3bob

Indeed! well quoted

but isn't that a relative and changing reality, besides if one knows they are full of it then one is not really that full of it, even to the point of being empty, an empty which is also full although not a full or empty related to our gas tanks of gas sold at prices inflated by the anti-christ.

Udana 8.3 "There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. (or namely that which changes, my insert) But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned". Thus the "not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned" (btw a cyclic, eternal change is also not mentioned above) thus that which can not change and is not changable - either eternally or temporarily is pointed to by the founder of Buddhsim which in my reading refutes the commentaries you quote, commentaries which forget or change the import of this sutta to fit their school. A common type of problem in all ways or religions.

------------ Xabir knows enough to sound plausible which may although I'm not sure make him one of the more dangerous people when it comes to misinterpretation of Sanatana Dharma, yet unlike certain others I think he trys to follow "right speech" and I'd also tend to believe by the studies he has mentioned that he recognizes the contribution of the "7th liberation" as taught to the historic Buddha by his Vedic based or related teachers. (Btw, Sanatana Dharma does not stop at the 7th liberation even though it is often dismissed as doing so by some) An Isa upanishad teaching for your consideration: (a problem not only limited to "Hindusim") ".... 9. Into a blind darkness they enter who are devoted to ignorance (rituals); but into a greater darkness they enter who engage in knowledge of a deity alone. 10. One thing, they say, is obtained from knowledge; another, they say, from ignorance. Thus we have heard from the wise who have taught us this. 11. He who is aware that both knowledge and ignorance should be pursued together, overcomes death through ignorance and obtains immortality through knowledge. 12. Into a blind darkness they enter who worship only the unmanifested prakriti; but into a greater darkness they enter who worship the manifested Hiranyagarbha. 13. One thing, they say, is obtained from the worship of the manifested; another, they say, from the worship of the unmanifested. Thus we have heard from the wise who taught us this. 14. He who knows that both the unmanifested prakriti and the manifested Hiranyagarbha should be worshipped together, overcomes death by the worship of Hiranyagarbha and obtains immortality through devotion to prakriti..." Om

Xabir, It seems you would (or could) blow many "Buddhist" mind-sets with sayings such as: "...the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature..." Anyway that is a plausible deduction from such considering all the water that has passed under the bridge...namely a mind blowing given from one of their own. Om

The very young Buddhist schools (2500 years is less than an eyeblink) borrowed ideas like that from the old schools. (Hehehe)

I'd say there is no future attainment that is coming down the road, the past and the future are all just one big bundle right now, although to conditioned mind they appear to be spread out over time, for only now is fast enough to stand still yet still seeing everything and no-thing. Om p.s. which is just gobbledy-gook from a 3d perspective

What do you know an agreement... Various mind powers are only tools, and may come into play if a true need for their use is merited. Full enlightenment is the truth of an unbreakable power, for all lesser powers or tools and their potential misusers can be broken. Om

"...we are present, no time, no space" Hey MH, a suggestion if you will (?) consider all time and and all space recognition as a prerequisite sychronization before wading into further gobbledy-gook... btw, the implosion of all time, space and the ocean of light is not exactly no time, no space, no ocean and no recogniton - for their is an underlying awareness of the explosion, implosion, etc. which all have an unbreakable connection. Om p.s. TTC. 21, "...And yet It contains within Itself a Core of Vitality. The Core of Vitality is very real, It contains within Itself an unfailing Sincerity..."

pure light is not enough, although it is a lot.

"...I say, if you're enlightened, prove it to me. Appear in my living room. Take me to another plane, or take me shopping in Bombay for a day trip. Heal some people, walk on water, or even just levitate for a while.. or better yet, appear to me in the astral plane and show me something I've never seen before..." none of which proves anything close to enlightenment... for certain demons can and also have done such things.

Part of what I hear being talked about is a process, a process of decay that all major and minor ways and peoples can become prone to unless kept new by masterly stewardship. And of course none of the "eastern", "mystical" or "natural" schools or ways are automatically exempt from such decay just because... Thus some of these names are often inter-changeable in meaning at some time or place but the underlying process will go on for these various ways with either a rising through wisdom or falling through lack of same. Such is not unique to our time or any other time, place or to most of the peoples who have ever existed, and to get to obessed about or stuck on the names is to often miss what is going on in process and its brass tacks meaning.

In a certain state of realization one sees creations coming and going which to me is simialr to the saying, "nirvana is samsara, correctly understood" - Nagarjuna. Obviously I don't mind quotes now and then, for instance here are some more along these lines: "To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality; to assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality. The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth. Stop talking and thinking and there is nothing you will not be able to know". by Hsin Hsin Ming and or, Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form. Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form. Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void. Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation. by Yutang Lin

My take: The liberations (8 depending on how various schools count?) spoken of in Buddhist doctrine are all connected, including the "beyond the beyond"... thus through and with these connections compassion is working at or with the various liberations if one can only see it working. (the same as it works through and with the Noble Eight fold path) For if compassion were only limited to and only worked at the "beyond the beyond" with the rest of the liberations being cut-off from it then such would be reduced to meaningless beatings around the bush - which is not the way I take the teachings about same. Om

Yes, I've heared that story. Parts of your agenda seem to be given through your opinions; for instance when you said, "And thus, very few compassionate beings traverse the Earth" such is an obvious error passed off as some kind of wisdom, (?) for there are such beings at every turn if one can only see. Om

Vmarco, why do you get off on acting like such an asshole? (regardless of what you know or don't know)

tangent... Non-duality is when a guy only has one testicle remaining, and if he becomes unattached to that then he experiences a type of void.

Some "women" might take that as as a form of male patronizing...? What is a woman or a man anyway, they are Beings. And some other stuff for consideration if one is inclined to do so: "The full-length Dharmakshema version of the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra, in contrast, insists that even the icchantika can eventually find release into Nirvana, since no phenomenon is fixed (including this type of allegedly deluded person) and that change for the better and best is always a possibility. Other scriptures (such as the Lankavatara Sutra) indicate that the icchantikas will be saved through the liberational power of the Buddha - who, it is claimed, will never abandon any being". From Zen: A. [A student] asked: "Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: "It does not." [The student] said: "Everything has Buddha-nature, from the Buddhas above to the ants below. Why does a dog not have it?" The master said, "Because it has the nature of karmically conditioned consciousness." B. [A student] asked: "Does an oak tree also have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: "It has." [The student] said: "Then when will it become a Buddha?" The master said: "When the sky falls to the earth." [The student] said: "When will the sky fall to the earth?" The master said: "When the oak tree becomes a Buddha." C. [A student] asked: "Does a dog have Buddha-nature or not?" The master said: The [road] in front of every house leads to Ch'ang-an [the capital]." Om

Without the eons of aid at every turn from their Mother there would be no actualized Buddhas.

Ok, Santi (and Susan was/is one of his co-hearts) Btw, Santi very certainly talked about the "other side" and his experiences of such far more and in greater detail than I ever have! It's true that I don't remember him trying to impose or force such views on others even if it was/is a major part of his activities which are also related to his "techniques". Also I don't remember trying to impose or force any of my views on you in a fanatical type way but you seem to insist that I somehow am?? Kate, those wishes include you and or anyone else here if they are hoped for or accepted. Note: In my last post there was the prefix of "Op" which was directed at the original poster along the lines of peace, rest and recovery. Bob

The other side of the veil to use an additional term, which most of the highly qualified people you alluded to earlier would probably have some experience with being that such is in or part of the realms of energy. (I believe Susan, who spoke of same, was one of your teachers was she not?) As far as me using the word "fact" that should have been put in the context of those that it is fact to which is recorded or documented as being great numbers of well known and well respected people and teachers who have existed at some time during thousands of years of mankinds recorded history who also come from all types of cultures and spiritual backgrounds or ways where direct experience of same is not dismissed. Do as you will Kate. Op - Peace, rest and recovery to you.

Umm, I do care or I would not have given that warning, a warning which you added your personal interpretation to which was not where I was trying to come from, although I understand your take which some other people might also have. Thus I will attempt to clairify my meaning: The karma of suicide does not end pain, it increases it and adds torment and suffering on both sides so to speak, but since after such an act a person no longer has a physical body to work with and they have gone against the ways of the life-force then there is a karmic price to pay which is much higher and also much more difficult to work with while on the other side - compared to the possibilities of working with one's problems on this side before such an act. Karma works exactingly on both sides so it is not a matter of the so called "other side" giving orders or its coercion that is doing anything, it is a person mistakenly tyring to kill themselves to end pain which greatly increases pain. (when they then find themselves in a much worse karmic situation on the other side) Peace

This may not be a kindly or gentle comment but suicide will make any problems you have now look minor in comparison to when you get on the 'other side' and have to pay for such an act that you mistakenly think or believe will end your pain, I say that from certain experiences that it doesn't end the pain - it greatly increases the pain with even more ways of torment and suffering. Did anyone mention prayer? Not only can people on this side give you many forms of help but you can also be spiritually helped by noble and great spirits like Quan Yin. Peace

If you have "problems" with that then how is it you don't have problems with your professing of the TTC which from your often described way of seeing things also has similar problems? Thus to me many of your debates or points are very incongruent based on such a record, yet I otherwise apprecaite your general demeaner and often kind contributions to discussions. Om