3bob

Ct, I know the point you were trying to make earlier, and yes it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness but then again don't be surprised when lighting a candle if the darkness curses back.

well it got nulled out in the name of peace, but who's peace?

Thanks for sharing your absolute conceptual information about no absolute ground of being, but who really does a particular school or any other school or person for that matter apparently think they are if they teach that they hold the power to "forbid" this or that, for instance is well recognized common ground known as non-dualism forbidden?? In the end (so to speak) didn't the Buddha say that even the raft, vehicle, or power related to same in Buddhism also had to be set down?

I don't know the details about what you say but I had heard some of those things years ago. BUT remember that mantra along with Krishna related schools were here long (exceedingly long) before the particular group you've brought up came along and screwed up... thus I suggest you look into bona-fide lineages from Lord Vishnu based schools. (problems such as these happen with just about all religions throughout the thousands of years they have been around)

(Edited in late:) Thanks for sharing your absolute conceptual information about no absolute ground of being, but who really does a particular school or any other school or person for that matter apparently think they are if they teach that they hold the power to "forbid" this or that, for instance is well recognized common ground known as non-dualism forbidden?? In the end (so to speak) didn't the Buddha say that even the raft, vehicle, or power of Buddhism had to be set down? ...when death dies there is no mourning and if that is not a good enough similarity to put in their proper places the differences you speak of then I'd say all is "the vanity of vanities" (but I wouldn't say that except as a devils advocate)

If we can plug the term nirvana into the four-fold negation formula then we can also plug the term emptiness into it with similar or the same results. As for a certain shared experience such does not happen on a non-dual level by its very definition. (if that definition is shared, oops )

my little brain will have to ponder on that big nutshell, also your last sentence sounds like a good summation.

"And, "...we cannot either affirm or deny anything about them" with anything other than the intellect." by Steve I disagree with your sentence above and you may to if you reconsider its wording which ends with what sounds like a renege on the quote contained within it? (being that the intellect can only partially look or point, thus not really affirm or deny in an absolute way (especially to others) subjects like nirvana) "This is the stepping off point for letting go of that particular tool, perhaps." by Steve. I agree with your sentence here but without adding the "perhaps" at the end.

Actually I can see that my use of the word "lie" was a poor one (edit: if interpreted) in the way you've pointed out. My apologies. What I was trying to say goes right back to Udana 8.3 in that if that sutta (and or any parallel to it) was not true then wouldn't the struggles per the rest of Buddhist doctrine towards Udana 8.3 be futile or in vain...per what the Buddha was pointing out... (along with the idea that such a futile quandary could apply to any religion, system or cult that had untrue doctrine) "I would hope that, at very least, we could agree that the motivation of the great masters and the expression of Samantabhadra or Sat-chit-ananda through their teachings is altruistic and wholesome." by Steve, (and agreed with by Bob)

Btw, a "potential" can be gained or lost, now or later, but Truth (or whatever terms one prefers to point to it with) does not answer to those laws.

What good to put Vedanta in a box either and then have mutually exclusive boxes, (?) since any descriptions from any schools of any religions or systems are still basically in the same description boat although in different parts of it, whether using super-duper complex sayings or chopping wood and carrying water.

That sounds very interesting TI, good studies to you.

I think the four-fold negation lets intellect know where it stands and that at some point one must trust in and follow the Noble Eight Fold Path to go further as a Buddhist... "The Buddha established a monastic Order (the San.gha), with five basic Precepts: not to kill, not to steal, not to be unchaste, not to drink intoxicants, and not to lie. The monastic discipline soon involved many more rules, and the Five Precepts became simple moral injunctions that applied to the laity as well as to the monks and nuns -- until debate began about whether the Precepts needed to be observed at all. Practice and Enlightenment then lead one to Nirvâna, which the Buddha refused to positively characterize. Since Nirvâna means "Extinction," do we even exist when we achieve Nirvâna? The Buddha denied that we exist, denied that we do not exist, denied that we both exist and do not exist, and denied that we neither exist nor do not exist. This kind of answer is called the Four-Fold Negation and becomes a fundamental Buddhist philosophical principle to deal with attempts to characterize Nirvân.a or ultimate reality: we cannot either affirm or deny anything about them." (with just the intellect)

...add some Our Fathers - oops in your case it would be add some chapters of the T.T.C. and go in peace.

if you make a confession aren't I supposed to do something afterwards?

Intellect doesn't know what Buddha-nature is either... as for consistency (at times not) the Buddha was known to sometimes turn his monks up side down and inside out with various sayings. We also have small and big vehicles, sayings "outside transmission", Tibetan and many others. (?) Thus I'd say contradiction was/is a very common thing except to what Udana 8.3 is trying to point to. (which can not really be nailed down any more definitively with additional terms although such additional terms may be helpful to someone where it might not be to another) edit: cleaned up my first version of this some

simply put - men and women are not equal in all ways and if any man or woman doesn't see that well then imo they are more or less nuts. (and I don't care if someone or no one agrees with that summation)

There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not. Chuang Tzu (c.360 BC - c. 275 BC)

It's still a mystery and thankfully so since it would be a sad day if science could put it in a box and then kill it.

"Sat" means True (as a Sanskrit root) besides its "Brahman" connotation thus a kind of trick question to go beyond intellect as you say... Btw, intellect doesn't really know what "empty" or "Brahman" are, (if we are agreed on that?) thus you wouldn't be insisting on empty or an "empty aspect" would you? (although I'd see being prone to it as being open to it, with either term)

I posted this in another thread where there was apparently no interest in it. (no biggy) . So I'm wondering if there might be any interest and resulting conversation about it here in the Buddhist sub-forum? Btw, if it was the Buddhas own intention to do as sentence #3 says why would any outside prompting be needed? which btw. has some parallel to the incident where he got outside prompting from a great god to continue his teaching when he questioned himself and the value of his doing so post enlightenment? I find such to be in-congruent under the circumstances, how about you? ------------------------------------------------------- I'd say the Buddha talked about maintaining (his soul as an immortal) throughout a "world cycle" * but that didn't happen per this excerpt from the: Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha translated from the Pali by Sister Vajira & Francis Story © 1998: From part Three: "Relinquishing the Will to Live, The Blessed One's Prompting 3. And the Blessed One said: "Whosoever, Ananda, has developed, practiced, employed, strengthened, maintained, scrutinized, and brought to perfection the four constituents of psychic power could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it. [21] The Tathagata, Ananda, has done so. Therefore the Tathagata could, if he so desired, remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it." 4. But the Venerable Ananda was unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting, given by the Blessed One. As though his mind was influenced by Mara, [22] he did not beseech the Blessed One: "May the Blessed One remain, O Lord!. May the Happy One remain, O Lord, throughout the world-period, for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, out of compassion for the world, for the benefit, well being, and happiness of gods and men!" 5. And when for a second and a third time the Blessed One repeated his words, the Venerable Ananda remained silent. 6. Then the Blessed One said to the Venerable Ananda: "Go now, Ananda, and do as seems fit to you." "Even so, O Lord." And the Venerable Ananda, rising from his seat, respectfully saluted the Blessed One, and keeping his right side towards him, took his seat under a tree some distance away." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *description of a world cycle: Great Aeon or World Cycle (Maha-kappa) A maha kappa or aeon is generally taken to mean a world cycle. How long is a world cycle? In Samyutta ii, Chapter XV, the Buddha used the parables of the hill and mustard-seed for comparison: • Suppose there was a solid mass, of rock or hill, one yojana (eight miles) wide, one yojana across and one yojana high and every hundred years, a man was to stroke it once with a piece of silk. That mass of rock would be worn away and ended sooner than would an aeon. • Suppose there was a city of iron walls, one yojana in length, one yojana in width, one yojana high and filled with mustard-seeds to the brim. There-from a man was to take out every hundred years a mustard-seed. That great pile of mustard-seed would be emptied and ended sooner than would an aeon.

"There is an unborn, unoriginated, unproduced, unformed. Were there not this unborn, unoriginated, unproduced, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, produced, formed. Since there is an unborn, unoriginated, unproduced, unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, produced, formed" (The Gospel of Buddha - Sermon at the bamboo grove at Rajagaha Udana 8:3) If this were not "Sat" then would not Buddhism be a lie?

"mind" in Buddhism is not "mind" in Hinduism so the terms and meanings do not correlate.

when death dies there is no mourning...

"So she would join, if the current female complement posted female specific posts , .. well they always couldve, or she couldve joined, and then asked questions". by Josh This is true, but I feel there are several factors involved that impact people more than just simply joining and then posting whether they are women or anyone else, namely if there are multiple types of wars going on at the site who wants to get shot at or wounded if they looking around as a newcomer? (btw, and of course the tough cookies aren't worried about such bullets but how many people start out as tough cookies or how many tough cookies are tired of dealing with such bullets after "x" number of years?) Thus imo we had many valid concerns about having a humane playing field instead of the battle-field that was often happening.