3bob

with all the heavy duty talk that sometimes goes on I thought a little chuckle would be ok, although I'm not sure why the historic Buddha didn't actually start his summation(s) with the statement the op submitted since such is the bottom line and not suffering.

Via a Dr. Phil talk show?

Kansas doesn't know jack,

If rebirth is forced per karma then one is not yet completely free. (of Lord Yama's rule) But when death dies one is truly free...

Importance of Goddess in Buddhism: "In Buddhist art, this crucial moment in the Buddha’s quest for liberation from saṃsāra is often depicted by means of the Bhūmisparśa Mudrā. The Bhūmisparśa Mudrā represents the Buddha in a specific meditation posture, sitting cross-legged in full lotus posture with his right hand across his right leg. Hence, the word ‘mudrā’ refers to a specific hand gesture. The Buddha thus reaches his hand to touch the earth. Through this symbolic gesture he calls upon the Earth Goddess (Dharaṇī, i.e. Vasudhara) to testify as a witness of the great merit and virtue the bodhisattva has collected throughout his past lives. The Earth Goddess acknowledges the bodhisattva‘s attainment of the ten perfections, after which she twists her long and wet hair, thereby washing away the tenth and final army of Māra. With Māra and his legions being defeated, the Buddha thus attained full enlightenment". I'm not a Buddhist but I see the meaning of the Goddess involvement described above as pointing to some important common ground among various paths. (regardless of all the long and dubious arguments that -edit- sometimes go on here) Om

no-thing is not nothing and that no-thing can not be known by some-thing thus some-thing trying to pin down no-thing is futile except in realizing such futility after which there is nothing to do except to surrender its limitations and return. I believe such is pointed to in chapter 43 of the TTC with, "Only Nothing can enter (or I'd also use the term return) into no space" a return to that which it ultimately or never really left although it did so in a way via the "mysteries".

Seeker of Tao, That sounds cool but for myself I wouldn't want to put words in the historic Buddhas mouth to such an extent... via what sounds like a Taoist type correlation.

What what? (I did a little edit)

Blessings and best wishes to you also!

That is kind of a stretch imo Jetsun, since the historic Buddha taught "right speech" instead of "imaginary" acts of criticism.

I take the "4th way" materials and Mr. G. with multiple grains of salt. I stay far away from certain "4th way" cults that have arisen and ime are opposite to the original intentions of the "fragments of an unknown teaching". Was Mr. G. and alcoholic and womanizer, yes according certain eye-witness accounts thus he had his own "monsters" to deal with besides pointing out those of others... None-the-less I greatly appreciate parts of the 4th way materials and related work.

According to doctrine the first jhana exists, and so does the 8th and beyond, further when a true Being reaches the 8th or beyond he does come back later and deny the 1st. (The Vedic related gurus who helped the historic Buddha reach the 8th jhana did not, and neither did the historic Buddha) .

"Having said all this I still think its useful to study different ways - it makes you more flexible and open - but in the end you have to go with that which draws you most and to which you have the most connection". by Apech Thanks for the feedback, I argee 100% with your last sentence... not so much with the second sentence.

A quote from Wikipedia: (I'm not exactly getting into discussion here since I probably won't get involved very much, just sharing some info for anyone else who wants to discuss or take it from here... ) Cosmic Laws "Gurdjieff focused on two main cosmic laws, the Law of Three and the Law of Seven. The Law of Seven is described by Gurdjieff as "the first fundamental cosmic law". This law is used to explain processes. The basic use of the law of seven is to explain why nothing in nature and in life constantly occurs in a straight line, that is to say that there are always ups and downs in life which occur lawfully. Examples of this can be noticed in athletic performances, where a high ranked athlete always has periodic downfalls, as well as in nearly all graphs that plot topics that occur over time, such as the economic graphs, population graphs, death-rate graphs and so on. All show parabolic periods that keep rising and falling. Gurdjieff claimed that since these periods occur lawfully based on the law of seven that it is possible to keep a process in a straight line if the necessary shocks were introduced at the right time. A piano keyboard is an example of the law of seven, as the seven notes of the major scale correspond exactly to it. The Law of Three is described by Gurdjieff as "the second fundamental cosmic law". This law states that every whole phenomenon is composed of three separate sources, which are Active, Passive and Reconciling or Neutral. This law applies to everything in the universe and humanity, as well as all the structures and processes. The Three Centers in a human, which Gurdjieff said were the Intellectual Centre, the Emotional Centre and the Moving Centre, are an expression of the law of three. Gurdjieff taught his students to think of the law of three forces as essential to transforming the energy of the human being. The process of transformation requires the three actions of affirmation, denial and reconciliation. How the Law of Seven and Law of Three function together is said to be illustrated on the Fourth Way Enneagram, a nine-pointed symbol which is the central glyph of Gurdjieff's system. Use of symbols In his explanations Gurdjieff often used different symbols such as the Enneagram and the Ray of Creation. Gurdjieff said that "the enneagram is a universal symbol. All knowledge can be included in the enneagram and with the help of the enneagram it can be interpreted ... A man may be quite alone in the desert and he can trace the enneagram in the sand and in it read the eternal laws of the universe. And every time he can learn something new, something he did not know before."[27] The ray of creation is a diagram which represents the Earth's place in the Universe. The diagram has eight levels, each corresponding to Gurdjieff's laws of octaves. Through the elaboration of the law of octaves and the meaning of the enneagram, Gurdjieff offered his students alternative means of conceptualizing the world and their place in it."

Ah ha, Jetsun, good quotes.

one example related to the law of seven is how something (such as an aim undertaken by people) starts out well and with good intentions but can end up going downhill, even to the point of opposite results as first envisioned!

"I agree with you - although if we are careful comparisons can be made." by Apech Fair enough, and I'd be interested in hearing how far you and other people think such comparing should go? (something I'm not sure about myself)

Apech, I can't make that correlation... or I'm not going to try since doing so is part of the point I'm trying bring out - namely that these different paths may have some common ground but they can't really be rolled into one. (although if one says up front that they are trying to roll them into one and name it so (such as: The New Christian/Buddhist mixture Church) without taking the names and texts of established traditions as their own then that is different to me compared to so much of the dubious co-opting of various traditions that is taking place.

They relate to a very large amount of material! You'll have to decide for yourself about their value to you, I'm not going into any further thread wise.

From "fragments of an unknown teaching" or "In Search of the Miraculous", by P.D. Ouspensky, thus not Mr. G. per-se being that he to was a messenger. Use caution with all the stuff that has spun off of the "4th way" with some of it being quite dubious or worse as is the case with many such materials that often get caught up in unfortunate personality and ego dramas. - But the "law of three" and "the law of seven" are of the best explanations I've come across -

Well without three there is no creation taking place, the "law of three" (and law of seven) mentioned in 4th way materials is another term for same.

Brahman (thus not Lord Brahma) with the words "neti, neti" as sometimes being used. Whereas-as Lord Brahma= creator, or a major aspect along with Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva all working in time and space, thus having no power over Brahman. (btw, in some schools Shiva = Brahman) "three in one" is of all time and space. Buddhism is much farther away in comparison between major concepts with Christianity.

Ime "Three in one" (Trinity) or "two in one" aspects are not the same as the core point of "eastern type" paths such as "Vedanta" or "Buddhist" non-duality - no matter how much we might like them to be so or how much interesting and well versed correlating one might do. The "light worlds" and "light transmissions" are not non-dual, they may be of super refined heavenly worlds or of "oneness" type states but they are still not truly non-dual by their very nature. To talk about or echo about non-duality takes coming back to duality... (aka problematic) Yes, I've studied dozens of teachings like those being quoted here for around 40 years and see such as making a stretch, a stretch that Jesus himself did not teach. (via light transmissions or in any other way) He remains a Golden-White light Being and torch in the worlds of light along with a creator God in cosmic time... nothing at all wrong with that but such is not Brahman or the Self beyond attributes (as Vedanta says in various ways) or beyond aggregates (as Buddhism says in various ways). Btw, many of us have seen the horrible arguments and divisions among people trying to make correlations between Vedanta and Buddhism, so that is another super mess in itself! (and I try to let it be) So "What is a soul to do" find out and prove out for itself. Edit: aggregates

Since when did Christ in principle or Christ in Jesus go beyond duality, even the refined duality of two in one? (along with being at the "right hand of God")

Anyway here is a link below on the jhanas mostly from the Buddhist perspective, although there is much common ground here with other paths or ways! (which is an important sub-point imo) http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=9_Jhanas#The_Ninth_Jhana:_Cessation