3bob

Well BKA brought up a valid point in another string about dealing with ass@#$!& -Btw, the Book of Revelations in Christianity also brings it up and there-in Jesus and His angels then have and exercise other aspects besides forgiveness... (thus we can then be back to related comments made in post #3)

cool, I've never tried that. Another thing: most tellers ask you if you found everything ok, and sometimes I say no because they don't have it and don't stock it, along with the fact that there is very little or nothing the teller can do about it ...maybe over-loaded tellers don't need to hear that?

yes, and many more points or observations such as the following: "Is it possible to put together a coherent theology of sin, forgiveness, and the divine will from these passages without doing intellectual acrobatics?" Which I think is related to why many people have more or less given up on certain aspects of religion as it is often expressed via what could be called orthodox and or fundamental ways that don't include or accept an inquiring mind...

1. He was ready to throw his "old" and thus to him "useless" body off the cliff - as was directly alluded to in the story. (and with reverse extrapolation he was once attached to it when it was young and useful) 2. and in doing so he envisioned that he would get a new body per reincarnation (with attachment to the idea that he would then no longer be old and useless). 3. thus it could easily be deducted that his ego was thinking that by getting a new body that it would then be reborn fresh and useful. (and destroy being old and useless as he was seeing himselff with the help of society) Seeing these possibilities of interpretation are not based on rocket science nor a big stretch of the imagination. If one is attached to just one interpretation of the story because it is apparently from a Buddhist source - I suggest one get over it.

"So the old man was ordained, and a week later he was awakened… the young monks were amazed, and asked the Buddha how he had done it so quickly… the Buddha replied, “he had already thrown away his body”… this little story could easily be taken incorrectly and misused by a sick person. For instance the body or a body is not the problem, it is attachment to body and or an ego-personality as being the only or true identity instead of same as being tools. (also the ego thinking it will reincarnate is an additional mistake)

BKA, That is a wise saying by the Dalai Lama!

Well Kajenx I'd say all of us are going through -process- of some kind or another... (as you have alluded to) One thing I know (haha), the "mind" and or its states does not have it and is not it. Good luck

"I just want to convince you (and everyone else) that this goal is worth it, so I'm trying my best to dissolve your arguments" by K. This is obviously a variation or form of emotion, and one that is more or less or often exercised in vain. Btw, Taoism tells us: "if you have really attained wholeness, everything will flock to you" (TTC 22) Thus there is no need for a high horse.

When prana leaves things go stiff and die. but more prana per dharma means more "expansiveness" (including that of purified emotions and thoughts) as I believe CT implies, such power is not a mental exercise of doing double takes with word meanings or a nil state. A true master is radiant and luminous with prana which is steady and uplifting, thus not entangled with mixed, conflicting and or what might be called "contracting" emotions although that does not mean emotionlessness to me, it means purified emotions per fulfilled dharma along with an energetic radiating of spiritual truth that is not impinged upon by unsettled emotions from within or by intrusive emotions from without.

Agreed Silent Thunder, that is a powerful area. The "Devils Tower" area is even more so, perhaps much more so! I hope your drive home is going well.

If it were not for time then a dolphin sending out a sonar signal (aka echolocation) could not sense distances and or objects using such methods. That is only one example out of tens of thousands for various life forms...

An American Indian reflection related to same: "Upon suffering beyond suffering: the Red Nation shall rise again and it shall be a blessing for a sick world. A world filled with broken promises, selfishness and separations. A world longing for light again. I see a time of Seven Generations when all the colors of mankind will gather under the Sacred Tree of Life and the whole Earth will become one circle again. In that day, there will be those among the Lakota who will carry knowledge and understanding of unity among all living things and the young white ones will come to those of my people and ask for this wisdom. I salute the light within your eyes where the whole Universe dwells. For when you are at that center within you and I am that place within me, we shall be one." - Crazy Horse, Oglala Sioux Chief

I'd say at some point that the One will return to the Tao, just as at some point it was born of the Tao. (per the greatest cosmic cycles) "Revert" has some connotations that could be more difficult to deal with than the term "return". (with return being used in the TTC.) Also there is nothing that is not under the One except for the Tao, while the Tao is not limited to anywhere at anytime while standing still everywhere at once. (or un-manifest yet still there or connected -so to speak- in "One" to the "Ten Thousand") If one accepts that then there are no real illusions, for illusions (as various forms of energy) can only be seen as such via limited or false perceptions. The cycles turn whether we work with them or against them, thus the days of the Ten Thousand to the One are numbered, yet also re-cycle eternally. (Still there is the saying, "Fear not") Om

and I bet his gas tank is not really "empty" although it probably has some space in it...

"That the Tao is in the state of reverting. To what? To the One." by Manitou I hope you don't mind my reply below to your question? Tao is moving so fast (this only my attempted analogy) that it is standing still everywhere at once, kind of like the water flowing in a creek if looked at in a certain way is standing still. Also as stated in the TTC. Tao gave birth to "The One", thus it does not revert to the One, but only to Itself which it never really left. (at anytime or anywhere) To know of the One really takes two in oneness, whereas only the Tao knows the Tao.

Dwag, you have revealed yourself as not knowing jack, thanks.

Yes Manitou, Such applies to all realms... even to Lord Brahma as told of in Hinduism (namely the creator aspect) thus the sayings of a day or night of Lord Brahma and also the saying of a life-time of Lord Brahma which btw. is some outrageously long period of time when re-calculated to earth years! Whereas only Brahman (which can not really be named) is beyond time yet is the causeless cause of Lord Brahma.

astral time obviously exists in the astral realms, for there is movement there - meaning space which includes time - just not 24/7 earth time. As far as "illusions of reality" go who is saying that right now in time and space? Further, The "Tao gave birth to the One" and all of time and space is of the One, thus is the One an illusion? And if the One is connected to Tao then by association the Tao would also be illusion which I'd say would be way off to say ...

I've played a fair amount of chess but haven't done that well at Chess.com I see it mostly as a mental war game but if one can see and enjoy its artistic and creative aspects it should be less draining. Chess binges don't help ones game, I know that . I also think that speed chess faster 10 minutes each can easily hurt ones game.

On the question of gurus: Imo an advanced to True Guru would already know one is getting close and looking for direct contact and then they would make the choice of whether or not to start something up directly with that person as a student,... until then one more or less has to go through the process and limitations of more indirect and or generic forms of exposure and teachings since they would probably still be at the point of checking things out from their own side. (so to speak) The older and or traditional sectarian ways have many proven guru-protocols that are not normally broken unless there is an over-riding need or an emergency situation. Often in the so called "west" we do not want to go through certain protocols or steps as a student and thus may try to jump right in and end up being ignored, on the other hand and again in the cases of over-riding need or emergencies it would be very hard to understand not seeing a master jumping right in to help someone beyond such protocols! (this has happened to me several times, so I know it is a possibility) As far as getting kicked out of a school (after being accepted) such should not be possible if certain pre-discussed and agreed upon rules related to spiritual laws were not broken, for a True Guru will not do such kicking using egotistic and personality based ways, and if they did then I'd run not walk. That probably doesn't help you much in understanding the story given about Ram Dass and I can't say I know anything about that guru or the story. (one would have had to have seen such first hand to make a judgment for themselves)

Good points CT., and I may have ben stereotyping some but not completely...

this string may be in the Taoist forum but it sounds to me like the op has been coming from a Buddhist type of view since the beginning...or first post.

Well maybe some folks in the Buddhist forum could give you some more useful Buddhist type answers, which it seems you are looking for? Anyway my take and for instance is like that of the Isa Upanishad and others found in the Vedanta forum if you want to check it out? (Btw, I see a lot of common ground between Vedanta and Taoism) Btw#2, It sounds like are you referring to considering and comparing conceptual definitions, which as you must well know only go as far as that kind of "mind-frame" or frame of mind; whereas Truth and its Freedom are not abstract in the least.

Thanks for sharing so well many of the intense things you are going through, (and that in itself should be helping you in some way to get a better handle on same, does it not?) I will attempt a further reply at one of your questions about Gurus sometime later today. For now I will repeat just a couple of generic type points: 1. a True Guru can do nothing against the Spirit for if they did they would not be a True Guru. 2. nobody has a monopoly on Spirit, for 'Spirit is unto Spirit' itself. Also for all of us to go on a certain faith is needed, although not blind faith.

Who is the "I" doing all this stuff? An insightful, double-take like saying of, "Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood" may give us another handle towards who this "I" is via some word changes such as, 'Enlightenment truly realized includes emotion properly understood'... thus emotion is not negated per-se, (nor is samsara) which imo is supported by what the "four fold negation" is trying to get across. But don't take my word for it, besides I'm into Vedanta.