3bob

I love "new agers" who know how to make peace with dive bombing mosquitoes and cockroaches who crawl up your legs or on your face at night... I also love horny toads who eat sand puppies, don't ever want to step barefoot on a sand puppy. (sand puppy is a sweet name for a monster sci-fi looking bug) and anyone who is uncomfortable with a John Doe or a plain Jane hasn't seen anything yet so I suggest getting the hell off it...

how fortunate for you since all of that has potential transmutation

better to drink one cup of water than read a thousand books about oceans of it

If you have a Buddhist inclination and want to "mull it over" then take it to the Buddhist forum or maybe to the general forum... that would be the Right thing to do imo.

yabyum24, I'm not qualified to explain it, although one might say something like Spirit unto Spirit, To be under a Self realized teachers guidance is the method spoken of and that is not done on a wide open public website; still and in the meantime one can study the Upanishads if that has not already been done....

The Self is not found in or of the mind, thus tools of the mind can not reach It or nail it down. The Self chooses the Self, no other forms of power can touch it.

I would think and hope that qualified teachers might sometimes look around here a bit and drop hints or lead information, other than that this sure in the heck is not a "school" format, it's often more like a public park in NY city where things can go well or not so well. If one wants something private and particular then pointers to same might be found here but I don't expect more.

R.F., That sounds pretty much like "par for course" from you. Anyway If the OP is asking questions in the Vedanta forum about "Immortal Atman" in relation to or in a context that includes Paramasiva then to me that does not imply a post about Buddhism or just generic identity. Of course if the OP wants to set me straight then I'm open to same, are you?

Thanks R.F., but I'd suggest one finding a Sat Guru among the schools of Shaivism., I also wonder why you are posting in a Vedanta sub-forum considering you have mostly shown the need of having your own sub-forum as a place for your irrefutable material? Until I know otherwise I can only assume the OP posted here to hear the Vedanta take on Atman, it's not that big of a biggy to me that you posted some material on the Buddhist take but I would suggest that the OP and any Buddhists or Buddhist takes he wants to further pursue or may be interested in be made in a Buddhist sub-forum or perhaps on the "general" forum. Om

Merry Christmas, peace on earth and goodwill to mankind!

I find the teachings related Lord Siva as Lord Nataraja as an excellent and profound way to get a handle (so to speak) on many of the aspects related to many of the important meanings along these lines...

Vedanta is distilled so to speak in the Upanishads, I suggest the study of the major ones to help answer your questions about doctrine and meanings that you have as a basis, after which the doctrines of various and wide ranging Hindu sects and sub-sects may be considered... also if reading just one Upanishad to begin with the 'Chandogya' goes over a very great deal of ground!! Om

"Only Nothing can enter into no space" TTC. 43 although smelling the roses on the way is part of the game...

Happy Eureka !!! MH

(just curious about what will pop out of the bushes? -pop away if you will...)

re-chewing somebody else's chewing's is not going to do it....

Dawei, Full agreement on or with the word usage of "transform". Further, the transformation/flow works both ways as in "going far" and in the "return". (yet in also knowing Itself as "standing still" everywhere at once!) similar in meaning to Holy Om

MH, do you mean Lao Tzu had a better or different variation along the lines of if I strive with none none can blame me?

Bob has a few bobbers to go with the hooks but if the hooks are empty the bobbers will be a distraction from the truth. (something deci might disect if her corset has loosened any)

alwayson, (aka a R. fan) you gave a good quote, although imo famous Mr. N. is also beating around the bush in way - and if one beats around the bush then one should not be surprised by anything that pops out...

what is good for the goose is good for the gander...? (where in the heck did that saying come from?) besides "the ducks never flew away".

The Farewell And now it was evening. And Almitra the seeress said, "Blessed be this day and this place and your spirit that has spoken." And he answered, Was it I who spoke? Was I not also a listener? Then he descended the steps of the Temple and all the people followed him. And he reached his ship and stood upon the deck. And facing the people again, he raised his voice and said: People of Orphalese, the wind bids me leave you. Less hasty am I than the wind, yet I must go. We wanderers, ever seeking the lonelier way, begin no day where we have ended another day; and no sunrise finds us where sunset left us. Even while the earth sleeps we travel. We are the seeds of the tenacious plant, and it is in our ripeness and our fullness of heart that we are given to the wind and are scattered. Brief were my days among you, and briefer still the words I have spoken. But should my voice fade in your ears, and my love vanish in your memory, then I will come again, And with a richer heart and lips more yielding to the spirit will I speak. Yea, I shall return with the tide, And though death may hide me, and the greater silence enfold me, yet again will I seek your understanding. And not in vain will I seek. If aught I have said is truth, that truth shall reveal itself in a clearer voice, and in words more kin to your thoughts. I go with the wind, people of Orphalese, but not down into emptiness; And if this day is not a fulfillment of your needs and my love, then let it be a promise till another day. Know therefore, that from the greater silence I shall return. The mist that drifts away at dawn, leaving but dew in the fields, shall rise and gather into a cloud and then fall down in rain. And not unlike the mist have I been. In the stillness of the night I have walked in your streets, and my spirit has entered your houses, And your heart-beats were in my heart, and your breath was upon my face, and I knew you all. Ay, I knew your joy and your pain, and in your sleep your dreams were my dreams. And oftentimes I was among you a lake among the mountains. I mirrored the summits in you and the bending slopes, and even the passing flocks of your thoughts and your desires. And to my silence came the laughter of your children in streams, and the longing of your youths in rivers. And when they reached my depth the streams and the rivers ceased not yet to sing. But sweeter still than laughter and greater than longing came to me. It was boundless in you; The vast man in whom you are all but cells and sinews; He in whose chant all your singing is but a soundless throbbing. It is in the vast man that you are vast, And in beholding him that I beheld you and loved you. For what distances can love reach that are not in that vast sphere? What visions, what expectations and what presumptions can outsoar that flight? Like a giant oak tree covered with apple blossoms is the vast man in you. His mind binds you to the earth, his fragrance lifts you into space, and in his durability you are deathless. You have been told that, even like a chain, you are as weak as your weakest link. This is but half the truth. You are also as strong as your strongest link. To measure you by your smallest deed is to reckon the power of ocean by the frailty of its foam. To judge you by your failures is to cast blame upon the seasons for their inconsistency. Ay, you are like an ocean, And though heavy-grounded ships await the tide upon your shores, yet, even like an ocean, you cannot hasten your tides. And like the seasons you are also, And though in your winter you deny your spring, Yet spring, reposing within you, smiles in her drowsiness and is not offended. Think not I say these things in order that you may say the one to the other, "He praised us well. He saw but the good in us." I only speak to you in words of that which you yourselves know in thought. And what is word knowledge but a shadow of wordless knowledge? Your thoughts and my words are waves from a sealed memory that keeps records of our yesterdays, And of the ancient days when the earth knew not us nor herself, And of nights when earth was upwrought with confusion, Wise men have come to you to give you of their wisdom. I came to take of your wisdom: And behold I have found that which is greater than wisdom. It is a flame spirit in you ever gathering more of itself, While you, heedless of its expansion, bewail the withering of your days. It is life in quest of life in bodies that fear the grave. There are no graves here. These mountains and plains are a cradle and a stepping-stone. Whenever you pass by the field where you have laid your ancestors look well thereupon, and you shall see yourselves and your children dancing hand in hand. Verily you often make merry without knowing. Others have come to you to whom for golden promises made unto your faith you have given but riches and power and glory. Less than a promise have I given, and yet more generous have you been to me. You have given me deeper thirsting after life. Surely there is no greater gift to a man than that which turns all his aims into parching lips and all life into a fountain. And in this lies my honour and my reward, - That whenever I come to the fountain to drink I find the living water itself thirsty; And it drinks me while I drink it. Some of you have deemed me proud and over-shy to receive gifts. To proud indeed am I to receive wages, but not gifts. And though I have eaten berries among the hill when you would have had me sit at your board, And slept in the portico of the temple where you would gladly have sheltered me, Yet was it not your loving mindfulness of my days and my nights that made food sweet to my mouth and girdled my sleep with visions? For this I bless you most: You give much and know not that you give at all. Verily the kindness that gazes upon itself in a mirror turns to stone, And a good deed that calls itself by tender names becomes the parent to a curse. And some of you have called me aloof, and drunk with my own aloneness, And you have said, "He holds council with the trees of the forest, but not with men. He sits alone on hill-tops and looks down upon our city." True it is that I have climbed the hills and walked in remote places. How could I have seen you save from a great height or a great distance? How can one be indeed near unless he be far? And others among you called unto me, not in words, and they said, Stranger, stranger, lover of unreachable heights, why dwell you among the summits where eagles build their nests? Why seek you the unattainable? What storms would you trap in your net, And what vaporous birds do you hunt in the sky? Come and be one of us. Descend and appease your hunger with our bread and quench your thirst with our wine." In the solitude of their souls they said these things; But were their solitude deeper they would have known that I sought but the secret of your joy and your pain, And I hunted only your larger selves that walk the sky. But the hunter was also the hunted: For many of my arrows left my bow only to seek my own breast. And the flier was also the creeper; For when my wings were spread in the sun their shadow upon the earth was a turtle. And I the believer was also the doubter; For often have I put my finger in my own wound that I might have the greater belief in you and the greater knowledge of you. And it is with this belief and this knowledge that I say, You are not enclosed within your bodies, nor confined to houses or fields. That which is you dwells above the mountain and roves with the wind. It is not a thing that crawls into the sun for warmth or digs holes into darkness for safety, But a thing free, a spirit that envelops the earth and moves in the ether. If this be vague words, then seek not to clear them. Vague and nebulous is the beginning of all things, but not their end, And I fain would have you remember me as a beginning. Life, and all that lives, is conceived in the mist and not in the crystal. And who knows but a crystal is mist in decay? This would I have you remember in remembering me: That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined. Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones? And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt that building your city and fashioned all there is in it? Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else, And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound. But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well. The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it, And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it. And you shall see And you shall hear. Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf. For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things, And you shall bless darkness as you would bless light. After saying these things he looked about him, and he saw the pilot of his ship standing by the helm and gazing now at the full sails and now at the distance. And he said: Patient, over-patient, is the captain of my ship. The wind blows, and restless are the sails; Even the rudder begs direction; Yet quietly my captain awaits my silence. And these my mariners, who have heard the choir of the greater sea, they too have heard me patiently. Now they shall wait no longer. I am ready. The stream has reached the sea, and once more the great mother holds her son against her breast. Fare you well, people of Orphalese. This day has ended. It is closing upon us even as the water-lily upon its own tomorrow. What was given us here we shall keep, And if it suffices not, then again must we come together and together stretch our hands unto the giver. Forget not that I shall come back to you. A little while, and my longing shall gather dust and foam for another body. A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me. Farewell to you and the youth I have spent with you. It was but yesterday we met in a dream. You have sung to me in my aloneness, and I of your longings have built a tower in the sky. But now our sleep has fled and our dream is over, and it is no longer dawn. The noontide is upon us and our half waking has turned to fuller day, and we must part. If in the twilight of memory we should meet once more, we shall speak again together and you shall sing to me a deeper song. And if our hands should meet in another dream, we shall build another tower in the sky. So saying he made a signal to the seamen, and straightaway they weighed anchor and cast the ship loose from its moorings, and they moved eastward. And a cry came from the people as from a single heart, and it rose the dusk and was carried out over the sea like a great trumpeting. Only Almitra was silent, gazing after the ship until it had vanished into the mist. And when all the people were dispersed she still stood alone upon the sea-wall, remembering in her heart his saying, A little while, a moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me."

Excerpt from http://www.henrybolduc.com/gibran2.html Gibran and Channeling "As time went on, Gibran evolved into a higher realm from which he channeled many of his works. He was able to enter a kind of trance and would often say, "Forgive me. So much of the time I am not here". Frequently he was observed when this silence descended upon him and energy could be felt in the room. In Boston Kahlil told Mary (and her friend Charlotte) about his experiments with trance work. Previously he had written about these trance experiences: "All my life, from time to time, just as I go to sleep I have felt as if I were rising. I have been conscious of two selves - of me and me. I have never tried to separate these two personalities until very recently. I often think out things in bed, just before I go to sleep - some of my best things come that way." He described these strange sensations of "rising out of myself" seeing his own "very pale" image, of hearing himself speak, but not remembering - "I don't know what I said". Mary and Charlotte insisted on observing this experience, so Gibran put himself into trance and Mary questioned him. He experienced seeing a "round light" and "hearing music", but when he "came back", Charlotte advised him not to repeat it. Fortunately, his friend's fear of things unknown did not end his experiments with what is now called trance-channeling. He persisted and opened himself to the higher spiritual realms from which his book, Jesus, the Son of Man, was channeled in its entirety. In her book, Barbara Young tells how Gibran had always planned to write a book about Jesus - perhaps in about five years. But without warning, on the 12th of November, 1926, came a moment that would live forever in her memory. Gibran had been pacing back and forth, restlessly working on a different book. Suddenly, he stopped, She describes a strange dark look coming over his face. This curious transformation, she knew from experience fortold some swift and startling message. The vibration of the room changed, and she reached for her notebook. Kahlil bent his head and his face became old and piteous. The voice of a disconsolate being came through. It was definitely not Gibran's voice. The pain and despair shot through Barbara "like a rapier", she said. The voice began to speak: "It was fifty years ago tonight - the memory is like a scorpion coiled around my heart! It is like a cup more bitter than wormwood..." The voice, or rather the enitity, continued speaking, and then repeated the words, Barbara intended to write down the spoken words, but could not. She said that almost as suddenly as Kahlil had become this alien, he returned to himself. "Do you know who I was?" he asked. "No", she answered. "I was Judas. Poor Judas." That very night he began writing the book about Jesus. Barbra carefully states that he was more living the book than just writing. He channeled the words of 77 people who had shared their experiences with Jesus. Each of the 77 characters, friends and foe alike, came alive again in his New York City studio that he called "The Hermitage". Each voice spoke through his lips, and many times the exhaustion at the end of the channeling was so complete as to be frightening. As he did this amazing work, Barbara Young said, "A radiance would shine upon his countenance. His great soul was laid bare." And so was born the beautiful book, Jesus, the Son of Man, His Words and His Deeds as Told and Recorded by Those Who Knew Him."

"God" does not exactly need to be given His due for his dues are exactingly made to come to terms via karma... (unless mitigated through the highest law which is the un-measureable reach, power and wisdom of Grace ) thus it does not really matter if one believes in God or not in any way, shape or form (or from any of the multitudes of various religious names or traditions per-se) since karma as an unbreakable universal law for all beings, in all realms, at all times is in effect if any dues are owed. (why - because karma is a "thing", maybe not like we normally think of things but still so) Om

Another take: Excerpt from K.G. "That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined. Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones? And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt that building your city and fashioned all there is in it? Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else, And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound. But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well. The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it, And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it. And you shall see And you shall hear. Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf. For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things, And you shall bless darkness as you would bless light..." :high-lights by me