3bob

The catch is that the potential for hell is directly related to the potential for enlightenment.. Thus the higher one gets the farther they can fall, much further than a regular Joe or a plain Jane. (that is until ego, after serving it purpose, dies once and for all)

it is hard to get away from a good football game...lol

escape velocity is something else to think about...

Yet the Buddha and the god talked about this subject, (post Buddha's enlightenment) and afterwards the Buddha decided not to check out of this world or hide out in the forest, seeing that some beings had little dust in their eyes and needed help - meaning to me beings tending towards heavenly states.

Problem is that will never happen in the future, neither for someone else or you. (with enlightenment only being now)

...although MH we are also talking about the potential of unlimited (aka full enlightenment)

ime pure voice is also an empowerment and can also touch someone, so to speak. (whether simple or not, since we don't want to get far-out spooky since purity is also related to simplicity)

"but stems from the manifestation in pure vision of a realized being." - CNN I don't see a difference in quality between manifestation in pure vision or what could be called pure voice (oral), since both would be based on and come from the same truth. BTW, Alwayson, everything comes back to V for you, how nice but your harping on V here is not nice or kosher, thus I suggest you start your own V string and then see who shows up and wants to pro and con with you about V to your hearts content.

'heaven" comes before and is also connected to enlightenment, I'd say it is not a matter of concern or non-concern, it is more the matter of freedom in either and the working out and fulfillment of Spirit.

Since I'm not a Buddhist teacher (obviously) I can only speculate to whatever degree... saying that I feel that the key meaning is in the very last sentence that was quoted, in other words what passed away (using and per the "four fold negation") and what did not? (otherwise imo everything the historic Buddha did would have been in vain)

"Or, said another way... you "realize" that meditation and normal daily activities are really the same thing". Jeff, what you said above isn't quite what I was trying to get at although it sounds along similar lines. I was trying to allude to the connections between the various Jhanas (as more or less described) and also the connection between the "beyond" and the Jhanas... Thus because of such connections one can not really separate one of them out as unimportant or as illusion.

Imo it doesn't matter what one says or how many times they say it, (or quote it) unless they at least learn a little bit of what "Right Speech" means or is pointing to, regardless of what path they are on (namely some form Buddhism or something else) otherwise their words are empty in the western sense.

I'm not a Buddhist but here is something Buddhist doctrine has to say on the subject of Jhanas: How the Blessed One Passed into Nibbana"9. And the Blessed One entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And rising out of the fourth jhana, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. And rising out of the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he attained to the cessation of perception and feeling. 10. And the Venerable Ananda spoke to the Venerable Anuruddha, saying: "Venerable Anuruddha, the Blessed One has passed away." "No, friend Ananda, the Blessed One has not passed away. He has entered the state of the cessation of perception and feeling." 11. Then the Blessed One, rising from the cessation of perception and feeling, entered the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, he entered the sphere of nothingness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of nothingness, he entered the sphere of infinite consciousness. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness, he entered the sphere of infinite space. Rising from the attainment of the sphere of infinite space, he entered the fourth jhana. Rising from the fourth jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the first jhana. Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away". Thus if one is a Buddhist it would seem these are rather important since the Founder spent his last moments involved with same.

"Vedic related' is what I said, in the sense of or tracing back relationships to some of the points below: (but I'm not a historic expert nor do I have clairvoyant memories of that time (who does?) it was a long time ago... "Modern Hinduism can be regarded as a combination of Vedic and Shramana traditions as it is substantially influenced by both traditions. Among the Astika schools of Hinduism, Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga are early and very important philosophies that have influenced and been influenced by the Sramana philosophy, with their origins in the Indus Valley period of about 3000-2000 BCE. Yoga follows the Samkhya philosophy of liberating oneself from the grip of Prakriti (nature) through individual effort. Elaborate processes are outlined in Yoga to achieve individual liberation through breathing techniques (Pranayama), physical postures (Asanas) and meditations (Dhyana). Patanjali's Yoga sutra is one product (school) of this philosophy. Other Yogic schools and the Tantra traditions are also important derivatives and branches of the Sramana practices".

...or where does illusion end (a favorite word) and reality begin? (another favorite word)

Jeff, What are the ramifications and extrapolations in your understanding or opinion?

how much longer the incredibly heavy and gigantic back-log of monstrous evil karma will or can be held back without all hell breaking loose is hard to say, but we will all pay dearly someday - no place is safe except in true spirit.

"There is only one reality in form, which is the pure consciousness which is conscious of form, and this reality is what realizes itself as formless, timeless, spaceless." Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami

well I agree with that although I think the "continues" part is limited to the turning of a cosmic cycle of creation or a very, very long time! (after which created duality is reabsorbed from which it came)

(Jeff hope you don't mind but I'd add that it's really the power behind the Being that is doing everything since a true master has already surrendered to same, although the master does take the raw edge off of the million volts /amps and more or less humanizes it flow as needed - so to speak)

It seems some people would also be upset because we now have "eternal" posts...

Hello Cat, Thanks for the feedback and further explained and personal points!

Ok Jeff, and I don't mean to side-track or put a damper on your post or in this sub-forum, thus the principle I was getting at could be said to apply universally when it comes to responsibility.

I didn't think post 13 would get much response since its not neato sounding, it's just the hard facts related to, "For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required" Another spin-off: "be careful what you ask for, you might get it"

so when in the heck is this editing limit going to be removed? (I haven't read all the posts related to the issue)