3bob

the power that can be named is not the eternal power, thus of the mental realm which can be named - even if such is a mental power beyond our particular concept of normal, natural or whatever label one prefers or interprets and nails down states of mind with...

stone has "natural abilities", depending on definiton and or perspective

Mostly agreed Manitou, although I see a relatively healthy ego as being more of or used as a stepping stone instead of a stumbling block. Om

My take, An "exceptional" refinement of what could be called the normal senses and their related powers is or can be a very fortunate and healthy thing... whereas what could be called "supernatural powers" are like the next octave up and can not be seen or heard even by the exceptional refinement of what could be called the normal or common human senses or powers... thus imo denial or belief in such is moot and could also become unfortunate if one fixates either way on same without one having 1st hand experience of their own to go by. If you will (?) Tao is law and that law is divine, in this instance of meaning equating to the non-corruptible. Btw, certain levels or octaves of supernatural powers (being that are more than one) can be corrupted - but not past the point where doing so would instantly incinerate such an attempt and or the attemptee.

ok FmAm but no need for the old string of posts which as far as I'm concerned can go back to the general forum. I'm about 99% fed up with Buddhism/Hinduism type arguments, subtle or not so subtle.

http://www.himavanti.org/en/c/himavanti-1/shiva-the-founder-and-owner-of-all-yoga-and-tantra (small excerpt) "Shiva (śiva, ziva) aka Mahadeva, Yogeshvara, Bholenath or Nataraja; in Sanskrit: शिव Śiva, meaning "auspicious one" is a major Vedic, Himalayan and Hindu deity, and is the destroyer of evil or transformer among the Trimurti, the Hindu Trinity of the primary aspects of the divine. Shiva is a yogi who has notice of everything that happens in the world and is the main aspect of life. Yet one with great power, he lives a life of a sage at Mount Kailasa. In the Shaiva tradition of Hinduism, Shiva is seen as the Supreme God and has five important works: creator, preserver, destroyer, concealer, and revealer (to bless). In the Smarta tradition, he is regarded as one of the five primary forms of God."

The word no-thing is closer to the right meaning... and no-thing me and you surely do exist as a heartfelt joy that springs forth irresistably! (and if such were not so we would not even be here pondering same on whatever level we have attained so far)

a more well rounded wiki pick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaivism

There is a or the true "I" that has none of these doubts or conflicts, an atom or Atman of Spirit knows itself as same - thus FREE...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism "Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[1] In panentheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself. In the second formulation, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God,[1] like in the concept of Tzimtzum. Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[2][3]Hasidic Judaism merges the elite ideal of nullification to paradoxical transcendent Divine Panentheism, through intellectual articulation of inner dimensions of Kabbalah, with the populist emphasis on the panentheistic Divine immanence in everything and deeds of kindness..."

Manitou, Near the beginning of the quote in post 4 is the sentence, "the Divine being beyond all yet within all" alludes to me that which is different from saying "all is one". (I do see an unbreakable connection between the "all" which is knowable and the "beyond" which is unknowable -- meaning that the tools (so to speak) that are used to know the "all" do not work to know the "beyond", thus that unknowable or "beyond" is only known by the unknown or by itself)

"There the eye goes not, nor words, nor mind. We know not. We cannot understand how He can be explained. He is above the known, and He is above the unknown (Sama Veda, Kena U. 1.3)."

Any mental knowledge that can be gained can also be lost...(granted it has a time, place and a great many uses) but Lord Shiva shares knowledge working through Sat Guru that is beyond mental, thus priceless - never to be bought, sold or sullied. Om

Hi Manitou, Sorry I'm late getting back here, just got off 3-12 hr shifts of work in three days (not counting another 8 hrs for travel) so my mind is a little rummy right now... thus I better wait before trying to make an alert and useful comment .

organic brown rice and veggies topped off with a Kit Kat bar

Regards Dwai, Seth, Alwayson and those spending some time here... #!

by Timothy Conway, Ph.D., 2006 "...The actual panentheist view—the Divine One’s transcendence and immanence, the Divine being beyond all yet within all—was being promoted many centuries earlier, by religious mystics in diverse traditions, going all the way back to the oldest Hindu Upanishads of 2800 years ago, the Brihadâranyaka and Chândogya Upanishads. In the West, beyond pioneering Hellenist panentheist figures like Plotinus (c205-70 CE) and his followers, the neo-Platonists, we find a robust Christian panentheism in the views of the daring 9th-century Irish Catholic theologian at the Carolingian court in France, John Scottus Eriugena (c800-877), head of the Palatine Academy, “the greatest mind of the entire Christian middle ages,” and a huge influence on Meister Eckhart and others. Early Muslim Sûfî mystics like Bâyazîd Bistâmî and Mansur al-Hallâj, let alone later figures like Ibn Arabî and Jalâluddîn Rûmî, clearly espouse a panentheist view of Allâh. Maimonides and Jewish Kabbalah mystics (e.g., Moses Cordovero and Isaac Luria) and later eastern European Hasidim sages (the Ba’al Shem Tov Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer [1700-60] and his followers) were all panentheists. (These western religious figures and numerous others—most of them veritable panentheists—are profiled in the “Religion & Spirituality” section of this website.) Alternate versions of panentheism have aired in the 20th and 21st centuries, some more influenced and, I would say, “undermined,” by Process Theology, which tends to deny or underemphasize Divine transcendence, omniscience and omnipotence. Scientists, cosmologists, philosophers and theologians in the West have recently become enamored with panentheism. Authors exploring facets of panentheism and its import are Arthur Peacocke and Philip Clayton (see their edited anthology, In Whom We Live, Move and Have Our Being: Panentheistic Reflections on God’s Presence in a Scientific World, Wm. Eerdman’s, 2004), Jay McDaniel, David Ray Griffin, and Matthew Fox (the last from a more mystical “Creation Spirituality” perspective). Philosopher Paul Brockelman came up with a pithy phrase for a panentheistic Divine: “the Beyond in our midst.” In Cosmology and Creation: The Spiritual Significance of Contemporary Cosmology (Oxford Univ. Press, 1999) he argues that both theologians and scientists are reaching a consensus: “God is neither nature itself nor located apart from it, but is available to mystical experience within it.” Perhaps it is better to say, in light of the more open "four-cornered" logic of the Eastern spiritual traditions, that God is both nature and beyond nature, and, as Brockelman suggests, neither nature nor beyond nature".

Hey GrandmasterP, That anti-"guru" rant sounds like a bit of a chip on the shoulder to me... granted many fakes have given the word a bad name but that does not mean that all gurus deserve it, which and for example is not that different from all the phony mediums that indirectly give the good ones a bad name. Btw, one's Mom is the first "guru".

maybe some hatha yoga in the meantime, most towns have some type of it going on... Om

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlgeLuaN61E

The blunt and basic math : One can not feed a demon without also becoming its meal. Btw, its a very difficult, horrific and painful crawl out of the demons belly to get back to what could be called a workable and wonderful "normal" state in comparison... even for those who don't believe in such non-sense. Sorry, but not really since there is no way to make such fuzzy or palatable. I do see something like advanced & terminal cancer as the only reason for taking a non-violent (as possible) and above-board-course to get one's personal affairs and responsibilities in as much order as one's ability allows before saying goodbye, otherwise one is one breaking with the laws of the lifeforce.

Chenping, Good fortune and discussions to you also :-)

Dwai, I did not know such reverse discrimanation was so deeply rooted! Thanks for posting the article. I see a true "caste system" as something that is of natural law, alas and like most anything else it to can become corrupted through various permutations and more or less become opposite to its original or natural place and purpose. (exceedingly so among mankind)

"Ultimately, Nirvana truly realized is Samsara properly understood." if you are of a Buddhist bent... There is no illusion per-se but there is perception that mistakes what it sees, so light-en the hell up and enjoy all that changes yet is connected to the changeless.