3bob

once doubt of spirit is completely removed fear and its brothers no longer act as master

I don't normally bug people in the Buddhist forum and they don'y normally bug me in the Vedanta forum which is agreeable... this time though I will say that according to Buddhist doctrine a "god" type being visited the historic buddha soon after his "beyond the beyond" realization and helped him remove his doubts abouts teaching same to the "world". (seems somewhat strange that an enlightened one would have such doubts and also need help from a god to make said decision?) (btw, considering how many various types of recognitions and remeberences there are to various Beings in Buddhism is there one for that god who choose to appear at the right time to suggest the right thing to Buddha which ended up helping countless Beings?)

"The Gods and the Goddesses, being dancers themselves, have been passing the art of the heavenly dance through many other human channels, whose aptitude, understanding, and personal idiosyncrasies naturally varied from person to person, and created a number of styles ranging from Odissi to Bharatanatyam. Classical Indian dance of Bharatanatyam has been undergoing a lot of change over the centuries. It used to be and is still mostly performed by women dancers. Centuries ago the Hindu temples in South India had dancers-priestesses called devadasis who would sing, dance Dasi Attam (old version of classical Indian dance), play many musical instruments. They were well-versed in Sanskrit and other languages as they had to adapt compositions to suit the audience. The devadasi tradition gradually degraded. Initially, devadasis lead a very strict and celibate life and were not allowed to have a family. As the dance entered the royal courts, the dancers were called Rajanartakis, who performed in the royal courts and gradually became royal concubines. The British colonial rule has completely corrupted the devadasi tradition.

Symbolism of Nataraja, The Lord Of The Universal Dance by Jayaram V "The symbolism of Siva Nataraja is religion, art and science merged as one. In God's endless dance of creation, preservation, destruction and paired graces is hidden a deep understanding of our universe. Aum Namah Sivaya. - Dancing with Siva Else where we have discussed the meaning and symbolism of the dance of Nataraja. In this article we will try to cover a few more aspects. Nataraja is Siva in the form of the Lord of the Dance. He represents the combined might of the dynamic universal energy and the awakened Brahman or Saguna Brahman. He is the source of all life, activity (chetana) and vibration (spandana). His dance is the dance of creation. The circle of fire that surrounds Him is His primal energy that flows out of Him and again into Him. The being lying at His feet is the jiva or the deluded soul whom he shapes through a painful process of karma and suffering and liberates Him in the end from bondage. His dance is rhythmic, regular and perfect. It is the Rtam (rhythm) of divine perfection, which is hidden in the entire universe as an underlying current or subtle vibration. It manifests itself in many things, in the regularity of the seasons, the movement of the planets, the cyclical nature of creation, the physical, chemical and biological laws of our universe, the biorhythms of our bodies and the constitution of our cells, molecules and atoms. The duality or multiplicity of objects in the image is for the beholder but in truth it is one complete image of the supreme Siva. Whatever that may appear to us as separate parts of one image is but an illusion that arises because of our experience of duality. The energy or shakti that manifests out of Him as a ring of fire is not separate from Him because it cannot hold itself or survive without Him. So is the apasmaramurthy under His feet. If you look carefully, the being is not separate from Siva. It is connected with Him as well as with the rest of the creation. The idea that he is suffering being crushed by the feet of Siva is an illusion of our minds, a projection of our thought and an idea that exists in our minds because when we look at the image of Nataraja we, as limited beings, identify ourselves with the apasmaramurthy lying at His feet, but not with Siva, the dancer. The circle of His energy starts from there and also ends there. There in lies the mystery. The whole of the image is an assurance to us that creation is not a chaotic and accidental phenomena but a guided and rhythmic movement under the mastery and control of the eternal self and that we too can become masters of our own movements and action by liberating ourselves from the limitations of smallness (anava) and delusion (apasmara)." (from http://www.saivism.net/articles/nataraja.asp ) Om

* Compiled from “Light on Patanjali Yoga Sutras” by Yogacharya B.K.S. Iyengar "To the noblest of Sages, Patanjali, who gave Yoga for serenity of mind, grammar for purity of speech, and medicine for the health of the body, I prostrate with folded hands. To this white Patanjali, who has a human form, holding conch, disc and sword and having a thousand heads, I bow. atanjali, undoubtedly the greatest expounder of Yoga, lived sometime between 500 and 200 B.C. The life of Patanjali is an enigma to modern historians, and almost nothing is known about this great Master who epitomizes Yoga. It is only with the help of legends that one can draw inferences about him. Undoubtedly he was a great Yoga adept and was perhaps the head of a school in which “Swadhyaya”, study of the Self, was regarded as an important aspect of spiritual practice. Indian history is presumptive of several individuals by the name of Patanjali. Three of them were well-known; the first one being the famous grammarian who wrote the commentary on Panini’s Ashtadhyayi (the Mahabhashya) and compiled the Yoga Sutras, the classical text on Raja Yoga. The Mahabhashya symbolises the perfection of the discipline in grammar. The object of grammar is to supply rules for control of current speech (laukika) for the preservation of the integrity of the Vedas and the comprehension of proper meaning. The second person named Patanjali wrote the Nidana-Sutras, considered indispensable for the study of the Vedic ritual literature; while the third was a well-known teacher of Samkhya Philosophy. The above three people, in the historian's view, happen to come from different time periods and are considered to be different personalities. The Indian Tradition however, differs in opinion strongly and advocates that the above different treatises were done by a single person and even further, attributes various medical treatises to him. In the Indian tradition, Patanjali is said to be self-born, swayambhu. He was a highly-evolved soul who incarnated of his own will in a human form to help humanity. He is also considered an incarnation of Ananta, the source of all wisdom (Jnana) and of Shesha, the thousand-headed ruler of the serpent race, which is thought to guard the hidden treasures of the earth. Ananta depicts a couch on which God Vishnu reclines. He is the Lord of serpents and his many heads symbolize Infinity or Omnipresence. Many yogis bow to Ananta before they begin their daily yogic practice. In one of the legends, it is said that Lord Vishnu was seated on Adishesha, the Lord of serpents as His couch, watching the enchanting dance of Lord Shiva. Lord Vishnu was so totally absorbed in the dance of Lord Shiva, that His body began to vibrate to its rhythm. This vibration made Him heavier and heavier, causing Adishesha to feel so uncomfortable that he was gasping for breath and was on the point of collapse. The moment the dance came to an end, Lord Vishnu’s body became light again. Adishesha was amazed and asked his master the cause of these stupendous changes. The Lord explained that the grace, beauty, majesty and grandeur of Lord Shiva’s dance had created corresponding vibrations in His own body, making it heavy. Marvelling at this, Adishesha professed a desire to learn dance so as to exalt his Lord. Vishnu then became thoughtful, and predicted that soon Lord Shiva would grace Adishesha to write a commentary on grammar, and that he would then also be able to devote himself to perfection in the art of dance. Adishesha was overjoyed by these words and looked forward to the descent of Lord Shiva’s grace. Adishesha then began to meditate to ascertain who would be his mother on earth. In meditation, he had the vision of a yogini by the name of Gonika who was praying for a worthy son to whom she could impart her knowledge and wisdom. He at once realized that she would be a worthy mother for him, and awaited an auspicious moment to become her son. Gonika, thinking that her earthly life was approaching its end, and that her desire of finding a worthy son would remain unfulfilled; now, as a last resort looked to the Sun God, the living witness of God on earth and prayed to Him to fulfil her desire. She took a handful of water as a final oblation to Him, closed her eyes and meditated on the Sun. As she was about to offer the water, she opened her eyes and looked at her palms. To her surprise, she saw a tiny snake moving in her palms, who soon took on a human form. This tiny male human being prostrated to Gonika and asked her to accept him as her son. This she did and named him Patanjali because her hands had been in the prayerful gesture (anjali) and he had fallen (pat) from heaven.* Another incidence is said to have happened in Chidambaram (also known as Thillai ) located about a hundred miles from Madras. Chidambaram is considered to be one of the holiest temples in India. In this temple, Lord Nataraja is present in his cosmic-dancing form. The story goes that once in Darukavanam, Shiva wished to teach a lesson to the Rishis who were proud of their learning. Shiva took the form of a mendicant with a begging bowl in hand, accompanied by Vishnu disguised as Mohini. The rishipatnis (wives of the Rishis) were attracted by the sight of this beautiful pair. The Rishis grew angry and tried to destroy the pair. They performed a sacrificial fire and raised a tiger from the fire, which sprang at Shiva. Shiva pealed off the skin of the tiger and wrapped it round his waist. Then again the Rishis sent a poisonous serpent and Shiva tied it round his neck. Then the Rishis sent against Shiva an Apasmara Purusha, Muyalaka, whom Lord Shiva crushed by pressing him to the ground with his foot. At this, the Rishis confessed defeat and Shiva started to dance before all the Gods and Rishis. Lord Adishesha heard the description of Shiva’s dance at Darukavanam from Vishnu and requested Vishnu to allow him to witness the dance himself. Vishnu agreed to this. Adishesha performed penance and prayed to Shiva to allow him to see the dance. Being pleased with his penance, Shiva appeared to him and promised that he would dance at Tillai (Chidambaram). Accordingly, Adishesha was born as a human being, as Patanjali, and went to the forest of Tillai. At this time a certain sage, Vyaghrapada, also lived in this forest. Vyaghrapada was the son of Madhyandina Rishi who lived on the banks of the Ganga. He came to the South under the directions of his father and started praying to the Swayambhulinga under a banyan tree near a tank in this Tillai forest. He used to collect flowers for puja and he prayed for the boon of getting tiger’s feet and claws, so that he could easily climb up the trees and pluck plenty of flowers. He also prayed for the eyes of bees, so that he could collect the flowers before any bee could taste the honey in them. His prayer for these two blessings was granted, and since he had the feet of a tiger, he was called Vyaghrapada. Each constructed his own hermitage, Patanjali at Ananteeswaram and Vyaghrapada at Tirupuleeswaram in Chidambaram. They started worshipping Shiva in the form of the Swayambhulinga in Tillai forest. Days passed and when the time came for Shiva to give them Darshan, the guardian Goddess of the place, Kalika Devi, interfered and did not allow Shiva to give His Darshan. Shortly afterwards, Shiva and Devi agreed that they should participate in a dance contest and that the winner should have undisputed possession of Tillai. So the dance started. At one moment during the dance, the Lord’s earrings fell down, but the Lord took them up from the floor in such a way that nobody could notice the loss and the recovery. This dance is called Urdhva Tandavam in which Shiva defeated Kalika Devi. Now Nataraja performed the Ananda Tandavam, i.e. the Dance of Bliss, in the presence of Shivakamasundari and all the Gods and Rishis, and at the same time fulfilled the wish of the two devotees, Patanjali and Vyaghrapada, by allowing them to witness it and thus satisfying them. Another story tells that once upon a time Nandi, Shiva’s carrier, would not allow Patanjali Muni to have Darshan of Lord Shiva (Nataraja of Chidambaram). In order to reach Lord Shiva, Patanjali, with his mastery over grammatical forms, spontaneously composed a prayer in praise of the Lord without using any extended (Dirgha) syllable, (without Charana and Shringa) i.e. leg and horn, to tease Nandi. Shiva was quickly pleased, gave Darshan to the devotee and danced to the lilting tune of this song. These three short legends throw some light upon Patanjali and his greatness. Today unfortunately even Patanjali’s lineage does not appear to exist anymore. Patanjali’s life is obscure, with precise details about his place of birth, life and personality missing; this uncertainty however does not detract the great merit of the Patanjali Yoga-Sutras. It is the most condensed traditional outline of the yogic path and should be studied in depth by all serious students of Yoga. Yogacharya B.K.S Iyengar, who is definitely one of the greatest exponents of Patanjali Yoga Sutras, is responsible for shedding much light on the greatness of Patanjali and his writings. It is his great vision that brought to the forefront, the science of Patanjali Yoga Sutras and its benefit to our daily lives." " Attainment is when the body has been conquered, not forgotten." - B.K.S. Iyengar

Some web information with links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali

K, Are you still interested in the information from the American yoga guy you posted on awhile back? Anyway, who knows how many eons ago the "new age" started, thus nothing really new to it just more permutations which are to be expected in everything and or most everyone since the big bang.

If the question goes directly to the Buddhist section then put it there. As for fools such is a role we have all played at one time or another but to keep repeating the role once learned from is a compounding of foolishness. By the way what is the date of your Karmapa quote, I know nothing of that person (?) but I have studied many other first hand or eyewitness accounts concerning Oshso. (have you?) For instance: "...Rajneesh often asked women half his age to strip in front of him so that he could "feel their chakras." To facilitate this practice, he installed an electric lock on his bedroom door that could be activated from a button on his desk. Rajneesh groped the breasts of two of my female friends and "felt the chakras" of a third. I soon began to realize that like so many other girl grabbing Indian gurus who had made the headlines, Rajneesh on the human level was just an ordinary sexually immature Indian male. My lady friend who suffered the chakra feeling incident was so put off that she never came back to see him again. He had told her "Don't worry. You are mine now." That grasping statement had chilled her as much as the sexual advance. The young woman was a student of Indian music and had previously been sexually exploited by a famous Indian musician. She knew first hand what many Indian men were like. Rajneesh proved himself to be predictably and disappointingly the same. After Rajneesh started having sexual intercourse on a regular basis, the spiritual need for him to "feel the chakras" of his female disciples mysteriously vanished. Rajneesh rationalized having sex with his female disciples by claiming that the act would bless them so much that they would become enlightened in some future lifetime. His admission years later that there is no such thing as reincarnation made his sexual rationalizations appear even more ridiculous and self-serving". "In the years after Osho's death, the Poona ashram has been turned into a "cashram" and is run for profit. Color Puncture, Tantric Tarot, encounter groups, and every crackpot scam in the book is being peddled by Osho disciples for large sums of money. I think back to the day when the just turned 40 year old Acharya Rajneesh instructed a Japanese woman that "Meditation must not be made into a business." The corrupt means have gotten so far out of hand that the original intent of the ends has long been forgotten. It would be wonderful to believe that enlightened men were perfect in every way. That would make life simpler and sweeter, but it would be fiction, not fact". Both excerpts from, 1998 Christopher Calder

a little "Osho" background http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack

getting schools mixed up in this string and even equating a fallen and twisted Osho with true yogis reflects the tendency of westernized mix-ups and or misunderstandings about same.

I'd comment that we do nothing except by the power of Spirit and part of that Spirit is the "still small voice" which does know vice from virtue, dharma from anti-dharma and in that sense guides one or soul to do correctly... or not miss the mark.

Lord Siva as Lord Nataraja dances here on earth and everywhere else in all realms at once... and part of that dance is revealing Grace. Om

The meaning I was getting at is called Grace; Grace from the Self to the Self through Sat Guru, thus a type of help beyond even that of the great heavenly realms. Preparation is important and there a hundred thousand forms of that type of help and discipline but...

It is that which we can not work out by ourselves, although "ultimately" or the "absolute" is non-duality...

Hello Dreamlight Fugitive, Although not addressed to me I think you have given/shared a great many reflections, thus thank you very much! I may have missed it somewhere in your texts and or the texts of others, but my (rhetorical like) question to you and others here is if there is one key meaning no one has mentioned even though getting close to it in many ways of important preparation... it is commonly alluded to by one or two words, by the way I believe most of its sisters or 1st cousins have already been mentioned, for instance one of them being love... Om

in the meantime dharma is noble... and lots of work is pending.

Sounds like lots of private and or advanced yogi stuff so maybe more private communications for such details would be in order? I don't know of any good guru or advanced student that goes to the general public with private details and experiences, (thus they speak in an introductory way for the public) Imo this site is largely public with some folks maybe checking out Hinduism for the first time only to hear arguments and then perhaps miss the simple beauty of the revealed teachings and move on... Om

"Enlightenment to me, Complete establishment, in and as That (The Absolute) with all ego/illusion tendencies stilled or whipped out, all Nadi's Open, Love, Bi-Location and various other miraculous abilities..." Choose dharma and it may choose you, otherwise certain pursuits might become harmful speculation, extrapolation and projection.

http://www.vedamantram.com/audio/Nirvanashatkam.mp3 Om

when one is singing or dancing fully there is no room left for bitching or half-heartedly hobbling about... Om

Thanks also and to the Chandogya Upanishad and all those that have realized it and transmitted it meanings across and through time as best as they possibly could... Om

You are welcome Jeff

Hello ॐDominicusॐ When you said, "Surrender/letting Go is HUGE!!!!!! Also has sign posts along the way til eventually, swoosh down the nadi until there is no more you" That translates or interprets to me that the mentally or emotionally constructed or limited "you" which acts as a veil over the true you is no longer in power; thus the true you/us which never really left Itself nor went anywhwere and which is not dependent upon nadis or pranas or such things meets Itself! (since all other such things, which It is not (or neti, neti) spring from It, as is very well alluded to in the Upanishads. Om

bump, don't remember where this footnote is from but found it to be useful...perhaps someone else will to? "Footnotes: 125:2 The eighth Prapâthaka seems to form a kind of appendix to the Upanishad. The highest point that can be reached by speculation had been reached in the seventh Prapâthaka, the identity of our self and of everything else with the Highest Self. This speculative effort, however, is too much for ordinary people. They cannot conceive the Sat or Brahman as out of space and time, as free from all qualities, and in order to help them, they are taught to adore the Brahman, as it appears in space and time, an object endowed with certain qualities, living in nature and in the human heart. The Highest Brahman, besides which there is nothing, and which can neither be reached as an object, nor be considered as an effect, seems to ordinary minds like a thing which is not. Therefore while the true philosopher, after acquiring the knowledge of the Highest Sat, becomes identified with it suddenly, like lightning, the ordinary mortal must reach it by slow degrees, and as a preparation for that higher knowledge which is to follow, the eighth Prapâthaka, particularly the first portion of it, has been added to the teaching contained in the earlier books. 126:1 The ether in the heart is really a name of Brahman. He is there, and therefore all that comes of him when he assumes bodily shapes, both what is and what is not, i.e. what is no longer or not yet; for the absolute nothing is not intended here. 127:1 I translate this somewhat differently from the commentator, though the argument remains the same. 127:2 True desires are those which we ought to desire, and the fulfilment of which depends on ourselves, supposing that we have acquired the knowledge which enables us to fulfil them".