3bob

Ah, um, om, I don't come from a Buddhist background although I do quote some Buddhist stuff now and then, thus from the framework of certain Buddhist concepts you make many of its doctrines points, at least from some of its schools - as far as I know - which is not all that far ;-) I come more from a Vedanta/Upanishad way of descriptions and concepts plus certain experiences that are proof of same to me. Thus we may not be looking at the same maps or be in agreement on terms and meanings yet I appreciate your fun attitude and vigor in kicking things around for question and debate. (although some might say you go a little overboard at times but I'd mostly say, "what the hell and why not" since it all comes out in the wash) Btw, I see stillness as being related to potential so imo its not really a derail. The T.T.C. has the term "Standing still" but I can't look up the chapter right now. Got to run, later

All desires are driven by the one truest desire, satisfy that truest desire and the rest fall into dharmic place.

"There is no absolute stillness as there is no absolute viewpoint." If there is absolute synchronization an absolute viewpoint is attained, which may sound like an oxymoron but so be it. btw, I can see how this stuff can be fun ;-)

Another stillness example: I read "Siddhartha" by Herman Hesse, if I remember correctly Hesse gave the image of watching a river - and from one perceptive the water in the river was moving constantly yet as Siddhartha continued to observe the river his perceptions varied and at one point he saw the water as standing still.... although apparently moving. but I'd have to dig out the book to verify that since my reading of it was so long ago.

A little stillness example: Remember the old record turntables that had multiple speeds like 33, 45, and 78 rpm? Many of them had a little light that you could watch with a control to make fine adjustments for those playing speeds, if the speed was off a little the light would flicker indicating that speed synchronization was off along with the record not sounding right but once the speed adjustment was correct the light would hold still and you would get then get the correct sound while of course the record was still moving... If one does some major extrapolation on this idea/image its principle could be applied (although not exactly) to that which is moving so fast that it is synchronized and holding still everywhere at once and playing a roaring silence.

,,,and there is that saying along the lines of samsara seen correctly is nirvana, thus ends perception bound by apparent illusion.

Quoted from the Buddha: "There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned" and if that That changed then the Buddhist description of enlightenment/liberation would not be.

Spirit Self is true, in that all rest deeply and travel faster than light while standing still. The Sage smiles kindly. Om

"...You can't think your way to non-thinking - even a mantra is a fluctuation of the mind. I have always intended to seek samadhi without a seed object. I have to drop the self in order to do that..." By Songtsan We can prepare ourselves though, which it surely sounds like you are doing... and in doing so many complications will drop of their own weight - A hand reaching out in truth will be taken by a hand reaching out in response to that truth - for without that helping hand the impasse remains.

Deci, no need to mention a "bob" as a side-note to what I hear as your the half-baked and misleading plagiaristic co-opting of various schools teachings... Song, the maps are also part of Dharma teachings (as you well know) I suggest that there is no need to forget them at a relative before-or-after which is seemingly contradictory to timelessness in enlightenment, including what the Buddha described as "beyond the beyond". Btw I'm not a Buddhist but to me all his teachings support that fact. (thus there is no need to destroy a raft, a mind or various tools in one's crossing the river, there is only the need to set them down at the bank of river until one needs to pick them back up for dharmic purposes) Om

there is a time when such battles must be fought and overcome and such gazes made without blinking... then one can no longer fall to, be bound by, or dwell in their lower self.

I'm no expert on the subject but it is important to remember that demons (or whatever name one uses) are cutting themselves off from the life force, thus they end up only having what they can steal and twist-up - for in negativity a downward spiral of more and more energy needs to be stolen and twisted-up, but at some point and by a higher law when there is nothing left that is prone to being stolen or devoured then a final self-destructive implosion undoes them.

A lotus flower would be a fool to belittle mud.

To some degree perhaps, although such an apparent individual would no longer be just an individual having just personal choices... since their condition or state would be integrated with purity of spiritual force - a force that would be the power behind (so to speak) and paramount in bringing about what could be called actions. Thus one does not approach such a Being willy-nilly and expect to be immune from spirit taking some sort of action, subtle or not so subtle.

"...Just kicking around ideas - haven't quite worked it out yet..." "...This actually applies very well to the original topic of the thread. I think that most of us believe that negative attacks cannot hurt one who lives outside of such karmic wheels. That the hurt is actually caused by reaction to the action coming from the attacker. At least this is what I believe. So if one is unaffected by karma, living in true reality, one chooses without there being a mind that chooses (wu wei? actionless action, chooserless choosing?) then one is not caught up in the effects of participating in the inherent negativity that results from reacting to negativity. Think about the mirror effect." quotes from Songtsan Indeed, and if the mirror is unbreakable and impervious to attack any would be a fool and suffer instantly in trying to attack it since the attack would reflect full force back to them... (further what if the mirror was even more than a pure reflective mirror, what if it had an innate intelligence, wisdom and power that also acted in perpetual action that was not a reaction? Then one might suffer even more by attacking it)

I tend to believe (99.99%) that as long as there is a body of some type in some realm then same would be indicative that some level of karma is still in play, although such could be very greatly reduced! Then again and for instance one can come across teachings that speak of a state of Being that maintains and inter-acts with various realms along with having a physical body yet also simultaneously maintaining (without a break for methods) the deepest and karma free Samadhi 24/7 x 365 days a year. For 99.99% of us that is getting way ahead of the game! For instance last night me and the wife had a big shouting match about getting the right shower curtains...

That can be a hard one... I'd say that a big part of the equation (so to speak) involves one's personal dharma... for instance if one is of or has warrior dharma. The Bhagavad Gita is one source that speaks of this situation. As you seem to imply to me such a situation could easily fall into some type of manipulation or unfortunate complication thus increase karmas!

Deci, As for your profound pretentiousness above, it just goes to show how sick a puppy a puppy can get.

Agreed Jeff, and what a gentleman you are.

If one is arrogant enough Dharma is not in much effect with same... which also happens to be very convenient for same. "Zen" is not complex, only complex talk of it is so, Good fortune Songtsan

Sounds like Mr. O. that you have not named?

"...Don't ever think that when you get to be like me, it will be so different than how it is being like you right now..." By Deci If I ever think of posting pompous use of jargon like Deci, someone out there who is not so different than me right now please knock me up the side of my head... and thanks ahead of time for your natural and "subtle operation".

How many here have experienced "God" as a sovereign Being? How many here believe in God as a sovereign Being? How many wonder why God is not acting as a sovereign Being when it comes to mankind on Earth? (going by all or many indications) Also, is a sovereign God 100% responsible and accountable for his creation(s), just as we are 100% responsible and accountable for our karma? (although we do get help with it)

I'm pretty much with Jeff's interpretations when it comes to angels of any type. ... and of course that Buddhist related saying means eliminate or do not be attached to your concept of a Buddha since that concept is not the whole enchilada or could even be bad guacamole.

There is a lot of mystic type material related to the sun in many religions and ways! The American Indians have what is called going with or walking with the sun as in the clockwise direction which is the correct way to do so, where-as going counter-clockwise may not be so good. (?) Btw, the proper way to set up a tipi is to walk the main rope around the poles in a clockwise direction, also many ceremonies are done in a clock-wise direction on purpose. Hindus have a great deal of spiritual meanings related to the sun! (whereas going to moon so to speak is going to more incarnations)