-measureable absolute and unchanging karma-free present.

...then why did you directly link such in your earlier statement per "deci's" name in a proprietary sounding way? (btw, the use of the word "peculiar" sounds somewhat peculiar to me in your implied or alluded to context, also there is nothing delectable in dealing with a poster named deci who has very often insulted and belittled multiple people at this web-site and who in fact was banded for an "x" amount of time because of it.

I didn't misunderstand what was written, thus if you want to modify or amend what you wrote then have at it...

if you replace your memories with deci's knowlege or anyone else's you are a fool under a spell, and for her, him or whatever that person is not to correct you on that point reveals how pompous they are and how misled you are.

Are you thinking that you "love" those little grains before, during and after cooking? "By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed. For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand"

DB, I suggest that you never expect others to fulfill your expectations...or cry about them not doing so! Here is a prayer to try out, regardless of its Christian background it is of universal in intent: "Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace; Where there is hatred, let me sow love; Where there is injury, pardon; Where there is discord, harmony; Where there is error, truth; Where there is doubt, faith; Where there is despair, hope; Where there is darkness, light; And where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, Grant that I may not so much seekTo be consoled as to console; To be understood as to understand; To be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; It is in pardoning that we are pardoned; And it is in dying (to ego) that we are born to eternal life." from St. Francis

Um, first we need to define the meanings of "human" (which I used as a catch all type of term earlier that leaves a lot to be desired or considered further) For instance, the differences between a human that only practices an "eye for eye" type of justice, another that may not always practice such, and also one who never practices such. Thus karmas can work differently through those three beings - where labels like the following could more or less be applied: 1. purely instinctive and reactive, 2. somewhat or sometimes able to see and consider options, and 3. those steadfast in non-reactive action, able to see most or all options and practice the ones of the least negative consequences, including even the nipping in the bud, mitigating or transforming and balancing of karmas... some examples pending...

karma is like carrying weights and various objects, it can not pass through the gate, thus neither can the being pass that has it woven or attached (so to speak) throughout their state of being.

Rara, That sounds interesting but I meant more along the lines of what might be called universal karmic law compared to say human derived law... For instance with human derived law or karma (or at that level so to speak) reaction may not be very just for a first time action; in other words when you break a law the first time in relation to human law you could easily have to suffer the full brunt of that law regardless if you were ignorant of it or not, whereas universal karmic law would take ignorance of a law into account and to whatever degree, (?) but once there was non-ignorance of a karmic law and the same or similar break was repeated again then one would start to have multipliers added to the reaction beyond a set amount of "equal but opposite". Such also applies in relation to human derived laws for repeat offenders but the calculation is a human one, thus not on the level of perfectly exacting spiritual laws. A very important additional point though is that karma can be mitigated, transformed or superseded by greater laws of compassion and wisdom that do not break it but are of a higher and or quicker calculation and reaction via source than just at the "eye for an eye" level.

along with who knows how many possible multipliers depending on several factors that only karma can calculate, thus not always a one to one ratio of or for karma .

to deny our aspect as a particular being and or a matrix connected to source would also be "ignorance", for source has no problem with particular beings or matrices and neither should we; an analogy for that would be saying a window should have no problems with houses... ...or along the lines of a reciprocal take on the Taoist saying below: 11. THIRTY spokes converge upon a single hub; It is on the hole in the center that the use of the cart hinges. We make a vessel from a lump of clay; It is the empty space within the vessel that makes it useful. We make doors and windows for a room; But it is these empty spaces that make the room livable. Thus, while the tangible has advantages, It is the intangible that makes it useful.

Bump, Dreambliss, I'd add in simpler terms that it sounded like you wanted to bounce some stuff off of other people to see what popped out of the bushes and I think some good and useful stuff definitely popped out - thus I thought you might also have some use for what you apparently don't want to hear, namely a reminder that LoA works both ways which could be for the negative when you proclaim or hold onto some stupid, self-defeating and pitiful manifesto of, "Either my life will improve or it will end"., especially when we hear that you should know better considering what you have already studied and worked on; thus there is really nothing for you or any of the rest of us to do but get on with evolving through suffering in whatever ways possible, come hell or high-water.

"Either my life will improve or it will end" I'd say this is a misinformed idea: For instance if one's present physical life ends while having a hellish, unresolved like mindset then the energy of that will continue or arise in another and whatever resultant form per any self-destructive LoA actions - that is until work is done for resolution, for there is no checking out of one's state or place with threats to the "universe". (period) Further, a "not to be" part of an old saying is an impossible dream, for no one "slips out the back jack" without facing whatever needs to be faced - sooner or later... btw, a 'later' and unfortunate result that has fewer or lost opportunities makes for a tougher game and even harder work like crawling on one's belly over broken glass for miles while being pounded on with a sledge hammer just in order to reach a clean strip of dirt and grass and hopefully catch a break, for in that case when said strip of dirt and grass is finally reached it would give joy and rest for which one's heartfelt thanks would pour out to the previously hated and wrongly misjudged universe! (edit: some sentence clean up)

No one can force feed you your own truth, if they tried doing so would be at least a half lie

Soul seeing/knowing spirit (if you will with those terms) can not be done without having an "x" amount of certain parts working together in the first place, thus there is no waste of life as some may project if those "x" amount of parts serve or have served their purpose as a matrix. I'm not proclaiming or advocating just concepts, thoughts, a 'big" religious idea or mind tripping about spirit - which if that was all it ever amounted to then yes, that would more or less be a type of pasted on concept or construct that would probably fade or waste away - being that without enough related and gutsy development there would be no resulting first hand and indelible experiences. Btw, it would also be a type waste if one got stuck on only an "x" part of a tree (or aspect) and then missed or dismissed the forest, mountains, lakes, sky, and sun. (so to speak) I'd add that there is no freedom greater than the freedom of spirit which is of inherent and indestructible truth, and that can never and will never be a waste of time or lost to any level or power of death; thus in that sense death as some kind of ultimate end game is a lie since it is powerless against the deathless freedom of spirit that we are. (and not just some neo-quasi-doubtful-whatever-lost-forever in space fear) (and it sounds like I'm off topic for TW, thus I'll take my leave but thanks to all for the interesting exchanges earlier :-)

Nungali said: "Still ... I have my romantic notion of part of me ascending and dissolving , and giving all up to the ..... <insert whatever here > ... (I insert 'Star Goddess' ) . " Ok, there are parts that may do that. Btw, I heard your linked poem as an articulate exercise in nihilistic depression. I think it's a more or less self-inflicted narcotic like lie as far as Spirit is concerned - for spirit sees death die and when you see and know yourself as spirit then you also see death die, for that spirit of truth is life and joy that is beyond (and thus not tied to) death and sorrow, nor a fading away into some vague, fated and unavoidable nul where one might believe there is rest, for again the most true and lasting rest is also in the indestructible, irresistible and irrepressible Spirit as Self that is ever alive in a far greater sense than being bound in some time or place and identified with forms that do come to an end. Best wishes and some luck to ya

Thanks for the links. Some of very the best pointers to Atman (as Brahman especially) are in the Upanishads!! I don't see a comparison between the "shadow" as described by Jung as being in the same ballpark, although Atman would know "shadow" and all other categories yet could not be put in a category per-se. It's amazing how an advanced being can help one see their shadow without one getting lost to it...

A link on the "shadow", notes from Carl Jung (oops the link did not work but its on wiki-pedia)

I don't see clever sarcasm as noble, even if we sometimes get a kick out of it.