3bob

folks, that old song did come to mind... :)

samsara correctly seen is nirvana... always liked that one

An anti-guru, guru is ignorant of true and free guru, among many other related things. (and to go on and on about such compounds such ignorance)

I meant the J.K. before his contact with the theosophical society as in: "Family background and childhood: Jiddu Krishnamurti was born on 11 May 1895 in the small town of Madanapalle in Madras Presidency (modern-day Chittoor District in Andhra Pradesh). He came from a family of Telugu-speaking Brahmins. In accordance with common Hindu practice, as the eighth child who happened to be male, he was named after the Hindu deity Krishna. Krishnamurti's father, Jiddu Narayaniah, was employed as an official of the then colonial British administration. Krishnamurti was fond of his mother Sanjeevamma, who died when he was ten. His parents had a total of eleven children, of whom six survived childhood. As was common among pious high-caste Hindus, the family was keenly observant of traditional customs and religious practices"

Another how can: How can a J. Krishnamurti come to put down of his own Indian roots and more or less spend the rest of his life going-on-and-on about being an anti-guru guru?

There will always be problems or complications when comparing various teachers or schools... do not expect to find 100% agreement among or between any of them concerning all teachings or doctrines - even in similar sub-sects or similar non-sectairan groups who are said to have self-realized founders, thus saving yourself a lot of beating your brains out against the wall ! btw, after reading ten thousand volumes from a thousand teachers "mum" is still the word

Agreed, most of the various and well recognized "Hindu" sects have silghtly or more than slightly different ways... yet none should not get hung about such being that they are part of the very broad and wonderful world of Hinduism.

Apporaching this subject from the teachings of or related to Lord Nataraja could give people a better concept or handle compared to where some might just chuck it as mumbo jumbo or to far out to deal with... A short quote: "The Origin of the Nataraj Form: An extraordinary iconographic representation of the rich and diverse cultural heritage of India, it was developed in southern India by 9th and 10th century artists during the Chola period (880-1279 CE) in a series of beautiful bronze sculptures. By the 12th century AD, it achieved canonical stature and soon the Chola Nataraja became the supreme statement of Hindu art. The Vital Form & Symbolism: In a marvelously unified and dynamic composition expressing the rhythm and harmony of life, Nataraj is shown with four hands represent the cardinal directions. He is dancing, with his left foot elegantly raised and the right foot on a prostrate figure — 'Apasmara Purusha', the personification of illusion and ignorance over whom Shiva triumphs. The upper left hand holds a flame, the lower left hand points down to the dwarf, who is shown holding a cobra. The upper right hand holds an hourglass drum or 'dumroo' that stands for the male-female vital principle, the lower shows the gesture of assertion: "Be without fear." Snakes that stand for egotism, are seen uncoiling from his arms, legs, and hair, which is braided and bejeweled. His matted locks are whirling as he dances within an arch of flames representing the endless cycle of birth and death. On his head is a skull, which symbolizes his conquest over death. Goddess Ganga, the epitome of the holy river Ganges, also sits on his hairdo. His third eye is symbolic of his omniscience, insight, and enlightenment. The whole idol rests on a lotus pedestal, the symbol of the creative forces of the universe. The Significance of Shiva's Dance: This cosmic dance of Shiva is called 'Anandatandava,' meaning the Dance of Bliss, and symbolizes the cosmic cycles of creation and destruction, as well as the daily rhythm of birth and death. The dance is a pictorial allegory of the five principle manifestations of eternal energy — creation, destruction, preservation, salvation, and illusion. According to Coomerswamy, the dance of Shiva also represents his five activities: 'Shrishti' (creation, evolution); 'Sthiti' (preservation, support); 'Samhara' (destruction, evolution); 'Tirobhava' (illusion); and 'Anugraha' (release, emancipation, grace). The overall temper of the image is paradoxical, uniting the inner tranquility, and outside activity of Shiva"

Khandogya Upanishad, VII Prapathaka, 24th Khanda. 24. 1. Where one sees nothing else, hears nothing else, understands nothing else, that is the Infinite. Where one sees something else, hears something else, understands something else, that is the finite. The Infinite is immortal, the finite is mortal. Sir, in what does the Infinite rest? In its own greatness - or not even in greatness. 2. In the world they call cows and horses, elephants and gold, slaves, wives, fields and houses greatness. I do not mean this, thus he spoke; for in that case one being (the possessor) rests in something else, (but the Infinite cannot rest in something different from itself) 25. 1. The Infinite indeed is below, above, behind, before, right and left--it is indeed all this. Now follows the explanation of the Infinite as the I: I am below, I am above, I am behind, before, right and left--I am all this. 2. Next follows the explanation of the Infinite as the Self: Self is below, above, behind, before, right and left - Self is all this. He who sees, perceives, and understands this, loves the Self, delights in the Self, revels in the Self, rejoices in the Self--he becomes a Svarag, (an autocrat or self-ruler) he is lord and master in all the worlds. But those who think differently from this, live in perishable worlds, and have other beings for their rulers. 26. 1. To him who sees, perceives, and understands this, the spirit (prana) springs from the Self, hope springs from the Self, memory springs from the Self; so do ether, fire, water, appearance and disappearance, food, power, understanding, reflection, consideration, will, Mind, speech, names, sacred hymns, and sacrifices--aye, all this springs from the Self. 2. There is this verse, "He who sees this, does not see death, nor illness, nor pain; he who sees this, sees everything, and obtains everything everywhere. "He is one (before creation), he becomes three (fire, water, earth), he becomes five, he becomes seven, he becomes nine; then again he is called the eleventh, and hundred and ten and one thousand and twenty." When the intellectual aliment has been purified, the whole nature becomes purified. When the whole nature has been purified, the memory becomes firm. And when the memory (of the Highest Self) remains firm, then all the ties (which bind us to a belief in anything but the Self) are loosened. ...

While waiting try this out: The prayer of St. Francis Lord, make me an instrument of your peace, Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy; O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

There is a subtle connection and or interface... Om is connected in sound and in roaring silence... The word Brahma (without an n) means God-creator, while Atman is not always used the same but depends on context and or the way a particular school uses it.

Prana (or life force) Copied From the Atharva Veda., XI, 4. 1. Praise to the Breath of Life! He rules this world, master of all things, on which all things are based. 2. Praise, Breath of Life, to your uproar! Praise to your thunder! Praise to your lightning! Praise, Breath of Life, for your rain! 3. When Breath of Life with his thunder roars o'er the plants, then, pregnant with pollen, the flowers burst forth in abundance. 4. When Breath of Life in due season roars o'er the plants, all things on earth rejoice with great rejoicing. 5. When Breath of Life the broad earth with rain bedews, the cattle exult: "We shall have plenty," they say. 6. The plants converse with this Breath, drenched by his moisture: "Our life is prolonged, for you have made us all fragrant." 7. Praise to you, Breath, when you come and praise when you go! When you stand up and when you sit still, to you praise! 8. Praise to you, Breath of Life, breathing both in and out! To your turning this side and that, to the whole of you, praise! 9. Grant us, O Breath, your dear form and the one dearer still that we may live! Give us your healing power! 10. Breath of Life clothes all beings with care as a father his son; master of all things, whether they breathe or breathe not. 11. Breath of Life is death, is fever, revered by the Gods. In the highest world he sets the man who speaks truth. 12. Breath of Life is Queen, is Guide, revered by all things; he is sun, he is moon; he is also the Father of all. 13. The two breaths are rice and barley, Breath the ox that pulls. In barley resides i inbreath; out-breath is called rice. 14. A man breathes in, he breathes out, within the womb. Quickened by you, to birth he comes once more. 15. The mighty Wind they call him, or Breeze. The future and the past exist in him. On Breath of Life all things are based. 16. When you, Breath of Life, quicken them, then the plants of the Atharvans and Angirases, of Gods and of Men, come to birth. 17. When Breath has poured down with the rain upon the vast earth, then plants come forth and herbs of every sort. 18. The one who knows you thus, O Breath, and that which forms your support, to him will all offer tribute in yonder highest heaven. 19. Just as all creatures owe tribute to you, Breath of Life, so may they bring it to the one who hears you, O renowned! 20. He moves among the Gods, an inner seed; becomes, is, is reborn. He has entered the son he, the father, who was, is, and shall be! 21. If the sunbird, rising, extracted his foot from the sea, neither today nor tomorrow would exist, neither night, day, nor dawn. 22. The eight--wheeled moves on one rim, to and fro, thousand-syllabled. With one half it engendered all creation. Of its other half what sign? 23. Of all that is born is he Lord, of all that moves. Of swift bow like the rest, to you, O Breath of Life, homage! 24. Of all that is born is he Lord, of all that moves. Untiring he, steadfast; may my prayer bring Breath to my aid! 25. Erect he keeps watch among the sleeping. he falls not prone. None ever heard that he among the sleepers should slumber. 26. Breath of Life, do not forsake me. You are, indeed, I. Like the Embryo of the Waters I bind you to me that I may live!" end

is Enlightenment, not suffering.

Thanks Boy... and Mark I think your point of: "My point here is that Gautama's four truths regarding suffering did not begin with "life is suffering", as many people have been led to believe", was and is very important in meaning!

What the Buddha said is what the Buddha said, what the Buddha realized is what the Buddha realized.... and are not enough. (except as pointers)

The Koan ducks

? yet you did...

Who is the process of evolution?

.

"When have the ducks ever flown away?"

Along related lines "To be or not to be" is a human invention/mentation...

Well my post was a loaded one with a lot meant in a few words, but if there are no particular questions, refutations, comments of interest or add-ons of then what is to be said?

Take your dog for a refreshing walk in the morning, evening or whenever...

...and forget about gaining power for yourself.

"Only Nothing can enter in to no-space."